BMW 550i V8 - omvl or BRC or something else?

[da_murphster]

Just looking to get my new (to me) E60 BMW 550i touring fitted out with LPG. I have had many years and miles out of my BRC kit on my E39 and considered going BRC again.

The Bristol based installer I am considering is keen I consider omvl instead of BRC - anyone know if they are good/bad? The price difference is about £400 (extra for BRC)

Car is a 4.8 V8 with 362bhp (and I might try and extract a few more)

[LPGC]

What year car is it?

Simon

[da_murphster]

What year car is it?

Simon

Its a 2006 car.

[da_murphster]

BTW - I'm still not 100% if I will meddle with it or not (should probaly resist!).

I'm likely to change the exhaust and a remap - so probably somewhere about 400bhp at the end.

I'm struggling to find installers - just avonautogas in the area (as I believe Rossko is not doing them at the moment?)

[mondeoman]

I wouldn't touch OMVL with a bargepole, but that is just one opinion based on one bad experience.

[LPGC]

OMVL is an AEB based system, so same ECU as other AEB based systems such as King, Bigas, Emer, Romano, Zavoli Alisei, etc. Really little difference between AEB ECUs. I like AEB ECUs for most 8 cylinder installs (not all because they do have problems on specific vehicles) but I no longer like them for anything but 8 cyl installs. OMVL reducers used to be one of the best in terms of flow (Dream reducer), never great at pressure stability but the flow ability made it a decent reducer. Recent (Dream) units are still not great at pressure stability but don't flow as well as the old ones, so not a good reducer anymore! OMVL make another reducer now too (CPR) but the CPR is best suited to less powerful stuff, the installer would likely be fitting one Dream reducer - not capable enough for your engine, though 2 might be OK! OMVL injectors are a decent workmanlike injector, reliable, more linear than some competitor AEB system injectors, flow well, but are just a bit noisy.

Is this 4.6 Beemer a Valvetronic model (likely it is)?
If not, then it will be an easy conversion and a wide range of systems would give good results.
If so, then I would be very careful which installer you have convert it. If you convert a Valvetronic engine with BRC, then if there is a bit of an issue, don't expect the installer to know how to sort it (the installer will have uploaded a calibration file that he was sent, will very likely have little skill at manually adjusting settings).

Any issues with a Valvetronic conversion fitted in the South, any system not just BRC... expect to need a fair drive North to get it sorted. I'm in Yorkshire

Bit of technical stuff regards Valvetronics on this thread. http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... 84#p106084

Simon

[Sir Henry]

I'm prejudiced. I prefer (when possible) to have the Stag systems fitted. They come from Poland where LPG conversions have been worked on for decades. My late father was Polish and he worked fine up until the minute of his death!

However it would be interesting to know just how Crewe fed LPG into the Rolls and Bentley engines to run them in on the bench.

Unlike some Italian systems they're all good.

Now wait for the disagreements to start avalanching in.

[da_murphster]

As an update to this I have just realised that BRC UK are based in Bath just down the road from me so I have been talking to them direct about who has most experience - has opened the field a bit to some other local fitters -

Monkton Combe, Autogas Logistics and Gas & Go

[Sir Henry]

My understanding is that BRC buy in a lot of components - injectors, harnesses, controllers, etc.

[rossko]

BRC make more of their own kit than anyone else (manufactured by M.T.M., sold as BRC, same company)

[Sir Henry]

More does not necessarily translate as all. Some of my information may be out of date, though.

[rossko]

This page gives an interesting read about the manufacturers of parts supplied in A.C. (Stag brand) kits
http://www.ac.com.pl/en/produkt/319/minikit-ac
I'm not really sure what your point is - BRC must be terrible because they buy in rubber hose? Stag must be brilliant, because, um, they also buy in stuff? It's pretty standard practice in any system supply business to buy in components from specialists. I don't think even Rolls-Royce ever made tyres or light bulbs?

[Gilbertd]

I don't think even Rolls-Royce ever made tyres or light bulbs?

Or clutches, brakes, alternators, starters, oil filters, air filters, bearings, and most of the other parts that go to make up a car. Car manufacturers don't make cars, they bolt together lots of bits, most of which are made by other specialist suppliers.

