Last month I converted another RX300, so I saw fit to join the Lexus Owners Club forum and post pics of this latest RX300 on the same thread. The quote below gives some insight into what happened next...
Since then there have been a few more messages exchanged between Lexus Owners Club Forum moderator Bluesman and myself. During the course of all this he has removed every post that I made on that forum (which amounted to only two posts and the second post didn't even mention the RX300 I had converted, neither post referred to another company, the second post only talked about valve lube systems being necessary on Lexus vehicles), removed his own posts that referred to me, barred me from posting directly (anything I post must now be approved seemingly by himself before it will appear on that forum) and now the latest - he has disabled my ability to send or even see private messages, even though the only person I ever sent a private message to on that forum was himself!LPGC wrote:Hi John, the forum admin Bluesman removed my post and sent me a stern PM explaining it was because I'd advertised. The gist of my reply was that although I implied a bit of an ad for myself (which would be the case anyway considering my username on other forum is also LPGC...), what I wrote wasn't a blatant off the cuff ad because it was on the same subject as your thread, and I could be of benefit to his forum as most of my time spent on forums is helping people with LPG problems without much in the way of an ad/benefit for myself... but I probably wouldn't do that as often if I couldn't sometimes put a word in for myself. He took exception again, reckoning I'd implied blackmail and implying they already have enough LPG experts (yeh rightsorcerer wrote:Absolutely, definitely one hundred percent highly recommend Simon in South Elmsall, Yorkshire http://www.lpgc.co.uk
He did our Lexus RX300 in July and did a brilliant job - couple of pictures here http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ ... rol-gauge/
By the way Simon, I could have sworn I saw a picture of another RX300 that you've done recently tagged on to the bottom of that topic but it's gone now. Was I seeing things or was it really there?)... I've just replied to that saying I didn't imply blackmail, it's common sense that I probably wouldn't reply as much if my business had to remain anonymous, and that I wouldn't have much faith in LPG expertise of Lexus forum users who aren't LPG specialists... And then I added that users on many forums are often pointed by others to Lpgforum and therefore to myself, so another way of looking at it is that traffic is diverted from those forums to this Lpgforum, with all the implications regards advertising revenues etc that entails
It's not like I was trying to advertise, say, poly-bushes by mail order while not helping forum users.. My intentions on forums are to help others while at the same time building recognition of my skills and expertise. If I were to start a thread on this forum (and I think I will) about the latest RX300 I just converted and how similar it is to your conversion, maybe you'd post a link to it from your relevant thread on that forum?
Thanks for the thumbs up from everyone
Simon
To a forum moderator who has disabled my ability to send or even see private messages on a forum it may seem I have no way of recovering those messages. But I do have a way, because before he disabled messages I copied and pasted them all to a text file, which I have now copied and pasted below. This may make for interesting reading for those who believed Lexus Owners Club Forum was transparent and unbiased. Though I can certainly see why a moderator would take issue with a blatant advert from a professional, particularly when other pros in the same field pay that forum to advertise, I see no legitimate reason why a forum moderator would go the considerable extra distance, which seems above their remit, to prevent others with expertise in that field from commenting at all.. Particularly when posts from such expert don't even imply advertising but include information that might prevent some of their forum members from suffering engine damage on their vehicles.
Since Lpgforum is referred to regularly on the Lexus forum when the subject of LPG conversion is brought up, I imagine this thread will be read by those discussing LPG on the Lexus forum. Of course, Bluesman may decide to go a bit more OTT and remove any mention of Lpgforum on the Lexus forum too, perhaps on pain of barring any Lexus forum member who mentions Lpgforum, or mentions myself, or mentions any other installer, or points out anything that might be interpreted as implying a negative point against his advertisers (whom incidentally converted his own vehicles)...Messages between forum moderator Bluesman and LPGC on Lexus Owners Club Forum wrote:Discussion 1: Conversation
Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Started conversation: October 27 · Report
If you wish to advertise your business on the LOC you will need to go through the proper channels and pay for the privilege. Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: October 27 · Report
No thanks Mike,
I never go for the direct sell on forums but I do give a lot of useful advice which other admins reckon increases forum usefulness, reads, memberships and attracts other advertisers. If I'm not allowed to occasionally start a thread on something I've done regards LPG I may visit a bit less often but no doubt writers of posts concerning LPG issues will be pointed to me on Lpgforum by others anyway. I thought Sorceror and others posting on his thread might be interested to see another RX300 converted very similarly to his, a bit of a cheeky advertisement opportunity without being totally blatant.
