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classicswede · #62 Post by **classicswede** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:19 pm

I seen no need for the LPGA. It would be better if all new installs had to be indipendantly tested. Self cert is no way to do it. I would much rather it was done this way and then we should see a consistant standard, Mike

richy_boy · #64 Post by **richy_boy** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:49 pm

"This also falls back onto the suppliers shoulders who will sell kits to all and sundry,with little or no training" This also has its problems. My kit was proifessionally fitted, but I want a dongle and cable so I can adjust my MAP and maybe get the car rolling roaded to start using the ignition advance system built into my unit. Unfortunaltey, it seems no one is willing to sell it to me!! A much better solution to the LPGA problem would be that EVERY conversion must be certified by an independant professional and 'rubber stamped'. That way, DIY people can crack on, yet if not up to a high enough safety standard will be refused certification. Not all DIY'er are idiots, and they should stop being treated like them by the LPGA and 'associated importers'. <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":-(" BORDER=0> Rich

#65 Post by **admin** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:00 pm

There seems to be q lot of negative talk about conversions and associated problems which I imagine is why people come to forums like this. It's a shame that we don't hear about the success stories. What about the good conversions ? I for one had a disaster on my first conversion, however following a refit it has been great for the last 4 years. Yes some minor problems, not directly associated with LPG, just poor ignition. The question really is what is the level of poor conversions to good ones, I am sure we shall never know as people tend to complain when something is going wrong rather than praising when something is going right. Damian

badger · #67 Post by **badger** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:15 pm

Ok then, I am a professional installer and I am telling you now that a problem CAN be caused by an LPG kit! A customer came to me with a V8 rangerover running on only 6.5 cylinders, gutless and using half a gallon of oil to do the 4 miles to my workshop! The fault was a totally destroyed piston crown and another severely damaged with low compressions. The cause was another garage pratting about with the system when they didn't know what they were doing, a severely lean mixture and detonation did the damage. Could it be proved? Could it hell as like, but a fully rebuilt engine and correct tuning and it is still running like a dream 1 year on. As for the saab, it is possible that the previous installation did enough damage to severely weaken a piston, it was then only a question of time as to when complete failure would occur. Unless the garage in question has emough moral spine to put their hand up and admit it though, the chances are you could never prove such, unfortunately.

tony_mcscaff · #68 Post by **tony_mcscaff** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:23 pm

I have had a big problem with my primera after its conversion to gas 18months and 18,000 miles later cylinder off re shim exhaust vavle replacement and a lot of money spent to get it to go back so I can be on the road again ,running only on petrol at present still not sure gas ok for primera. I felt that the installation was ok but its first service was done by another plga installer (not the original installer)who pointed out no sleeving on cables ,cables unsecure draped right across engine no securing clips to injectors to hold them on and his opinion was that it was not a very good install .I raised my objections to the lpga and went through the channels only to be told no past history of primeras being a problem after lpg conversion so no blame on installer ,it was pointed out they will look at the installer over the other work namely poor wiring etc.I said I will get in the forum and point out the possibilty of the primera maybe not liking gas and also bring to the attention of members the poor installation of one of their members ,was told by mike chapman(lpga member) in a email I should be carefull what I put down in this case because of possible infringement of libel ,the warning I think was meant in my best interest but no one will give you a straight answer on any problems to do with lpg conversions .Totally frustrated to say the least

badger · #69 Post by **badger** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:07 pm

Primera's will run just fine on gas, but for safety I always fit a Flashlube lubricator unit to all Nissans, Hondas and Toyotas. Their engines can suffer from recession due to the higher exhaust valve temp of lpg, because of the lack of cooling that the "wet" petrol mix would otherwise give. The effect is more pronounced with engines that sit at high speed for long periods or do a lot of towing. The LPGA response sounds fairly typical if you ask me, yet another reason why I refuse to join them. No libel issue if you state facts that can be proven and stay clear of personal attack.

steve_96 · #70 Post by **steve_96** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:04 pm

