LPG petition

[Avensist]

Totally agree with Brian. Low sales are either down to their unreliability or stupid pricing strategy.

Obviously the facilities which they have paid fair amount to have them installed years ago are there, but the management of them, either maintaining it or pricing so poor that drives customers away losing potential business opportunities. And then, rather than looking into what they are doing wrong, they blame low demands and some spend more to have that facilities removed in some case. It's the typical "It's not my fault mentality". There's quite a lot of thick people in the management who get paid well, but do no research to make up for the lack of knowledge and this not only harming the industry but dragging the country down as a whole.

[Brian_H]

The problem has a couple of more less than obvious elements

Having a tank sat there costs them money. This isn't obvious until you realise that the fuel storage capacity is used to calculate how much the filling station has to pay towards the local fire service for reasons that should be fairly obvious. More capacity = Higher charge.

Not all of it is the stations own doings - Flogas are awful as far as speed (or complete lack of it) in doing repairs (the local station here has been out since early December awaiting repairs) and actually delivering to stations/keeping them with enough in the tank to keep online. Neither makes for a viable long term business and the communication off them as a supplier is abysmal (they can't even get their own website to accuratly show their own outlets either). Broughton, Grovebury and Stopsley are all localish to me, and out of the 3 the only fairly reliable one until recently was Broughton (all Shell stations supplied by Flogas). I was close to Addlestone recently and needed a fill up so thought I'd try there - "no pump has finally been fixed 3 weeks ago, but we cannot get a delivery for reasons Flogas are unable to share with us and we have no idea when they will deliver to us either!"

Thats not to say that Calor are really any better, neither of them seem to have any clue about their customer base or really care either way about them, and both are guilty of being caught out by "unprecedented demand" every time it gets slightly cool. If they aren't anticipiting that demand for deliveries will increase when the weather gets colder, then frankly they deserve to go out of business. Which wouldn't be so much of an issue if they hadn't been allowed to become a duopoly between them of course.

In the times of Diesel and petrol prices being what they are, any alternative provider that can show a decent saving, should be finding no end of custom - Until recently if you didn't want a converted vehicle, you could have brought a factory fit Dacia ready to go on gas. Sainsburys in their "Wisdom" decreed that no adaptors were to be used on their forecourts - I think out of the two, the manufacturer should be able to say what is and isn't safe. I've witnessed the reaction at Cobham (when they still had a pump) of any Dacia daring to go anywhere near the LPG pump, hollering on the tannoy at them in a highly unprofessional manner isn't the way to deal with it.

Stupid pricing seems to be engineered to kill sales further - The Flamstead Esso being a prime example, its an awful filling station, only one side of the pump has worked in years, despite being refrubished a few years ago when it changed from Shell it still has basic problems (like being unable to accomodate larger cars side by side on pumps due to the poor layout) and yet they have one of the highest prices in the country. Toddington services just up the road were much cheaper but also very unreliable as to if they actually had any to sell.

Its crying out for a reliable supplier around here now - but it needs to be open for a decent amount of time (so you catch the trade that can't get to it between 9am and 5pm!) and kept supplied all the time so you can rely on it being available when you show up.

[SteveMJ_new]

There is a boatyard in Watford area shown on autogas.app but I've not used it to confirm, and the hours it's open are limited.

The place you refer to is Bridgewater Basin Boatyard. I have very recently contacted them, they do supply to cars, I was anticipating that they may supply boats only, they would like to be notified in advance. For me they are 20 miles away, so unless I am near that area (mrs shopping?!) it is a long round trip.

[Brian_H]

Thanks thats the one yes, thats also useful to know - I'm not sure where you are to be 20 miles away but guess its somewhere south of Luton area. Its a bit sparse around there with the few places left being unreliable and more often out than working (I'm a bit further north in MK and its not much better here at present time either).

[Avensist]

I don't understand why the UK in particular like to do things in a very unsustainable manner.

Even looking at history, such as what British Leyland did. Everything short-term. It's almost like enjoying shooting themselves in the foot. And then, you get comedy duo like Truss & Twarteng fuelling things even further.

That said, I was very impressed with Morrisons Chingford on Saturday. There are 3 rows with each having 2 pumps each supplying both sides. The last row has LPG. They coned off the petrol and diesel pumps on that row making it LPG dedicated row. Being Saturday, the station was very busy but this arrangement worked out really well as cars didn't queue up unnecessarily and things were moving smoothly on all rows despite every pumps were being used.