Thanks,
Simon
Quote Edit
Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Replied: October 27 · Report
Hi Simon, we have many very knowledgeable members on LPG already, I myself have run all my cars on LPG for the last 17 years. You cant try and blackmail us by saying if you are not allowed to cheekily advertise then you wont visit us as often, how often you visit is up to you but if you persist in advertising however cheeky you think it is you will be banned. All commercial outfits have to pay for their advertising there are no free rides.
The choice is yours. Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: October 28 · Report
Hi Mike,
I see a potential quandary for a forum admin - allow pros/experts to answer others questions which adds to forum usefulness/readership/potential ad revenues, this sometimes implying a bit of advertising for their business, or don't allow them - A business decision about striking the right balance because without knowledgeable people a forum isn't much use. There's a difference between an expert user who adds to forum usefulness and a trader blatantly advertising, say, mail order poly bushes who does nothing for forum usefulness. Pro experts aren't as likely to post without potential benefit to themselves, such as if their business had to remain anonymous - Not blackmail, common sense. As Lpgforum's perhaps best expert and definitely most prolific poster I probably generate most of the interest in the site, I certainly wouldn't pay Lpgforum I would start my own forum first! Regardless of whether I am allowed to post on other forums, those with LPG issues on other forums are often pointed to Lpgforum and therefore to myself - or another way of looking at it, diverted from the forum they were reading to me Lpgforum and myself. This happens on a regular basis even though there are many users of LPG, some with a fair bit of knowledge, on other forums.
I posted a pic of an RX300 I just converted on a thread where another of my RX300 conversions was pictured by another user - OK except for what I wrote? Could you clear up what type of things I can/cannot post? If I reply on a post about an LPG issue should I refrain from saying I am an LPG pro? If so, what if another user points out that I am an LPG pro?
Regards, Simon
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Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Replied: October 28 · Report
Hi Simon, I am assuming you have not read the T&Cs of the forum. Here's a link http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/terms-conditions/
The one rule which is pertinent to your situation reads as follows...... Don’t post any message that even hints at advertising.
Regards Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: October 29 · Report
Hi Mike,
I hadn't read the T&C's because I expected them to be the same as other forums, just read them following your prompt.
So can I post a pic of the other RX300 on Sorceror's thread and write something that doesn't hint at advertising like 'snap!, or would you class my posting the pic as advertising even though the relevancy is there?
Regards,
Simon
Discussion 2: Conversation
Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Started conversation: Wednesday at 01:10 PM · Report
There are two ways of doing things the right way and the wrong way and you seem set on the wrong way regarding the LOC. What other forums do has no bearing on what the LOC allow or not allow.
I warned you on more than one occasion that if you wanted to advertise your business on the LOC you would need to pay as everyone else has too.
I also warned you that Any members opposing a moderator’s decision should do so with the moderator directly by using PM or email in a professional manner. Any member purposely creating posts or threads opposing a moderators’ decision will result in the member’s forum account being closed permanently however you still continued too discuss it in the open forum.
Any further posts will now be subject to moderators checking first before being allowed on the open forum. Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: Wednesday at 06:19 PM · Report
Hi Mike,
In reply to your previous PM I would like to oppose some of your decisions - Is there another forum moderator I could discuss with please?
Why have you deleted further posts, including your own post - in which you quoted my post (in full) and then went on to give a massive thumbs up to Profess without addressing any of the factual points I'd made? And in the process managing a lot of generalisation (which you reckon you're against) based on your comparatively very limited experience and lack of any insider or technical knowledge (compared to my own).
You have had your own vehicle(s) converted by Profess and Profess are 'authorised merchants' on this forum. Does that equate to bias for Profess by this forum? Or by yourself? If the answer to either of those questions is yes then how (and this links back to a similar point I made to you in an earlier PM) do you reckon that effect this forum's impartiality and usefulness to users?
It is easy to win an argument and make your point publicly when you are able to easily mute/delete arguments made by others that you'd rather not be made. I wonder if you didn't like my factual points about OMVL reducers being capable of flowing enough gas for little over 200bhp / all Japanese vehicles should be fitted with an engine valve lubrication system in order to prevent VSR...
The latter point might save some of your forum users suffering engine damage to their vehicles but might also by implication be seen as a negative against some installers. In an earlier PM to you I also mentioned potential quandary situations for forum moderators.. is this type of situation a quandary for you or should allowing info like that be a no brainer?