[LPGC]

BRC make more of their own kit than anyone else (manufactured by M.T.M., sold as BRC, same company)

Agreed. I don't remember discussing front end systems with Sir Henry when he visited but might have! If so, I wouldn't have advised BRC or Stag, wouldn't have said BRC buy in lots of stuff as the only components that come to mind would be Bosch pressure sensors on certain BRC systems. BRC make their own injectors, ECUs, reducers, switches, etc. Most other systems, with odd exceptions of lesser known systems, buy in many major components.

I also agree with it doesn't matter if bits are bought in (as long as they are good of course). In fact I would go further and say I prefer manufacturers to use generic components as this opens up choice of components and helps future proof the system.

Stag ECUs are usually bundled with low spec other components. It is usually suppliers that decide which parts are in bundled kits but most such bundles from suppliers will be sold to DIYers and installers that aren't particular when it comes to components (either because they're going to fit the bundled 'deal price' kit on an undemanding vehicle or because they are oblivious regards component specs).

I have no issues fitting Stag on most vehicles if that's what the customer wishes, the only reservations I have regards Stag is that it is now over-priced when similar ECUs that I rate as better cost less, including one of my favourite ECU's for most 4 & 6 cylinder vehicles - KME, which is also Polish.

Stag has never had a great reputation and probably never will. It was one of the least expensive and featureless ECUs available when first sold in the UK, and it has gone on to be the system of choice fitted by most done in a day installers. Some of Stag's more recently introduced 'advanced' features seem to be particularly aimed at done in a day installers and DIYers - namely, the autotune functions. To the layman, a system with this kind of functionality might seem ideal but better pros know that the autotuning usually makes a mess of things and cannot compensate for basic installer errors...

I have just fitted a second LPG tank on a y2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4L. The (obviously) done in a day installer made a cock-up of the original install, a real thoughtless job. For starters they fitted a 50odd litre 30deg tank when a 79 litre 0deg fits in the Jeep wheel well. The front end comprises Stag ECU, KME silver reducer and OMVL injectors - all appropriate parts, except the OMVL injectors were fitted with 2mm nozzles, the reducer and working pressure set at 1.2bar. It should have been obvious to any installer that 2mm nozzles and 1.2 bar would not flow enough for the 666cc cylinders even if it does idle at 4ms Pinj. When Pinj was at 10ms, Ginj was at 20ms. There was no way this was ever going to work properly, the engine running potentially ruinously lean when worked hard, the autobox clunking with every gear change. The installer had made it difficult to put oil in the engine having fitted piping and the pressure sensor right on top of the engine oil filler cap between the 2 rails. The combined pressure and gas temp sensor was never going to read correct gas temp because it was installed between the 2 rails with the rails fed from the far ends (no flow past the temp sensor). Had a kink in the reducer supply Faro pipe near the reducer, the reducer itself mounted to the top of the offside front shock absorber, the ECU not secured... the list goes on! Owner advised poor drive-ability, engine warning light always on, said that one garage had advised he needed a new petrol injector as OBD reported petrol injector number one not connected. Given the shoddy workmanship I suspected the petrol injector error would be due to dodgy injector break wiring but tests confirmed the garage findings with the petrol injector itself going open circuit when hot. I got 6 injectors and the rail from a scrapped Jeep for £30 and have just installed them, removed injector nozzles and re-calibrated the system, it runs fine now on petrol and/or LPG, changes gear smoothly, runs the correct mixture with low trims all the time even at high loads.

People are becoming more aware of done in a day installs compromises in terms of install quality, system calibration and general end results. What I'm finding now is that dodgy installers are telling people they don't do done in a day installs, instead they advise 2 or 3 days. The thing is, they still install to the same standard as they did when they fitted in a day, just that the increasingly aware customer thinks 'ahh not a done in a day installer, that's a positive'.

Simon

[scottyf]

Better of fitting it yourself and taking your time. Mine took two full weekends to really install. And a couple weeks to get it properly set up. Past the mot etc.

But even so I kniw there are things I could do better.

Wiring could be neater.
Injectors are 20cm away from inlet. Could be shorter
tank if I did it again id pick a large cylinder and loose boot space. Thats more preferences though.
Parts all okay and although not amazibg do yhe job well
I'm sure my tuning could be better

but over 12k now with no issues or warning lights and 26mpg average I'm happy with it.

But im sure if I dropped it into a pro those above points they could get just right.
Its like im 90% there from perfect. But that last ten percent is experience.

[LPGC]

etter of fitting it yourself and taking your time. Mine took two full weekends to really install. And a couple weeks to get it properly set up. Past the mot etc.

But even so I kniw there are things I could do better.

