8 pot kit, 6 pot lump

[roggy roo]

Looking into converting my BMW E39 525.
Only way to make a kit pay for itself is to keep swapping it from car to car.
Did that a few times before with my old Tec97/Omvl kit and BRC kit, that I still have.
If the BMW breaks in an expensive way then I might go for a 540, 8 pot or Saab Aero 2.3 4 pot, Turbo next.

Anyway question is buy a KME based 8 cylinder kit (Nevo pro, Gold reducer Hana 2002 injectors) and run that on the 6 pot lump.
Haven't run a injection LPG setup before, I assume I can run the 2 x 4 injector rails, 2 injectors been redundant, everything else is down to the software setup.
Is there any way of fixing an injector in the closed position, just the thought of the injector sitting on the rail with pressure behind it, even if it's not connected makes me a bit paranoid, it 'might' leak gas into the bay, at some point.

Really want to get this in and running by Christmas, then I can tweak it over chrimbo and give it a goodly dose of loud pedal on the quieter roads.

[Tubbs]

If the injector plug isn't connected. And not wired to the petrol injector AND sEt on 6 cylinder. It's not going to leak or fire that injector into the bay. You have no worries there. And certianly no need to feel paranoid about it.

[rich r]

As an alternative, maybe consider using individual injectors rather than ones on rails? That way if you only need 6 or 4 on your next car, you simply don't fit them. OK it'll cost more but does give you a bit more flexibility if you are planning on using it on different engines - and puts your mind to rest about disconnected injectors leaking (although as Tubbs said, there's no real risk of that as the gas pressure will keep them closed with no electrical power to pull them open).

[LPGC]

Agreed with all above advice.

If still concerned about leaks (wouldn't happen but to put your own mind at rest)... Run a pipe between the 2 unused injectors, or run a pipe to each injector blanked off at one end.

I wouldn't be over keen on using 8 injectors on a V8 when previously used only 6 out of those 8 for a long time on a 6 pot engine - For same reason we generally think it's better to replace injectors in sets than half new and half old (use and wear effecting spec very slightly over time) but this is more relevant to some injector designs than others - Would at least confirm all 8 performed the same after fitting anyway.

Have you seen this thread http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13978 ? Hana's on rails aren't much smaller than the BRC injectors pictured.. Like Rich says, maybe consider fitting single Hana's, or a different type altogether. No good fitting decent injectors if you then have to run long pipe runs between injectors and manifold nozzles because injectors are too cumbersome to allow short pipe lengths.

Simon

[Tubbs]

I think that wholly depends on how the op changes his cars !
I swapped a kit off my Volvo onto a 4 cylinder car. Then swapped the loom and Ecu over to a 6 pot. And the 'master' lol injectors ran perfectly well. So that's a 5 cyl turbo. To a normally exasperated 4 to a high output 6. In the space of 40k without any adverse effects at all. But I can see your point though Simon. I was expecting it to be a problem. But it seems perfectly fine in this instance !

[LPGC]

Agreed mate. Mind you, once tried some Master injectors when I was after some 2x2 rails for a VW flat 4. A supplier hyped them up to me but I found them about as much real life master as Lee Van Cleef , removed them after 10mins and they've been on a shelf gathering dust since!

Simon

[Tubbs]

I know ! Pile of shit. Maybe I got a good set.
Sometimes you get lucky. I did a real cheap gas conversion on a 2.0 turbo forester well over 2 years ago on a set of valtek 30's, blokes a mate. So no reputation to loose. I told him at £24 I really didn't expect them
to last long.
30k later. They haven't missed a beat ! And I've seen other sets of 30's go down in 10k.
You really couldn't make this stuff up could you. Lol.

[roggy roo]

Righty ho, cheers for the answers, finding out how the injectors work makes me feel better.
Lighten my wallet to the tune of £500 ish notes on the LPG shop then, there's nothing of my old LPG kits that's of any use, apart from the tanks, still loath to bin it though.
LPGC I don't care about re-fitting the cover over the inlet manifold, so I reacon I can take an inch or 2 out of the injector hose lines compared to the setup in that thread you've linked.
Using 2 rails should reduce the hose lengths a bit too.

As an aside I remember seeing an adapter somewhere, years ago, might have been McMaster Carr, Female to Male Injector adapter with a lpg injector nozzle on the side.
Existing Petrol injector plugs into female side then adapter plugs into the manifold, no need to drill the manifold.
Anyone seen them 'in the wild'

[Tubbs]

Yes. I used them a few times. Never really got on with them. The idea was very good in principle. But in practice the petrol side of the car went a little squiffy. I led myself to conclude it was down to the injector being slightly spaced up from its seat. Everything sealed up ok. Just didn't run very nicely after.

[LPGC]

Thing that put me off Master injectors was they didn't seem linear below 4ms.

Roggy, Yeh if you don't mind leaving covers off etc, options can sometimes be much wider regards components. Another way of doing it on BMW straight 6's is to mount injectors over valve cover, which would allow manifold cover to go back on and allow shorter pipe lengths but mean injectors would need to be moved to access spark plugs and mean most injectors would be on their side - but your injectors will be on their side anyway unless you fit singular. On a lot of cheap/done quick installs, I note installers sometimes do refit manifold cover but mount injectors to manifold cover with double sided sticky pads!

