The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

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CNG
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The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#1 Post by CNG »

Probs one for Simon.

I've searched long and hard for a proper answer and have yet to see it. All I get is that same old hackneyed adage?

The adage goes:

"A turbo is free horsepower".


But is it really?

Yes I grasp the sum-total makes for more power, greater thermal-efficiency blah. But wait, if we put a fan on the end of any exhaust pipe - on the exit to a vacuum cleaner - and have it drive nothing, surely Shirley :

1) That fan doesn't spin or free?
2) The fan itself adds a restriction?
3) There must be less power. A power-hit to run the fan. Forced induction must be required to recover power-loss before we make more power?

Where does my logic fall apart.

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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#2 Post by Gilbertd »

If you were to put a fan on the end of the exhaust pipe (or the outlet of a vacuum cleaner for that matter), the fan would spin due to the airflow through it. In order to start it spinning would require some energy but once it is spinning at the rate of the airflow through it, assuming negligible friction in the bearing, it does not require any further energy to keep it spinning and won't add a restriction. Think a standard helix type fan, once it is turning at the same speed as the airflow through it, where would there be any restriction? As soon as you make it drive something then it will become a restriction but even then, only as the cross sectional area of the fan blades will reduce the area of the pipe.

In the case of a turbo, an engine needs some back pressure in the exhaust system (unless specifically designed to not need it) for efficient scavenging of the exhaust gases. This is why an engine will produce less power running open pipes than through a silenced system. Over silenced, so with lots of back pressure, and it will be a restriction so will produce less power but mainly at higher revs as the exhaust can't get out of the way fast enough before the next firing stroke. On a turbo installation, the turbo itself provides some of the back pressure, so less silencing, and hence restriction, is needed. This is why the current turbocharged Formula 1 engines are much quieter than the previous normally aspirated as the current ones have what is in effect a silencer where the previous ones didn't. The worst ones were the Le Mans winning Audi diesels, with the turbo they were damn near silent when a racing car should have the noise to go with it.

Basically it is down to an engine and exhaust system being designed to incorporate a turbo rather than one simply being bolted on without any other modifications.
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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#3 Post by LPGC »

The question is wider ranging than might first be thought...

Free power compared to what? The same engine that doesn't have a turbo? At full throttle, part throttle, a certain rpm range? Can a smaller engine with a turbo make the same power as a bigger engine without a turbo while using less fuel than the big engine?

My general thoughts go..

There are a lot of if/buts and dynamics at play...

For starters a turbo'd engine will usually run lower compression than a N/A engine, they have to to run lower compression to prevent detonation of the charge when running boost. The lower compression makes the engine less efficient in most conditions when the engine isn't under boosted manifold pressure. Actually that's not quite the right way to think about it because lower compression actually aids fuel economy because compressing air in engine cylinders uses power and the more we compress it the more we loose to compression... but with increased compression comes increased expansion ratio and to get the best efficiency from the combustion/expanding gas in the cylinders a higher expansion ratio is better. We want a high expansion ratio and in order to get it we need a high compression ratio because the 2 are linked, they're not identical in an engine application because an engine has valve timing and intake flow / exhaust flow dynamics that can make them different (especially on a modern engine with VVT) but they are still inextricably linked in an engine application.

If you mean can bolting a turbo onto an engine make it more powerful without doing anything else (other than changing fuelling and ignition maps) then yes it can. But still you have to pay for the turbo. And there's still a caveat.. If we can bolt a turbo onto an engine and not do anything else to it for that engine to make more power it begs the question why didn't we need to lower compression (expansion) so the engine didn't suffer detonation when running under boost? We may have been able to get a bit more horsepower at full engine load, plus an increase in fuel economy across the entire engine load range, just by raising the compression (expansion) ratio. Raising the compression (expansion) ratio doesn't add much power (nothing like adding a turbo) or make a dramatic difference to fuel economy but it's something that's probably more likely to make truly 'free power' than turbos all other things being the same (gearing etc), at least at light engine loads. The point here is that if we modified an engine setup by fitting a turbo without doing anything else and found that we could get X amount more power from it by doing so, we'd have to compare the new 'free' engine power to the free power we could have got if we hadn't fitted a turbo but had increased it's compression. Almost for sure 'if we didn't do anything else' (such as change the gearing) at part loads the high compression modification engine could do better mpg than the turbo modification engine - perhaps fuel economy at part throttle loads is another take on 'free power'.