As many of you would know, when having to queue for LPG pump and when someone already using the same pump to fuel petrol or diesel, LPG cars quite easily queue up behind and most tend to be larger cars and that leads to more queue. So by doing what Morrisons Chingford did, it eliminated that cause. Less queue means more people are likely to fill up as even those who would otherwise fill up elsewhere with petrol or diesel to avoid the queue.

Some clever competent person knew what he or she was doing and made such arrangements made everyone's life easier despite being a busy Saturday afternoon. Most didn't even notice but I did and that person deserves a praise! And above all, this make business sense a win-win situation for both customers and Morrisons.

[Brian_H]

I've filled up there as well last week, I wasn't so sure it wasn't the pumps being in a bad visibility place for drive offs that they did that or they were running low on some tanks, but maybe its just like that?

Short term wise, look at the "support" Shell gave their H2 refuelling network - pulled the few facilities they had built within the space of 3 years of comissioning and barely event mentioned doing so publically!

Think a lot of the probelm is folk willing to pay over the odds on PCP to own nothing at the end of 3 years of paying for the car for "less hassle". Though they don't see the hassle of being charged for every tiny bit of damage at the end of the plan as an issue, or multiple trips to replace tyres that "aren't worn to the lease company spec yet" etc, meaning that mods are not allowed either.

[Gilbertd]

Compared with the rest of Europe we are lagging behind badly. As I've previously mentioned, the Netherlands are installing more LPG pumps not taking them out and in Germany virtually every filling station has LPG and CNG with a number having H2 as well.

I don't see the logic in anyone leasing a car. Not only are you spending money for something you will never own, but the restrictions are laughable. Before I retired I had a company car and latterly a van. The cars had been owned by the company so could be modified to suit our needs in any way we saw fit and at the end of their life they went to auction so there was income from the sale. When we went over to vans they started leasing them on a 5 year lease. After about 3 years they were being swapped around so those that did the higher mileages swapped vans with those that hadn't to keep them below the 15,000 a year limit. When the time came to send them back, they were inspected and almost all had to have the bonnets resprayed as there were more stone chips than the lease company considered acceptable. What state would they expect a 5 year old Astra van with 100,000 on the clock to be in?

[Avensist]

Brian,
Do you remember Sainsbury's Watford or Colney? Used to get very busy sometimes with 3 or more LPG cars queuing up and when there is a petrol or diesel cars in the middle, the queue gets even longer. They obviously had space for the queue, but this Chingford one is fairly restricted and by doing what they are doing, it actually reduces the queue. Otherwise it could easily queue up, potentially blocking the entrance disabling total access or worse, block the access road to and from the store as well. They must be getting good number of LPG cars going in there to fill up.

Gilbertd,
Indeed, another case of 'Short term' and ditto about the leasing too. I suppose to make things look good by having new vehicles at the detriment of the actual operational activities in conjunction with accountant making the case for another 'short term' tax savings.

Reminds me of an ex-client, who ran a business but very slack in every possible way. Due to his disorganised nature, started to lose business. But rather than tackling the issues head on, spent more and more on advertising. Short term and unsustainable. It's not difficult to reply to emails in timely manner or stick to what he promised the customers but that was too easy. Rather spend on advertising and have more disappointed customers.

Chatting to the generation of 70 years old or over things were not like this but now this short term thing seems very common.

[Brian_H]

Yes I used to use Colney all the time (when it was actually working). Watford not so much as it was inconveient due to being out of the way.

I can remember using the Shell in Ilford that used to have a seperate pump to one side of the forecourt, that used to work well (there was 2 more in the middle of the other pumps).

I rarely use Chingford as I don't often go past that way, but if it works then thats great. I liked using Woodall services as the pumps there are on a seperate lane which helped too when up further North.

The local Shell is a pain for lorries blocking the gas pump and taking forever to both fill and then leave. One reason I'm glad to have towbar filler so can use either side of the pump though it does mean you need to get far enough forward to hook up.

Someone I know who is of that age, says he saw things move from a setup that could do most things needed, to an organisation that would struggle to hang a door, it seems as you say that things have gone downhill generally.