Those injector adaptors suit some engines better than others (that was always going to be the case), I agree with Tubbs that spacing petrol injectors from manifold can cause problems, particularly on fussy engines like BMW 6's. Also on BMW6's, fuel feed to petrol rail is tight at the rear of the engine and there is usually a tight bit of wiring loom in same area.. Would need to address those aspects to allow use of injector risers but even then the narrow bit of engine cover that goes over injector area on some BMW6's wouldn't refit.

Simon

[Tubbs]

It was the BMW I was thinking of actually.
They are fussy. And the injector seating is terribly tight as is. But they do open up possibilities on some engines.

[roggy roo]

Yes. I used them a few times. Never really got on with them. The idea was very good in principle. But in practice the petrol side of the car went a little squiffy. I led myself to conclude it was down to the injector being slightly spaced up from its seat. Everything sealed up ok. Just didn't run very nicely after.

Had a feeling those adapters could throw things out by messing with the injector to inlet throat or valve distance, that's in the cases when doesn't throw the rail out so much you struggle to bolt it down again.

Anyway, most of the kit has arrived, couple bits short, one bit slightly faulty, that'll be returned, some bits I forgot to order.

Forgot inlet nozzles, vapour filter.
Mocked a few bits in position to see how they'd fit, vaporiser on the inner wing by the throttle, injectors bolted to top of petrol injector rail, handy bolt holes for the cover that's now in the boot.
Injector to inlet hoses about 6 1/2" probably less when I get the nozzles in and get trimming.
The 2 gas lines from vaporiser to injector rails need to be the same length, including the gas pressure/map sensor on one gas line from the vaporiser, I'm guessing.
The vapour filter, I'm planning on a 'H' filter 2 lines in and out, any rules about it's position, pre/post sensor, closer to injectors or vaporiser?
Where to I put the vaporiser temp sensor, KME's diagrams aren't too handy on that count, unless they really want me to start drilling holes in the vaporiser?

Been browsing the KME schematic for about 2 days before it suddenly occurred to me that there was no mention of tapping the lambda sensors.

[LPGC]

Ideally 2 gas lines should be same length, though in practice won't make any difference on this install (not powerful enough engine to see much difference in pressure at rails with bit difference pipe lengths).
Usually a good idea to fit sensor close to injectors but won't make much difference on this install. H filter, where possible, can act as a balance pipe between feeds to injectors, so sensor before H filter means no difference in pipe flow after H filter - again won't make any difference on this install.
KME reducer - remove screw holding metal plate which secures water pipe connections, sensor fits in it's place, don't over-tighten! If sensor is too long you could cut it to reduce length or fit washer(s). When I sell DIY kits that include KME reducers I supply pictures that show how to do this...
Depending on which KME system you fitted there may not be any lambda wires, other KME system has purple wire in same loom as rpm wire but no need to tap lambda anyway. Nevo wiring can be confusing as some of the petrol injector wiring (petrol breaks and LPG injectors) are doubled up but not fully doubled up (isn't a corresponding pet inj out for pet inj in), if you have Nevo make sure you don't start wiring in the wrong set!

Simon.

[roggy roo]

Thanks for the answers.
It's Nevo PRO/ODB.
Should be the last question now.
There's a picture of the temp sensor pointing at the reducer in the Schematic, unfortunately is doesn't show the nut leaving the reducer
http://nevo.kme.eu/en/images/schematy_n ... VO_pro.pdf
This schematic is confusing, over the petrol injectors.
2 lines for each injector 'W from Nevo and Positive line from petrol ECU go to the injector.
'S' line from Nevo that needs to be cut.

Using my donkey logic, splice Nevo into injector positive line but don't cut.
Cut injector negative connect to Nevo.

[Tubbs]

Cut injector negative wire. It's got two pairs to each injector. Grey / grey black trace. Yellow / yellow black trace. The black trace always goes back to the petrol Ecu. If that's what your asking ?

[LPGC]

There's a picture of the temp sensor pointing at the reducer in the Schematic, unfortunately is doesn't show the nut leaving the reducer

My post above explains how the reducer temp sensor is secured to the reducer.

On petrol injector wiring, like Tubbs says just make sure you're looking at corresponding pairs of 6 wires none striped and 6 wires striped. As said, some of the petrol injector wires are duplicated but not fully duplicated and not duplicated in pairs.. If you connect one of those duplicate wires to petrol injectors you will find there isn't a corresponding wire in that loom to connect to the other side of the cut in the petrol injector wire.

Purely from memory, for a V6 you'd need to re-arrange / re-group petrol injector wires (take some of the pairs of wires out of plastic sheath and move into other plastic sheath) - I believe Nevo has wires for cylinders 1-4 in one sheath and 5-6 in another, bit strange! But this won't be a problem on your straight 6 engine (just re-read, you have a BMW 6 cylinder)...

Simon

[roggy roo]

OK cheers chaps.
Should have enough info to get the hardware installed now, just need to hunt out the ECU pinouts to connect the ODB bit of it.

[LPGC]

OK cheers chaps.
Should have enough info to get the hardware installed now, just need to hunt out the ECU pinouts to connect the ODB bit of it.

I wouldn't connect OBD on this install but even if you intend to do so there's no need for this to slow you down at this point?

Simon