Back pressure in an exhaust system is a negative for power, it amounts to both a pumping loss (pistons in cylinders on exhaust strokes are having to push against that pressure) and inlet charge dilution with exhaust gas.. any pressure left in cylinders when the exhaust valve is closing and inlet valve opening is pressure that works against new inlet charge entering the cylinder when the piston starts it's induction stroke. Whenever there's backpressure in an exhaust system it's the same effect as the engine having an EGR valve open constantly, instead of the cylinder getting a completely fresh charge it gets a charge that is part exhaust gas and part fresh inlet charge. Think about it this way.. Turbo's use back pressure to spin the exhaust turbine, which spins the compressor turbine. There's more exhaust gas going through the exhaust turbine (and it's hotter) than there is going through the compressor turbine (which is colder), so it might be possible for a very efficient turbo to make more boost pressure in the compressor than it causes as back pressure in the exhaust, but in practice they don't. In practice a turbo causes more backpressure in the exhaust than boost pressure it creates. In practice despite the greater volume and higher energy (temperature) of the exhaust flow a turbo will still cause more backpressure in the exhaust than boost pressure it creates. This means that when the exhaust valve is closing and inlet valve opening there's a period when no new charge can enter the cylinder because the cylinder still contains a higher pressure than the inlet charge and this period extends until the piston is quite a way down on it's induction stroke, in fact during this period exhaust flows into the inlet manifold!

Some things that work in a turbo's favour are...
If we bolt a turbo onto an engine we could use taller gearing, so during (say) cruise conditions we could run the engine at lower rpm, less frictional losses, less vacuum pumping losses on induction strokes, less fuel used. We might not want to run the taller gearing without the turbo because during our cruise a slight uphill stretch could necessitate a downchange in gear, the taller gearing could spoil the driveability of the car. With the turbo we can run the taller gearing because when we get to the hill we put our foot down a little, we get turbo boost and enough torque to go uphill without the downchange in gear.
If we were running say a 5L n/a engine we could maybe fit a 2.5 turbo engine which could make the same power whilst using less fuel at part engine loads even if it does run lower compression than the V8.

A coincidence you asked about turbos because only last night I watched a David Vizard video on YouTube on the subject. He confirmed what I already knew about backpressure playing against fresh inlet charge at the end of the exhaust stroke but he went a bit further and actually put some numbers to backpressure versus boost pressure. He was approaching the subject more from a cams (valve timing) point of view but a very interesting video. I've got some of his books but it was the first time I knew he made videos on Youtube (thought he was dead by now lol) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=506pjO4Z_80

I think exhaust scavenging (the idea of 'pulses' in the exhaust system 'pulling' more exhaust gas out of cylinders when exhaust valves open than would otherwise just be pushed out due to high pressure in cylinders escaping when an exhaust valve opens) has a smaller positive effect than backpressure has negative effect. For sure there are some engines that won't even run properly unless an exhaust system is fitted that creates some backpressure but I believe that's due to the cam timing they run with that features a lot of either/both the exhaust valve opening early (before BDC on the power stroke) or remaining open for longer than average during the intake stroke... They run such cam timing because the cylinder head design isn't great and to make as much power as they do they need to run such cam timing. The backpressure on them does things like preventing inlet charge flowing out of the exhaust... But they could be made to run better if only the comubustion chamber design / ports design were better and with more standard cam timing. When they run some engines on engine dynos they only fit a header (no exhaust system) and the power they produce isn't much different to when an exhaust system is fitted across the entire rpm / load range, unless it's an engine design that needs the backpressure to run properly (like say an old VW Beetle engine). I do get the thing about selecting an exhaust system diameter and length to tune the resonance of exhaust pulses so that the one in front is pulling the one behind out (I liken this to filling a bottle with water and emptying the bottle as quickly as possible by holding it at a specific angle that works best for getting air in and water out, kind of a very loose analogy!) but in this same analogy not much water would come out if it were a narrow tube with a big air bubble at the top inside the tube and air pressure outside the bottle was high enough to want to push the water up into the bubble, at least not until the bubble were compressed to be at near same pressure as the pressure outside the tube. With a good combustion chamber and port design I reckon back pressure is going to have much more detrimental effect than scavenging has positive effect, particularly on a turbo where there's a turbine separating the 'tuned' exhaust system from the pulses from exhaust valves. Turbos do indeed quieten an exhaust as much as an exhaust box does but in doing so they interfere with the 'sonic/pressure' pulses coming from exhaust ports on the engine. With the pulses gone 'pulse scavenging' is also gone, then you're just left with decreasing exhaust back pressure on the exhaust (as opposed to engine) side of the turbo exhaust turbine as a means to increase power - and at least if the intention is to make the most power with the minimum boost possible while being kind to the engine you want the turbo backpressure to be as low as possible in comparison to boost pressure.