Wiring could be neater.
Injectors are 20cm away from inlet. Could be shorter
tank if I did it again id pick a large cylinder and loose boot space. Thats more preferences though.
Parts all okay and although not amazibg do yhe job well
I'm sure my tuning could be better

but over 12k now with no issues or warning lights and 26mpg average I'm happy with it.

But im sure if I dropped it into a pro those above points they could get just right.
Its like im 90% there from perfect. But that last ten percent is experience.

Scotty, mate....

Advising everyone to 'fit their own system' almost regardless of what vehicle is being discussed might be too generic a comment - you don't really believe one time amateurs and full time pros are on a similar skill level in the pros profession?

By now, everyone who comes on this forum even sporadically will likely be aware you converted your Alfa to LPG yourself with help and advice from pros on this forum (you have mentioned it often enough ). The Alfa is a simple conversion and this model Beemer won't be nearly so simple. But if you think it is a simple job, you might be able to help on this thread.. http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=13790

From a good pro, the points you listed as 'could be better' about your install would already be better, and going back further still appropriate parts would have been chosen from experience rather than from... Incidentally, how did you decide which parts to fit (not from experience is a given / manufacturer specs are misleading in the real world)?

Those aspects on your car that you reckon it would be nice to have sorted, including supplying and fitting a different tank, wiring, calibration, moving injectors, etc, probably wouldn't total more than about £350 if someone came to me for it doing - and that would be a very reasonable fee. But hang on, that's about how much I would have made from supplying and fitting the full system from scratch. Having paid that, how much would you have saved by fitting the system yourself on the simple job? Not much to cock far up on the Alfa compared to the Beemer - And this is coming from a pro who sells DIY kits with tech support!

While at school one of my mates had a job at a chippy and much of his work time was spent peeling spuds (they didn't have a rumbler machine). Peeling spuds is a simple job which anyone can do, but I bet back then he could peel spuds much quicker and waste much less of spuds than a half decent chef. Could probably peel all the spuds that an average chip and roast potato loving family could eat in a few weeks in about 10p worth of his time, while saving more than 10p worth of the spuds that average chef would have wasted Dunno what job you do but someone pays you to do it because you'give good results and are cost effective at it... The last comment is arguably more relevant in niche areas, like LPG conversion of techy vehicles. I know DIYers and done in a day pro installers could convert your Alfa without much problem, I know probably not the Beemer.

Simon

[lpg-cars]

Is this 4.6 Beemer a Valvetronic model (likely it is)?
If not, then it will be an easy conversion and a wide range of systems would give good results.
If so, then I would be very careful which installer you have convert it. If you convert a Valvetronic engine with BRC, then if there is a bit of an issue, don't expect the installer to know how to sort it (the installer will have uploaded a calibration file that he was sent, will very likely have little skill at manually adjusting settings).

Simon

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. BRC does not supply programs/maps for all installations. You cannot download maps from their website and they do not come preprogrammed for the car in the kit. All usual installations require programming from scratch or loading a map from our own previously converted car database with the same engine etc and then fine tuning. This only works if the firmware on the previous installation is the same as the new one, if too old, it will tell you that you can't upload an older version than in the new ECU.
We have converted hundreds of cars with BRC equipment and have only used BRC supplied maps for direct injection systems. These have been endurance tested by BRC and all the parameters are preset but still have to be fine tuned to the vehicle.
They used to have a preset ECU for Transits on Powershift but again, that was a very limited application.

Some installers are better than others regardless of what equipment they fit and I'm sure that your impression may well fit a BRC installer somewhere.

[LPGC]

Is this 4.6 Beemer a Valvetronic model (likely it is)?
If not, then it will be an easy conversion and a wide range of systems would give good results.
If so, then I would be very careful which installer you have convert it. If you convert a Valvetronic engine with BRC, then if there is a bit of an issue, don't expect the installer to know how to sort it (the installer will have uploaded a calibration file that he was sent, will very likely have little skill at manually adjusting settings).

Simon

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. BRC does not supply programs/maps for all installations. You cannot download maps from their website and they do not come preprogrammed for the car in the kit. All usual installations require programming from scratch or loading a map from our own previously converted car database with the same engine etc and then fine tuning. This only works if the firmware on the previous installation is the same as the new one, if too old, it will tell you that you can't upload an older version than in the new ECU.
We have converted hundreds of cars with BRC equipment and have only used BRC supplied maps for direct injection systems. These have been endurance tested by BRC and all the parameters are preset but still have to be fine tuned to the vehicle.
They used to have a preset ECU for Transits on Powershift but again, that was a very limited application.