So far you have: Deleted my post (which contained a picture of an RX300 I converted in October 2016) on the same thread as one started by one of your other forum users on the subject of his RX300 that I converted in June 2016. Deleted multiple posts made by me (and by yourself) on a thread entitled something like 'Pics of my LS400 converted by Profess'. On this thread one of your forum users has recommended me to another user and in my posts I gave factual information without mentioning any company names. All of my posts were relevant and might have proved useful for some of your forum readers, particularly on the point of engine valve lube systems.
Simon
Quote Edit
Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Replied: Thursday at 06:47 PM · Report
Hi I haven't ignored your last PM but have been in London since last night. I have only just arrived home and I am absolutely worn out so to write you a full reply to your last PM I will leave it until tomorrow. Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: Thursday at 09:52 PM · Report
No problem Mike, thanks for the reply.
Regards,
Simon
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Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Replied: Friday at 04:52 PM · Report
Hi Simon. Once again sorry for the delay in answering your last PM to me.
Advertisers on the LOC do so and have to pay. Now if you were one of those that had paid and then this guy comes along and advertises his business for free you would quite rightly be outraged and its those advertisers that we are protecting.
You mention the fact that I have spoken of Profess on a number of occasions. Anyone of the membership can post about a good deal or good service from any company with out breaking the LOC T&Cs, the reason for that is that the person who is nominating them does not have any financial gain by promoting the company. Doing what you did was was trying to advertise for free a company that you own and again that's not fair to those that do pay for the privilege.
When I first put that to you about having to pay for advertising your reply was you dont pay for advertising and just add any advertising in a cheeky manner, I replied to you that you couldn't do that. your reply to that was, other forums allow promoting and advertising without payment and that the LOC would be the poorer for not getting LPG knowledge as you wouldn't be able to post if you couldn't cheekily advertise. I told you that all forums are different and have different rules, I advised you too read the T&Cs of the LOC and you said you did but it didn't stop you from answering a post on the thread in question by saying that you spent most of your time at work sorting out other peoples LPG mistakes. The T&Cs say that you cant even hint at advertising but you obviously never got that far in the T&Cs or chose to ignore that rule.
When members have had LPG problems if we haven't got a member come up with a solution they have often gone to the UKLPG site so the same knowledge can be found.
The rules also state that if you have a problem with the moderators decision you must either reply by PM or email how ever you also chose to ignore that rule by posting on the thread your dissatisfaction with what I had done.
We welcome knowledgeable members from any quarter but you have announced too the membership that you own an LPG business and therefore makes it almost impossible for you too post which is why I have put Content Moderated on your account to see if it can work with your postings.
I will also advise you should you should think of contacting the LOC membership by using PMs will result in an immediate ban.
I know you wont be happy with what I have replied but this is my final word on the subject. Regards Mike.
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: Friday at 07:07 PM · Report
Hi Mike,
Where have I said on forum that I convert vehicles, especially now that you have deleted posts? Other people have pointed that out but on this forum there is currently no content from myself. Even so, you seem to be more or less saying that I cannot comment on LPG matters, on pain of receiving a ban, just in case any point I make might reflect negatively on those advertisers you wish to protect?
Where have I advertised? Other than discussing technical points regards LPG I don't see that I have, again especially since you have deleted all my posts.
Where would you set the balance between useful information on the forum and protecting advertisers? I.e. Suppose an advertiser is in the business of converting vehicles to LPG but does not install engine valve lube systems on vehicles on which they are necessary to prevent VSR, is it still better to protect them than to allow forum members to be told that kind of information by someone with technical knowledge whom has not paid to advertise? Would you delete a post by a user who was not an LPG pro if in that post they mentioned such points that might be seen as a negative against your advertiser?
I'm not allowed to send PM's to other forum users now either? I will certainly have the phone numbers of some of those with LPG fitted I've seen on this forum because I converted their vehicles. Again, no threat or blackmail implied but just common sense. Will I be banned if I phone or txt or chat on a different forum to those people? Will people be banned if they refer to me / mention that I am a good LPG pro? It would seem a slippery slope to get started on.
I'm afraid it seems to me that your thoughts/methods on protecting advertisers goes over the top. I would have thought that paying to be allowed to advertise would put advertises in a position where they could blatantly advertise, as in 'LPG conversions from £900, the busiest in Wales, come to us', rather than being so obviously protected by a moderator(s) on that forum, perhaps to the detriment of some forum users and the forum itself.
No insinuations of under handed dealing implied but I did ask if I could discuss with another moderator, are you the only one?