[Avensist]

Good old times when Colney worked. It was a very good location plus 24 hours which was very handy. Plus the pricing was competitive. I didn't used to use Chingford until now but no choice as others having stupid pricing strategies or short opening times drove me to use it. I think I'll start using Chingford more often.

The work ethics of older generations are totally different. They care and try to work as a whole where possible even down to those with manual labour type of work. But now, it's all ME! ME! ME! mentality all the time and short termism.

Even at the governmental levels, when someone tries to start a business, the premise is subject to Business rates and huge chunk gets taken away consequently either shelve the idea or close down if it's an existing business when things get tough. Look at the number of shops closed after the lock down.

Another example is HMO regulations in London areas, imposed so much to the landlords that many have withdrew from the market as it's not worth the hassle. Again very short term and unsustainable, doing no body any good.

Some say the top people are greedy but I think not as they seem to be satisfied with what they are currently getting and not bothered about getting more. But of course that is achieved in expense of people working in the front line, especially under the current economic situation. Like we discussed while back Calor and Flogas don't want to talk figures for instance when enquiring, they are not particularly willing to expand.

[colin33]

I have plenty customers that come to me from their homes in Cornwall (and Northern Scotland lol) mate..

And I got to know the guy who set up the LPG filling station near Portreath.

Ample opportunity for other people to set up other LPG filling stations around Cornwall?

I'm not surprised Simon, there is a lack of experts in this part of the world. I'm still hoping that one day you'll perfect my calibrations for me on my vehicles, so make sure you get in touch next time you're down this way
Paul at Portreath had the space and the means to set up what he has, and a keen interest because he uses the autogas in one of his vehicles. I'm not sure there'll be anyone else willing and able to set up in Cornwall.
This will only change if we had someone actively promoting and converting vehicles in the area.

Colin

[LPGC]

I have plenty customers that come to me from their homes in Cornwall (and Northern Scotland lol) mate..

And I got to know the guy who set up the LPG filling station near Portreath.

Ample opportunity for other people to set up other LPG filling stations around Cornwall?

I'm not surprised Simon, there is a lack of experts in this part of the world. I'm still hoping that one day you'll perfect my calibrations for me on my vehicles, so make sure you get in touch next time you're down this way
Paul at Portreath had the space and the means to set up what he has, and a keen interest because he uses the autogas in one of his vehicles. I'm not sure there'll be anyone else willing and able to set up in Cornwall.
This will only change if we had someone actively promoting and converting vehicles in the area.

Colin

I'm usually on holiday when I'm in Cornwall mate lol!

Yes, Paul runs a Yank pickup truck, something like a Dodge Ram iIrc.

I'm not sure if it needs a decent LPG conversion firm in the county to promote LPG in the area, I convert a lot of vehicles to LPG for owners from Cornwall.. But there do need to be places selling LPG in the county.

[SteveMJ_new]

Thanks thats the one yes, thats also useful to know - I'm not sure where you are to be 20 miles away but guess its somewhere south of Luton area. Its a bit sparse around there with the few places left being unreliable and more often out than working (I'm a bit further north in MK and its not much better here at present time either).

I'm in a village just outside Welwyn Garden City. No suppliers near me When I had my car converted in 2009 there were a number of outlets close by; Tesco at Hatfield, a place in Hertford and a garage in NupEnd near Knebworth. I used to pass LPG stations to and from work as well. All these have stopped now.

Steve

[Brian_H]

Yep, much the same here, the only remaining station here is luckly just off the motorway junction, though I don't always pass that way, so it can mean a trip across town to get to it some times.

At least its still here for now. Know what you mean about stations you drive past that have stopped it. Shell Chase at Bicester, Oxford services at peartree, Chievely, BP at weston on the green, Shell Tothill and Shell Winnall are all on a route I regually drive down (A34 towards Winchester), and every one of them has now gone. The only on-route station there is the installer near Sutton Scottney and they are never open when I'm around there to use them. It means on that route the first place on route now is the Esso at Ringwood if I'm going that far, and if they still have LPG after their closure for the bridge works which I'm not sure they have, not that they were particually reliable before that happened.

Your closest would look to be Morissons in Enfield? Again not very reliable but still had the pump last I checked?

[jon_gulliver]

Brian, the Esso at Ringwood has opened after the bridge works and still has the lpg pump. It looks smart and clean which suggests it is there to stay, but as yet when I have passed, it hasn't had any gas. West Wellow is still open and seems very busy and currently charges £1.18 a litre so someone is doing very well out of that.