Brian Hatton has raised a very important point that has not been picked up fully here. We have seen a number of LPG problems caused by service garages or maybe the owner and his mate having a 'twiddle' with the gas system on Sunday afternoon, inadvertent or otherwise, and put them right. Sure, any fuel system, be it Petrol, LPG, Coal or Nuclear can cause damage if run too weak and may well end in melting a Piston, there is no question about it. The REAL question is how did the engine become to be running so weak (if at all? Was it (a) a poor setup of install, (b) a fault that later developed with the gas system that made it run weak, (c) a fault that developed in the car itself that made the LPG system run weak or (d) has Mick the Mechanic been having a play with it when the car is brought in for a set of plugs? I have to say that the LEAST likely is (a), because anyone competent enough to effect the conversion and get the engine running well on gas MUST have got the job very close to correct, if not completely. For my own part, I can confirm that out of the 932 conversions that have gone through my hands in 2 Countries I have never seen a melted Piston and I doubt that I ever will, as long as (b) through to (d) do not occur. Whilst we are on the subject of interference with the settings of any system, this is the principal reason for responsible suppliers refusing to sell leads and software to all and sundry. It is a good thing too, and I applaud it. Not only is the installer protected from fraudulent warranty claims arising from intereference, but the owner is sheilded from any suspicion should things go arwy. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

richy_boy · #71 Post by **richy_boy** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:55 pm

"Whilst we are on the subject of interference with the settings of any system, this is the principal reason for responsible suppliers refusing to sell leads and software to all and sundry. It is a good thing too, and I applaud it. Not only is the installer protected from fraudulent warranty claims arising from intereference, but the owner is sheilded from any suspicion should things go arwy." Are you telling me the ECU does not log when the map was last changed or updated? If so, that's a serious oversite from the manufacturers! With such a thing the quickest of glances can prove whos MAP caused the issue. So Steve, when I modify my car further and my local rolling road ARE NOT LPGA members, but have a THOROUGH understanding of the technology and tuning principles, how on earth do you think you (and the LPGA registered importers)think I don't have the right to supply them(me) with the dongle and software to tune my system to a higher level than 99% of all LPG fitters out there? It's like selling TV without the remote, or like a heating system without a thermostate. .. and it's infuriating that I can be sold half a system and when I try and PAY EXTRA to complete it, I have backs turned all under the umbrella 'LPGA' scam. I've always stated that I'll sign ALL rights away to my installer being responsible for any damage that is caused from the mapping system. Please tell me if I'm asking too much here?! Richard

sm200sx · #72 Post by **sm200sx** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:52 am

I've advised sent 2 people for LPG conversions since I had mine done. I had mine done "on the cheap" £1100 installed for a OMVL, however it was never right. CS Autogas solved many of the problems for me and for that I'm happy. However I still need more work to bring the system up to scratch, a large high pressure vapouriser and 8mm pipework instead of 6mm to stop the LPG cutting off at 4000rpm .... Luckily I was able to check the fuelling and drive round the issues until it was sorted. I wish I had paid £1600 and gone to a better installer, one day I'll save up the cash for the pipework and vapouriser and be able to rev it out on LPG. You do get what you pay for, and I'm stuck with a system that cant fuel past 40bhp/cylinder when my car can produce almost double that ! Still its fine for my everyday driving, and it runs on super unleaded when it was used as my trackday car. I now have a new trackday car though ....

steve_96 · #73 Post by **steve_96** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:08 am

Richard, In the past you have drawn parallels with the LPG industry and the IT industry. If we continue that a little further, I have to ask you if the buyer/ user /owner of any computer and the software loaded onto it gets every single engineer shortcut, tool, and the ability to change or adjust everything? The answer is of course NO, and if you could get them you would also have to pay for them. The two things are quite similar in this respect. There most certainly are LPG conversion users and Computer owners who are well capable of setting up and adjusting a correctly installed system. Several of my customers have the leads and software to do just that, but only after I am satisfied they know what they are doing. The unilateral supply of such things would not be a good idea, the rule is of course generally applied to all when it does not suit some, but it is the best overall policy for most people involved, including, whether you like it or not, the installer and supplier. BTW, the parallel drawn between TV's with no remote and heating systems without a thermostat is a poor one. With an LPG system we do supply a Thermostat (controls changeover temp.) and the Remote function of a TV is amply covered by the fuel choice switch as fitted. Regards Steve <a href="http://www.go-lpg.co.uk" target=_top>www.go-lpg.co.uk</a>