Regards,
Simon
Quote Edit
Bluesman
Bluesman 604
Replied: yesterday at 12:04 AM · Report
On 04/11/2016 at 7:07 PM, Lpgc said:
Hi Mike,
Where have I said on forum that I convert vehicles, especially now that you have deleted posts? Other people have pointed that out but on this forum there is currently no content from myself. Even so, you seem to be more or less saying that I cannot comment on LPG matters, on pain of receiving a ban, just in case any point I make might reflect negatively on those advertisers you wish to protect?
Where have I advertised? Other than discussing technical points regards LPG I don't see that I have, again especially since you have deleted all my posts.
Where would you set the balance between useful information on the forum and protecting advertisers? I.e. Suppose an advertiser is in the business of converting vehicles to LPG but does not install engine valve lube systems on vehicles on which they are necessary to prevent VSR, is it still better to protect them than to allow forum members to be told that kind of information by someone with technical knowledge whom has not paid to advertise? Would you delete a post by a user who was not an LPG pro if in that post they mentioned such points that might be seen as a negative against your advertiser?
I'm not allowed to send PM's to other forum users now either? I will certainly have the phone numbers of some of those with LPG fitted I've seen on this forum because I converted their vehicles. Again, no threat or blackmail implied but just common sense. Will I be banned if I phone or txt or chat on a different forum to those people? Will people be banned if they refer to me / mention that I am a good LPG pro? It would seem a slippery slope to get started on.
I'm afraid it seems to me that your thoughts/methods on protecting advertisers goes over the top. I would have thought that paying to be allowed to advertise would put advertises in a position where they could blatantly advertise, as in 'LPG conversions from £900, the busiest in Wales, come to us', rather than being so obviously protected by a moderator(s) on that forum, perhaps to the detriment of some forum users and the forum itself.
No insinuations of under handed dealing implied but I did ask if I could discuss with another moderator, are you the only one?
Regards,
Simon
Simon. Please read what I have put properly as you clearly haven't understood.
Of course we protect advertisers right to advertise against those that dont or wont pay for advertising, you would expect the same if you ever paid for it.
As for discussing it with another moderator read the T&Cs thoroughly.
If you want to advertise what you do for a living then like everywhere else its going to cost you money.
With regards to what you have advertised in the past, read your posts and keep in mind as you read them "you are not allowed to even HINT at advertising"
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Lpgc
Lpgc 0
Replied: just now · Report
Hi Mike,
I re-read what you put in PM's and I re-read the T&C's but still I don't see a direct answer to my question about discussing with another moderator. Above you explained if someone has a problem with a moderators (plural?) decision they must contact 'the' moderator... so that's an appeals procedure then? An appeals procedure should surely involve a third party or it would be all too obvious what the outcome would be (same as the original outcome)?
I'll try to impress one of the points I tried explaining in my last message to you in a different context so hopefully you'll understand and manage a reply, because so far my point hasn't been answered - To what extent should you be protecting advertisers? I.e. What if an advertisers product may lead to engine damage for readers of your forum, should you still remove any posts that point that out?
Do you only accept a single advertiser for a particular type of product? If the forum allows multiple advertisers for the same type of product and there is a disagreement between them, how could you protect each from the claims of other? The implications are perhaps one of the reasons why it seems to me you go over the top in terms of advertiser protection. An example situation - If I were to pay for advertising and point out that I fit valve lubrication systems on all Japanese vehicles that I convert to prevent VSR engine damage but another of your advertisers (that converts vehicles) did not fit valve lubrication systems then readers could gather form that the the other firms product could lead to engine damage, yet your stance would mean you'd need to protect both of us by allowing me to promote my firm by saying I fit valve lube systems to prevent VSR and... well, how could you protect the other firm in this situation? You would have put yourself in an impossible position. And indeed in terms of useful, full and correct content on the forum that might help prevent readers suffer engine damage you might be putting yourself in that position even without my advertising. This is probably why other forums allow users to pay for blatant advertising but do not get involved in defending advertisers other than preventing blatant advertising by those that have not paid for advertising. To some forum users, knowledge of the forum or a moderators stance of protecting advertisers from all contesting comments or even negative discussion of an advertisers product may come as surprising and when this position is so vehemently upheld by a single moderator who has had dealings with the advertiser and seems on friendly terms with them this may lead to users questioning the moderators stance and motives.
I cannot read my posts because you have deleted all of them. You have even deleted your own posts in which you referred to me / quoted me, so at the moment there is zero content from me on this forum. Although of course we'll both remember what was said and moderators may still have access to them.
I feel it necessary to ask you again if there is another moderator I can discuss this with? If you like to be considered as at all open by forum users including myself then I would be surprised if you didn't think this a good idea too.
And incidentally, how would I go about advertising on your forum please?
Regards,
Simon
Simon