[SteveMJ_new]

I have just emailed my MP, Grant Schapps, who is also the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy .

My email was:
Dear Grant,
I am writing to express my concerns regarding the limited availability of Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) for cars in our area. As a constituent, I believe that we have a responsibility to reduce our carbon footprint and embrace cleaner energy sources to help combat climate change. I believe that improving the availability of LPG for cars is a viable and effective step towards achieving this goal.
LPG has many advantages over traditional gasoline or diesel fuel. It is a cleaner-burning fuel that produces significantly fewer greenhouse gas emissions than fossil fuels. LPG-powered vehicles also emit fewer pollutants, such as nitrogen oxide and particulate matter, which contribute to air pollution and respiratory health issues. Additionally, LPG is widely available, domestically produced, and more affordable than other alternative fuels, making it a practical and accessible option for consumers.
Despite these benefits, the availability of LPG refuelling stations in our area is now non-existent, which makes it difficult for consumers to choose this cleaner alternative. This is particularly concerning, given the increasing demand for cleaner energy sources and the urgent need to reduce our carbon emissions. As a result, I am writing to request your support in improving the availability of LPG refuelling stations in our area.
I believe that there are several ways in which you could help to promote the adoption of LPG for cars in our community. For example, you could work with local businesses and stakeholders to encourage the installation of LPG refuelling stations or advocate for government incentives to support the development of cleaner energy sources. You could also raise awareness about the benefits of LPG and encourage consumers to consider it as a cleaner alternative to traditional gasoline or diesel.
In conclusion, I believe that improving the availability of LPG for cars is a crucial step towards reducing our carbon footprint and addressing the urgent challenges of climate change. I would appreciate your support in promoting this cleaner alternative and working towards a more sustainable future.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Regards,

Stephen
(address added)

[Gilbertd]

Nicely put. In most European countries, LPG (or GPL or Autogas, depending on where you are) availability is far superior to here (Holland is actually installing more stations, while just about every filling station in Germany has it) and the benefits are recognised by France, Germany, Belgium and Holland by classifying LPG and CNG fuelled vehicles the same as a Hybrid in their equivalents to ULEZ. In fact Spain are introducing similar zones as from January 2024 and they also consider LPG to be preferable to petrol and diesel by giving it a lower classification. In the Eastern European countries, Poland, Lithuania and Latvia that I know of from personal experience but there may be more in other countries, there are LPG only filling stations requiring no more than a layby with a tank, pump and credit card machine. Minimal setup and running costs, no staff costs and can be open 24/7. Similar installations could be encouraged in this country in areas that are poorly served by the current filling station only installations.

[Avensist]

One example may be the government could offer reduced business rates on stations with LPG pumps to encourage new installations or revive previously decommissioned ones.

[Gilbertd]

One flaw in the whole argument is that if the data from DVLA is to be believed, there are only 150,000 cars running on LPG in the country. Now I very much doubt this is an accurate figure as some will have fuel type shown as Petrol/Gas, some as LPG/Petrol, some as BiFuel and any other number of variations. In addition, of 5 LPG cars I have owned, only 1 had had the V5 fuel type changed, the other 4 said Petrol. If that is a representative ratio, in reality there's half a million of us!

It is also a shame that Dacia, the only manufacturer to offer LPG as standard across the whole range, dropped the LPG option in the UK due to the lack if filling infrastructure.

[colin33]

One flaw in the whole argument is that if the data from DVLA is to be believed, there are only 150,000 cars running on LPG in the country. Now I very much doubt this is an accurate figure as some will have fuel type shown as Petrol/Gas, some as LPG/Petrol, some as BiFuel and any other number of variations. In addition, of 5 LPG cars I have owned, only 1 had had the V5 fuel type changed, the other 4 said Petrol. If that is a representative ratio, in reality there's half a million of us!

It is also a shame that Dacia, the only manufacturer to offer LPG as standard across the whole range, dropped the LPG option in the UK due to the lack if filling infrastructure.

I have all but given up trying to notify DVLA about one of my vehicles. They refuse to change the fuel type because I don't have a UKLPG registration cert to prove the change. I've sent them pics of the installation, and a copy of the last MOT emissions test which clearly shows the registration number and fuel type, tested on lpg. Someone clearly is trying to kill off the autogas industry in the UK.