There's still a lot more to it... Would probably be possible to build a very high powered turbo that was more economical at part load than a normal turbo, but the normal turbo would probably have better driveability with the torque coming in (and with less turbo lag) at lower rpms compared to the high powered more economical turbo. When building your turbo engine you'll have a power figure in mind, the power figure will affect/dictate what compressor housing your turbo has. Then you need an exhaust turbine that will power (turn) the compressor housing. Whether you fit a relatively small/medium/large exhaust housing, and it's efficiency, will affect the rpm/load that boost starts from and the backpressure to boost pressure ratio. Each aspect affects all others, so backpressure versus boost pressure will affect which cam you should choose, which cam will obviously affect everything else anyway including max boost and at what rpm max boost occurs. You could probably even select a setup to effect where during the combustion stroke most of the power is made, with a high backpressure to boost ratio that's going to be lower in the power stroke than it would be with a lower backpressure to boost ratio and that might effect things like engine life because high piston loads half way down a stroke impart greater sideways loading on the piston in it's cylinder than loads near TDC and BDC.

Says me while currently struggling to rebuild my boat's small block Ford 5.0 engine with it's old-skool pushrod design lol! But I know that if I fitted more modern design cylinder heads with a bit better combustion chamber design and better ports I could get another 100bhp with everything else staying the same (same cam and timing etc). Or if I rebuilt it with some cams while keeping the old cast heads it might need some backpressure to run OKish (not as smooth as it runs now) with the extra 100bhp. Or I could bolt turbo(s) on it but would probably have to lower the compression, which would make it less economical at part engine loads, though maybe still make more power than a similar design engine that didn't run turbo(s) while using less fuel than the bigger engine. As said at the begginning much of it depends on exactly what you are trying to achieve and 'free power' depends on what you're comparing it to. I could get a bit more power and economy just by increasing it's compression with the standard cast heads.

I agree with Gilbert on
1. It could spin for almost free once it has been 'spun up to speed'. It will take some power to spin up to speed.
2. It will add some sort of restriction. But we haven't defined the specifics of the fan.. This could be a tiny fan, hardly any restriction regardless of it's design (at the small size), could be full diameter of the exhaust but with extremely narrow blades. Fan isn't a bad analogy but a turbo has turbines not fans, slight difference.
3. Less power due to an exhaust restriction if in 1 or 2 we draw any power from the exhaust gas. But we're overlooking the real power draw due to the backpressure caused by the 'fan' in a turbo's exhaust, the power draw (and hence exhaust restriction) needed to power the turbo's compressor housing... If we put a load on the fan and slow it down it's going to be more of a restriction and cause more back pressure. But a turbo'd engine that has a turbo with an electronically controlled wastegate could be set up for exhaust gas to bypass the turbo during very light engine load / steady cruise conditions anyway... by keeping the turbo's wastegate open. Still the turbo'd engine would likely have lower compression (ahem expansion) than it's n/a equivalent... but it could be higher geared, could be a smaller engine.

