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badger · #81 Post by **badger** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:50 pm

Richy, I wasn't referring just to the engine ecu on a bmw/landrover. There are a lot of settings that can be altered within the body computer (BCU) on a discovery, such as get-you-to-the-door lights on, activation of extra fit items (heated windscreen, heated seats), total closure options, alarm flash/chirp options etc etc, your logic would suggest that if you bought the discovery new then you should have the right to alter these settings and should be provided therefore with a £10k system to do so, with every vehicle. It's not as simple as just taking a backup, what if someone takes a backup, adjusts things to the point of lean running causing excessive detonation (in an attempt to eek out another couple of mpg) then when the engine fails they simply re-load the original saved backup and pick up the phone complaining "your gas system has damaged my engine"? Where does that leave me, as the installer? I can't prove when the map was uploaded. You personally may be more than capable of remapping correctly, but how do I know that? Are you going to pay me the 4 or 5 hours labour involved in checking out your history and credentials before deciding if you are "safe" to have the leads etc? No, I thought not. An installer buys the lead and software once only, as that is all he needs, the cost is not added to every installation as you suggest. As for the contents thread, I did try to help, but the info provided was scant to say the least, with no mention of system type. I told what could be done if it was a Leo/Millenium as that is a system that I install and am familiar with.

richy_boy · #82 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:05 pm

No Brian, again you would be buying a CAR which is not designed to be modified by the end user, although many of the newer cars can be. That's a slightly different purchase than a generic LPG system, which HAS to be tuned upon installation and can be further improved by taking down a rolling road for better results. I'm not saying I should be given a dongle and cable with the kit, but I should be able to buy one off the shelf with LPGA interegation, and if necessary waving all responsibility to the install for 'sound running'. What if my car was our of warranty? No one is liable for the damage anymore... yet does it suddenly become possible to purchase this kit? Nope. Does the LPG ECU really not log the date the MAP was uploaded or modified? If so, I can 100% see your point, but I can't believe someone would create such a shoddy system!? Good man for helping out that user with the gauge issue, as I posted, mine too is a bit iffy so would be keen to find out how (if possible) to resolve it without driving 100miles to my original installer. (again) <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> We're going around in circles here, and what were discussing has nothing to do with pistons melting so I'm going to bite my tongue and stop replying. I might start up my own thread to argue this out, yet I fear neither of us will concede the other is right, we're simply opposite sides of a coin, you want no liability, yet I want control and responsibility over my cars fuelling. Rich

steve_96 · #83 Post by **steve_96** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:10 pm

Richard, sorry, my interest in this thread has completely evaporated. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

classicswede · #84 Post by **classicswede** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:58 pm

Richard if you were on a dream system I would be happy to let you come over and work on the map of your own car. I would however agree with the other installers here on the dongle subject. There are some feature that are accessable that you have severe consequences so you should not have access to one. Mike

richy_boy · #85 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:24 pm

I'm no longer discussing this topic on this thread, brian has opened another to discuss. I would point out that my car is my pride and joy. If I didn't understand 100% what I was about to change.. I wouldn't change it. Rich

sm200sx · #86 Post by **sm200sx** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:39 am

I can see both sides. Back to the computer comparison, where a small business may buy a linux server, installed by a 3rd party with a manitaince contract. Would you give them root access if they had no IT department? Just 2 sales reps, the boss and a secutary ... If they had a capable IT person you would buy a system and want root access. Rich - there are plenty of people that THINK they would be capable of tuning their own LPG system, then blow it up and blame the installer, you know thats true, as do I.

richy_boy · #87 Post by **richy_boy** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:48 am

I do indeed Kev, I, however am not one of them and will probably get it tuned on a rolling road by professionals - however I can't as it stands at present. Again, my whinging has been moved to a new thread.. although Brian and I have found a common interest so have just been nattering about tuning more than anything else <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Rich

volvo940 · #88 Post by **volvo940** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:53 pm

I haven't commented yet because I've been too upset. This is addressed to all the inflated ego's that think us mere mortals are incompetent fools If you fit a system to my car, I twiddle with it and blow it up the engine, will you replace my engine? If you fit a system to my car, I don't touch it and it blows up the engine will you replace my engine? If you answer yes to the second question, you probably will accend and sit at god's right hand! Do you think with a couple of hours max setting up the ecu that you can do a better job than I, who can easily spend weeks fine tuning the system, if I'm given ALL THE INFO that you are given from the manufacturer and access software/cables etc. As for the megasquirt question. Had I not got the software and lead for my AEB175 I would have ripped it out and replaced it with my own, I may still do as it is an extreamly basic bit of kit. I play with microcontrolers, here is somthing I did years ago <a href="http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/ ... cuit%2Ehtm" target=_top>http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/ ... t%2Ehtm</a> A good example of thinking "out of the box" as the controler executes instructions at 5 MHz but counts up to 50 MHz Peter Cousens

sm200sx · #89 Post by **sm200sx** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:23 pm