richy_boy · #74 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:24 am

Steve, I don't want this to turn into a 'Richard bitching' thread here (a bit late maybe), but you are wrong. When you buy a server (for example) with an OS you can install the machine and change everything anyone else can do on that server and software. There is no 'secret dongle or password' to enter into secret screens so you can speed things up, or to make it run any differently. If you have ADMIN rights (which is your right as the purchaser) you have FULL access. My personal view is that LPG system owners should at least have the RIGHT to a 'full' system, rather then having (in computer terms) user access, i.e. you can use it, but you can improve or modify it. A great analagy, which I feel has only proved my point further. I'm agreed that people should be checked to see what they intend doing with the system, or for what purpose they need to reconfigure... but once a simple explaination has been given (i.e. I want to rolling road tune my LPG system) then I feel that is more than enough reason to be able to buy the cables and dongles from any installer or supplier. After all, we see many non-LPGA installers here, many of which install systems FAR and away better than some other 'quality' LPGA registered installers - so what has being registered have to do with quality and experience at all to judge people against? You missed my point about the other examples too. A TV remote allow ME to choose channel, a heating thermostat allow ME to control the tempreture of my house. All I can do with my LPG system at present is use it as it is. Rich

badger · #75 Post by **badger** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:43 am

Richy, I understand where you're coming from mate, but it's not an LPGA scam, it's an issue of self-protection for the installer. I will supply leads and software to people I know and trust, or anyone who wiahes to sign a warranty disclaimer! (You buy this lead, you invalidate your warranty - amazing how many choose the warranty, but it's the only way I can protect myself, I hope you can understand that?) Your quote about being sold "half a system" is a bit off, that's like saying bmw or landrover for example should include a copy of the computer test leads and software with every new car! Now, Landrover's testbook will cost in excess of £10K if you wish to buy it, do you see my point? There is a comment on another thread re. contents indication adjusting "I've found an adjuster, can I twiddle it" is the jist of it, not word for word, but you get the point. This is what we as installers are up against. Personally I couldn't care who you get to do the work as long as it's done right, it's not an LPGA thing, honest, I ain't a member!

#76 Post by **admin** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:56 am

I got the leads and software for my Leonardo system. Just glad I took a backup of the system before I started <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Damian

richy_boy · #77 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:19 am

"Your quote about being sold "half a system" is a bit off, that's like saying bmw or landrover for example should include a copy of the computer test leads and software with every new car!" I see your point, but again it's not applicable here. Another example. If I buy racelogic traction control (a generic product) for my car, I get the leads and software to configure it. If I don't have the leads then I can phone up and order them through any supplier, without being a member of one particular association. A BMW ECU and mapping system is for THAT car alone whos parameters should never change (i.e. not a generic product). An LPG system is configurable to run on just about any car, so it's a generic system which was designed with configuration in mind - thus I feel I should have the right to buy it from the ONLY importer in the UK without being quizzed for my LPGA number, or being told rubbish about my car bursting into a ball of flames to try and scare me away. I can understand installers wanting to cover their own backs, but realistically anyone with half a brain would take a backup of the system before changing it, and I'm sure ALL you installers keep a backup of ALL your clients software settings - right? If I bought the dongle and cable, I'd certainly NOT write away my warrenty regarding hardware though, and any damage to my car is NEVER the LPG systems fault anyway, so it would only be 'smooth running' that would be covered anyway. Rich

richy_boy · #78 Post by **richy_boy** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:26 am

The 'twiddling knob' request was regarding the tank level indicator by the way. The whole point of this forum is about helping people fix their own problems and sharing knowledge I thought? As someone who knew the answer, I presume you and a whole host of other installers posted a reply explaining to them the answer to their question? Rather than leave them hanging so they had no other option but to 'try it'? <IMG SRC="http://www.my90.co.uk/lpgforum/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Rich

dpround · #79 Post by **dpround** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:15 pm

I have half an idea to build my own LPG controller along the lines of Megasquirt, the open source fuel injection system. I'd only be interested in single point control as that is all I have on my vehicle - or would have if I could get the software to configure the Emmegas system I already have... Anyone else interested? <a href="http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html" target=_top>http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html</a> For a proper injection setup it may well be worth considering Megasquirt as I should think the code changes would not be significant and you have full and absolute control over everything, right down to the system software!

MarkJones · #80 Post by **MarkJones** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:12 pm

If I was an installer I wouldn't want anyone messing with my install until after the warranty had run out . like a new car ..this is a new system.......even the car manufacturers forbid/caution you to play about with it under warranty ..or you may loose your right to free repairs. conditions should apply IE ..dongle only supplied after the warranty is expired. Like wise I see were installers are coming from. On the other hand a diy kit should come with software and dongle....because the purchaser is fitting it and it's their risk ...me thinks. All the best...mark