I saw it coming many years ago - Manufacturers are making smaller engines than before, turbo'd so they make the same power as older n/a engines but with better fuel economy. A 1 litre Ford Mondeo Ecoboost or a 2.3L Ford mustang Ecoboost, as opposed to a 2L n/a Mondeo or a 5.0 V8 n/a Mustang. Will those newer engines last as long as the older engines? Probably not because the engines are going to be under higher loads (related to their size) than the older engines, they only make as much power as the older bigger engines so are going to have to work under boost conditions (higher loads than the bigger engines) more of the time just in normal driving. But can a 2L turbo engine or 5L turbo engine last as long as a 2L n/a or 5L n/a engine? Yes depending how it's driven.. It doesn't need to be driven any harder than the older design, just that it can be driven harder and make more power. My old Sierra Cosworth with 400bhp from it's Pinto derived engine and still capable of 30+ mpg definitely felt like it had free power (considering a 2L Sierra wouldn't do a great deal better than 30mpg anyway) at low engine loads on a cruise but mpg could go through the floor if I gave it some stick, in fact I might as well have fitted a tuned V8 if I wanted to boot it all the time, bet it would be just as economical during booting it. Every engine or drivetrain setup is a compromise but 30mpg from a 2L with 400bhp (Sierra Cosworth) seems a good compromise compared to 36mpg with 130bhp (Sierra 2L n/a). A 1L Ecoboost engine makes 123bhp standard, close to the 130bhp n/a 2L. If we fitted a 1L engine in the Sierra and drove it slowly we'd expect better than the 2L mpg but it would be a very sluggish car. But fit a turbo on it, make it 123bhp and it won't be far from the 2L power and responsiveness and even with the turbo it will still do better mpg than the 2L mpg while driving similarly to the 2L.

Fitting a turbo to an engine increases it's overall operating dynamic range. By this I mean the amount of fuel it consumes just to idle compared to the amount of fuel it consumes at maximum engine load (making it's max power). If we level out / normalise all the variables so we can clearly see this dynamic range, an n/a engine might idle at 700rpm and pulse it's injectors at 3ms at idle, so let's say the idle fuel useage is 700x3 = 2100 units at idle (no need to define a unit to this 2100 at the moment, even though there actually is one which we could/can define). At max bhp this engine might be doing 16ms injector duration and 6000rpm, which is 6000x16 = 96000 units. The dynamic range would be 96000/2100 = 45.7, i.e. it would use 45.7 times as much fuel flat out and making max bhp than it uses at idle. Now let's suppose this engine makes 200bhp. So if we do 96000/2100 we can work out that at idle it's using 4.375bhp worth of fuel. Now let's look at likely figures for a very similar design engine only with the expected slightly lower compression, obviously a turbo stuck in it's exhaust and making 300bhp from (say) 0.7 bar of boost (say something like a 2L version of a Saab LPT light pressure turbo engine). The turbo engine still makes max bhp (now 300bhp) at the same 6000 rpm, it still has the same 'injection window' (period of time during which the engine completes it's 4 stroke cycle) at 6000rpm as any 4 stroke engine at 6000rpm so it still can only go up to a peak of 16ms injector duration pulse time, so with a need to inject more fuel in the same time frame (so we don't overshoot the window) we need to increase the amount of fuel the inectors flow when they are open... If all else remains the same (efficiency etc) then we need the injectors to flow 1.5x the fuel they'd flow for 200bhp to flow enough for 300bhp. We could get the injectors to flow 1.5x the fuel by increasing the fuel pressure, but we'd have to more that double fuel pressure and that kind of fuel pressure wouldn't be safe, or we could fit bigger flowing injectors... so we fit bigger flowing injectors. Then, again all else being the same (efficiency at idle) these bigger flowing injectors would need to be pulsed for less duration than the lower flowing injectors to deliver the same amount of fuel. Where before with the 200bhp setup we needed to pulse injectors for 3ms at idle, now (if injectors opened and closed instantaneously, which they don't) we'd only have to pulse them for 2ms. Now if we have an engine that idles at 700 rpm with 2ms duration and reaches peak power (of 300bhp) at 6000rpm and 16ms durtation we have dynamic range of (700 x 2) = 1400 compared to (6000 x 16) = 96000, so dynamic range for the turbo is now 68.57 compared to 45.7 for the n/a... and if we compared 68.57 to 45.7 we'd find the same 1.5 ratio which is the same as the power increase (from 200 to 300bhp). But we haven't accounted for the lower efficiency at part loads due to the lower compression, and what we'd actually find is that the petrol injectors on the turbo engine would probably have duration at closer to 2.1 or 2.2ms at idle - which you should be thinking is due to the lower compression engine needing more fuel (because it needs to use more air and it has to keep the mixture correct or things look even worse) just to idle... In fact it needs more air and fuel to deliver the same power as the higher compression n/a engine to deliver any sort of low power level. But it will make 50% more power when you put your foot down, and we could compare that bit of extra fuel usage (10%>20%?) at low engine loads to the 50% more power when do put our foot down and consider that without the turbo we'd need a 50% bigger engine (go up in size from 2L to 3L with same spec) and the 3L engine might have higher fuel usage at low engine loads (almost certainly at idle) than the 2L turbo.
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CNG
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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#4 Post by CNG »