This is the key point, and a well made one. Do you think with a couple of hours max setting up the ecu that you can do a better job than I, who can easily spend weeks fine tuning the system, if I'm given ALL THE INFO that you are given from the manufacturer and access software/cables etc.

badger · #90 Post by **badger** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:34 pm

Hello Peter. I don't consider myself to have an inflated ego, more a sound sense of self-protection! In answer to your questions:- 1, No way! 2, Yes, if it was a direct result of my installation; if it was an equipment failure that caused it then it'd probably end up in a legal battle to get the manufacturer to pay up. Cont'd.....

badger · #91 Post by **badger** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:35 pm

....cont'd. The whole basic point of this "who gets the leads" issue is this:- There are many out there who genuinely know what they are doing, but (and it's a big but!) for every 1 that knows and is responsible, there must be at least 10 to 15 that haven't got a clue or aren't interested. I'll ask the question that I've already asked again - how can we decide who is "safe" to have the software and leads? On what criteria do we base our decisions? Are we to stick to giving them only to people who have at least done a gas installer's course, that might be a safeguard for us? Ah, that's what we seem to be doing! If I do an installation, I WILL NOT supply leads and software whilst the installation is within warranty, (unless the customer signs away their warranty, and no-one has done so as yet), purely to safeguard myself. Are you one of the extremely rare few that would put your hands up and admit if you'd adjusted something and caused an engine problem, or are you of the majority who would simply say "I never touched it, you must have done it", when it came to the crunch? Would you be honest enough to accept the fact and pay out say, £2k for an engine, or would you try to avoid spending your own money, with no way for me to prove otherwise? Now, if the system is set up correctly at the time of installation, there is absolutely NO NEED to fine-tune anything, especially with SGI as it's only following the self-mapping of the original vehicle ecu (in most cases), and anything that you or I adjust will merely result in identical fuelling but with a fractional shift in the base mapping. There is a case for fine-tuning with the likes of the leo, adjusting overrun cut-off values and contents indications for example, but that's about all. Oh, and FWIW, I spend nearer to 4 or 5 hours ensuring that an SGI system is correctly mapped!

volvo940 · #92 Post by **volvo940** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:22 pm

Brian, if I came to you for an install I would insist that I could/would buy the nessasary gear to twiddle (as someone put it). Unless your garage was next door to my house, with agreement to sell the gear if you moved. I would not sign a non warranty agreement. Why should I? If I had the gear you would simply argue that I had done the damage myself (see last paragraph). If a part failed that was obviously not my fault I would expect it to be replaced free of charge within the warranty peroid, regardless of how worn my thumbs were. Come to think of it what part of the lpg system could I, break that would be not as easy to break without the software/leads? You answered yes to question 2? I beg to differ, You infact said "Yes, if it was a direct result of my installation" And I assume that's "Yes, IN MY OPINION if it was a direct result of my installation" or did you mean something else?

badger · #93 Post by **badger** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:37 pm

< Brian, if I came to you for an install I would insist that I could/would buy the nessasary gear to twiddle (as someone put it). Unless your garage was next door to my house, with agreement to sell the gear if you moved. I would not sign a non warranty agreement. > In which case, I wouldn't be doing your conversion then. I'm not that desparate for money that I would take the risk of you coming back with problems that you MAY have caused. <if> And how could you prove you hadn't, when we both knew you'd been twiddling? See where I'm coming from now? There isn't an issue with replacing failed parts, of course they are covered, the issue is unauthorised adjusting of the fuelling leading to engine damage. If you came to me with a melted piston and there were no component failures and you had no way of accessing or adjusting the fuelling, no split or damaged hoses etc etc, then the only thing left is my setting-up of the system and I'd have to take the knock on it and fix it. It isn't a case of whether it was my personal opinion or not, it's an honesty issue! That's one of the reasons why (most) garages have decent insurance policies! I notice you still haven't answered my question of how we as installers are supposed to decide who is safe to have the software and leads.....

volvo940 · #94 Post by **volvo940** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:57 pm