Some installers are better than others regardless of what equipment they fit and I'm sure that your impression may well fit a BRC installer somewhere.

Hello!

Since you've taken exception to what I said I'm sure you're one of the better installers that knows how to set systems up from scratch. You mentioned 'for all installations' and I agree, but isn't it the case that in many of these exceptions, maps are entered for one particular model of vehicle (which may not be the vehicle the system is being fitted to) and then quite simply adapted to suit the vehicle being converted... Which then might prompt the question... has the installer simply adjusted a few 'twiddle factors' for fueling, example the very simple at idle / off idle adjustment scroll bars, which are rather course and cannot be truly considered mapping, or has the installer indeed done a map from scratch (including correct methodologies etc).

I am rather sceptical of both BRC and Prins installers, maybe from far and wide but seemingly particularly in this area, because I have never seen a decent job of mapping from such installers on any system except BRC and Prins. Begging the question why, and it seems to me the answer is in my original comment.

A particular shortfall from BRC installers seems to be disregarding the ratio (multiplier) of Pinj versus Ging. But when you have a system that shows Pinj with appropriate DC but only shows DC for Ginj (not Ginj itself) this isn't surprising. Half the drive ability issues I sort on BRC systems are due to the installer seemingly expecting the impossible from gas injectors, or maybe not expecting any effect at all from low Ginj duration. Should have fitted smaller nozzled injectors, shame you can't turn down reducer pressure....

I don't find maps for direct injection installs to be near enough correct either...

Simon

[LPGC]

Is this 4.6 Beemer a Valvetronic model (likely it is)?
If not, then it will be an easy conversion and a wide range of systems would give good results.
If so, then I would be very careful which installer you have convert it. If you convert a Valvetronic engine with BRC, then if there is a bit of an issue, don't expect the installer to know how to sort it (the installer will have uploaded a calibration file that he was sent, will very likely have little skill at manually adjusting settings).

Simon

I'm not sure where you get this idea from. BRC does not supply programs/maps for all installations. You cannot download maps from their website and they do not come preprogrammed for the car in the kit. All usual installations require programming from scratch or loading a map from our own previously converted car database with the same engine etc and then fine tuning. This only works if the firmware on the previous installation is the same as the new one, if too old, it will tell you that you can't upload an older version than in the new ECU.
We have converted hundreds of cars with BRC equipment and have only used BRC supplied maps for direct injection systems. These have been endurance tested by BRC and all the parameters are preset but still have to be fine tuned to the vehicle.
They used to have a preset ECU for Transits on Powershift but again, that was a very limited application.

Some installers are better than others regardless of what equipment they fit and I'm sure that your impression may well fit a BRC installer somewhere.

Hello! Thanks for reading my 6 week old posts....

This subject must interest you,? Would that be because BRC was mentioned and you like to fit BRC? In which case, fine, but still why an interest here? You are free to fit any system, would not turn a customer down who wanted a different system fitting... you see the big picture like me eh?

Since you've taken exception to what I said I'm sure you're one of the better installers that knows how to set systems up from scratch. You mentioned 'for all installations' and I agree, but isn't it the case that in many of these exceptions, maps are entered for one particular model of vehicle (which may not be the vehicle the system is being fitted to) and then quite simply adapted to suit the vehicle being converted... Which then might prompt the question... has the installer simply adjusted a few 'twiddle factors' for fueling, example the very simple at idle / off idle adjustment scroll bars, which are rather course and cannot be truly considered mapping, or has the installer indeed done a map from scratch (including correct methodologies etc).

I am rather sceptical of both BRC and Prins installers, maybe from far and wide but seemingly particularly in this area, because I have never seen a decent job of mapping from such installers on any system except BRC and Prins. Begging the question why, and it seems to me the answer is in my original comment.

A particular shortfall from BRC installers seems to be disregarding the ratio (multiplier) of Pinj versus Ging. But when you have a system that shows Pinj with appropriate DC but only shows DC for Ginj (not Ginj itself) this isn't surprising. Half the drive ability issues I sort on BRC systems are due to the installer seemingly expecting the impossible from gas injectors, or maybe not expecting any effect at all from low Ginj duration. Should have fitted smaller nozzled injectors, shame you can't turn down reducer pressure....

I don't find maps for direct injection installs to be near enough correct either...

Simon