That’d be about it. Thanks to you both. I knew this sounded ‘off’, just didn’t know why.

There’s little grasp of the basics. The adage seems to be spoken in the context; ‘exhaust gases are gone anyway’, thus it’s ‘free power’.

Cars generally are littered with similar examples of boy-racer science. More than should, too many take this stuff on board. The whole, you’ll get 140mpg with special carburettors, I’ve the secret to eternal life, and aliens live under the sea ‘thing’ has no end.
From braided brake-hose to fart-can exhausts, and my pet-laugh, those K&N filters, I'm left to wonder, did anyone go to school?

Come on, if K&N filters truly work, with £50+ million in development money, emission/ performance parameters to meet, there’d not be a car in the world without one?

The myth that a bloke with box of spanners knows more than teams of development engineers isn’t going anywhere. If manufacturers can find dupes ready to suck-up it up, who am I to deprive?

robertXX
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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#5 Post by robertXX »

Having designed and built a fair few turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines amongst other projects of weirdness , my thoughts are ..

if you take four engines , all identical , and use a fuel that wont detonate , one engine nat aspirated , one engine super charged , and one turbo charged , and one pressure fed by an externally driven air pump ,then the nat aps engine is the lowest power .

the other engines , if fed air at the same pressure and temperature will have the same power output as each other .


HOWEVER .


the supercharged engine is using some of that power to drive the supercharger .the turbo engine is using some of that power to drive the turbocharger .the external pressure fed engine is not using any of the crankshaft power to drive its air feed .


so the the supercharged engine , with its typically lower efficiency blower will be lowest , and the turbo next with its higher eff blower ,and the ext feed engine most powerfull .


so the turbo power did not come for free , its just more efficient than other types of blower .


LPG Economy wise , my personal experience is , disappointingly ,not really supporting the smaller engine with turbo model , as compared with a larger engine , however , there are some differences between compared vehicles .


car 1:
my astra mk3 courier van , built 2001 , 2 litre 8 valve fast rd cam , higher cr 10.5:1 , and free flowing exhaust , ported head , made 145 bhp and 150 lbs/ft ...with very tall gearing . generally from 23 to 35 mpg .



car 2:
my astra mk3 estate. 1.4 litre tubocharged , stock cam , 10.25:1 cr , largish T25 turbo for the engine size , 180 bhp 145 lbs/ft . not v tall gearing....again , 23 to 35 mpg .


things to note are , the current car does not spend ages on the motorways like the van did , its also probably 100 kg or more heavier .


a freak occurrence was ,on one of my trips bringing stuff up to my new hs near welshpool , witney lpg was not working and i nearly ran out and had to do 130 miles at 2000 rpm ,and 45-50 mph , with a load of stuff on board , i got 42 mpg ! that was with cruise afr at 17.2:1...so v lean .



regards
robert
"The Temptress" thread..... https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/215234/temptress
'Medusa" thread .....https://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/threads/medusa.206057/

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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#6 Post by LPGC »

Nice to see you back around Robert!