First you seem to be implying your customers are less honest than you, yet you expect us to give you our cars worth large sums of money without the means to check the system ourselves, do you have/expect us to have that much faith in the lpga industry? As for leads etc., anyone asking for them would not be your average punter, chances are that given a backup of the params that you programmed, and spent a short time (chargeable) explaining, they would not have much of a problem. During the explaining you could access the risk advise/warn acordingly Simply explain that taking the leads etc, you expect the customer then to have no claim on you for damage caused by incorrect setup unless the engine blows up due to your settings being obviously and seriously wrong. As for the melted piston example as you state, not much room for speculation there. Seems like the victim doesn't stand a hope in hell of his installer "taking a knock on it" or the lpga even caring

richy_boy · #95 Post by **richy_boy** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:25 pm

My installer kindly showed me the software as he knew I was interested in the 'workings' of the system. I would of gladly paid an extra £100 for the dongle, cables and a 30 minute training session on the basic as suggested by Peter above. Rich

badger · #96 Post by **badger** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:45 pm

Peter, you just don't get it, do you? It's a question of risk and avoidance of potential issues. I am not implying anything at all re. the honesty of my customers, merely stating that it's human nature to try and apportion blame rather than open your wallet, please see that. It's this very human nature that's forced installers to adopt a defensive stance. If you want a gas installation and you intend to set it up or at least play with the setup yourself, then fit it yourself because a "fitted and warranted" system is not going to be the best option for your requirements, by the sounds of things. That means that you take all the risks with only yourself to blame if it goes wrong. Not trying to scare, merely stating what could happen. Now, if you don't wish to do a self-install, then maybe you are asking to "have your cake and eat it"? I myself have little or no faith in the LPGA as a body, hence why I am not an "approved converter". I agree with you re. the lpga not doing a lot to help resolve any issues if a conversion goes wrong, I've sorted out too many bad installations done by a.n.other to have any faith.

classicswede · #97 Post by **classicswede** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:52 pm

Peter I am the one here who would stick my neck on the block and let you mess with your gas system. I've never had an engine blow due to an lpg conversion I have done. What I would do is wire in a lambda display. Then if a meltdown should happen it would be your own fault for ignoring the gauge! Engine failure is a problem for lpg installers. The reason being not enough checks been done before conversion. A engine and fuel system needs to be 100% before a conversion. This is rarely the case. Another point who serives your engine?

volvo940 · #98 Post by **volvo940** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:05 am

When I got the car it was running like a pig blowing lots of oil and must of already had severe valve recession and had done 210k miles After two weeks or so (the first time I did any work on the car/got a wiring dia), I ran wires from the lambda to the cabin, leaving a multimeter wired up with the stand stuffed in the centre air vent in my field of view.(you don't need a lambda display, but they look prettier) to answer your question on who services my car, I do all the work required. A couple of months ago I found a donor car with 100k on the clock I changed the engine removing the engine from the donor removed mine changed the flywheel(mine's manual, the donor was auto) new centre plate and thrust bearing. And yes I did mark the flywheel position before removeing it from my engine and it did start first time. Took me three days on my own, with a little help from a fork lift. During the refit I found that the mixer which had an insert had been fitted wrong, the holes faced the filter not the engine (original installer?) so turned the insert round. I also have now fitted an OMVL90 and now the system runs faultlessly. During a test, I ran open loop (fixed default, no steps up or down) from cold, urban and up to speeds of 110 on the M25, with the lambda sensor happly bobbing around .5V The meter gets removed every now and again when I need it for something else but mostly it's there and switched on.

MarkJones · #99 Post by **MarkJones** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am

This little meter.dirt cheap.. 1 meter £5.50 ish 100 18k resistors..........£2.60...had to buy 100 p+p plus vat the whole lot comes to £13.57 .....from rapid electronics... item number 48-0305 from here.. <a href="http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/image ... -0300e.pdf" target=_top>http://www.rapidelectronics.co.uk/image ... 00e.pdf</a> add two 18 k resistors ...like so .and there you go. <a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/ ... /circ2.jpg" target=_top>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/ ... rc2.jpg</a> Meter needle will sit in the middle when running correct. well so it should,according to my electric expert mate. Not tried it out yet, it was meant for the sierra ..but I moved on. The meter is neat and compact and would fit nicely on or in any dash. all the best.mark

volvo940 · #100 Post by **volvo940** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:53 am

I don't know the impeadence of a lambda probe and would be concerned about placing that much load on it You are putting a 10k load on it, with this meter, if the lambda's impeadence is much higher that 1k it will affect the output too much The lambda (90%) signal's AVERAGE is ~.5V but it should not just sit there (unless you take the cat off?)