CNG Agreed with you about much of the boy racer type scene and K&N filters etc but there's one aspect that allows DIYers to make some changes that development engineers can't... Development engineers have been lowering emissions since the 60's, take the US muscle car scene as an example where engine power dropped dramatically going into the 70's due to redesign of engines to meet emissions regulations, they didn't really pick up to the same power levels as they were in the 60s again until the 90s but during all that time a DIYer could fit an older design more powerful engine or modify a mid year engine to same spec as an older more powerful one. A lot of vehicles could maybe get very slightly better mpg if they ran slightly lean mixture during light engine load conditions but development engineers can't set them up to do that because catalytic convertors need the mixture to fluctuate between slightly lean and slightly rich all the time or they don't work properly.
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Pinger
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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#7 Post by Pinger »

Theoretically speaking, a turbo increases the expansion ratio - expanding the exhaust gas further (to a lower pressure than could be done in the cylinder on the piston head) and then applying that work output to compress air which reduces the effort required at the piston to induct air into the cylinders and, by increasing the density of the air, a greater mass of air can be induced which when an appropriate amount of fuel is added, creates more power at the crankshaft. The downside (as has been mentioned) is the increased backpressure working against the piston head during the exhaust stroke. Nothing ground-breaking in what I've just written but viewing the turbine of the turbo as a means to increase the overall expansion ratio is a valid description. What is then done with that extracted energy is wide open...

Re compression ratio. For fuel efficient road engines the reduction in CR will be minimised as much as possible to preserve off-boost part load cruising efficiency and fuel enrichment and retarded ignition deployed to contain detonation when operated at full load. On an engine expected to spend more of its time at high loads (eg, performance application or, a low power engine in a heavy vehicle) the CR may be further reduced. Not only will this lower the requirement for fuel enrichment and retarded ignition, it will (despite the lower CR) increase power because at the end of induction the volume in the cylinder includes the clearance volume which with reduced CR is larger. Thus, for a given inlet pressure, a greater mass of fresh charge is introduced to the cylinder. Combine that with the greater boost/density the lower CR permits and more hp is possible. Depending on how the vehicle will be driven, this theoretically less efficient configuration may actually deliver better mpg. The devil is in the detail.

Good post on the Vizard video. Info re the ratio of inlet and exhaust pressures is hard to come by and he talks in terms I'm familiar with from 2-strokes (where the 2T can be considered an orifice engine and the air flow through it is dependent on the pressure ratio across it between the (cylinder) inlet and exhaust ports. The same perspective from which Vizard views turbocharging a 4T.

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Re: The adage: A turbo is free horsepower - right? No, wrong?

#8 Post by Gilbertd »

CNG wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:22 amFrom braided brake-hose to fart-can exhausts, and my pet-laugh, those K&N filters, I'm left to wonder, did anyone go to school?

Come on, if K&N filters truly work, with £50+ million in development money, emission/ performance parameters to meet, there’d not be a car in the world without one?

The myth that a bloke with box of spanners knows more than teams of development engineers isn’t going anywhere. If manufacturers can find dupes ready to suck-up it up, who am I to deprive?
The difference is that a bloke with a box of spanners doesn't have an accountant breathing down his neck. Braided brake hoses are vastly superior to standard rubber ones as they have a PTFE liner that doesn't swell and increase in cross sectional area under pressure, but they cost considerably more than standard rubber ones so a manufacturer isn't going to fit them as standard unless it is the likes of McLaren, Caterham, Ariel and others that will fit the best they can get irrespective of cost. They also don't perish and deteriorate with age so are a fit and forget item. The same goes for Copper/Nickel brake pipes against steel ones. Steel is cheap but rusts but as that isn't a problem until the car is over 10 years old, a manufacturer doesn't care. On 2 out of my 4 cars, I've replaced standard brake piping for Copper/Nickel and the hoses for Goodridge braided as that means they are something that I never have to be concerned about at MoT time and I know they aren't going to fail on me like a steel pipe or rubber hose can.

As for K&N filters, they work, they work exceedingly well but are far more expensive than a paper filter. At roughly the same interval where you would replace a paper filter, all you need do is wash it and re-oil it, just a shame that your average boy racer doesn't usually a grasp of the concept of maintenance and servicing. I used to race motocross and all bikes came with an oiled foam air filter as standard but even then they were of a cheaper construction than the K&N replacement. On a dusty track, if running a conventional paper air filter, you'd need to change it after every race. Oiled foam meant you could do the 3 or 4 races at one meeting and all you needed do was wash it out and re-oil it before the next race meeting. Some of the manufacturer fit ones would fall apart after you'd washed them 4 or 5 times, but a K&N will last for years
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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