V10 conversions

[LPGC]

Had many similar discussions with customers in the past, this one more recent...

How much to convert a motorhome with the Ford V10? So you advise the price will depend on how many tanks are fitted, and where they are fitted, what shape the motorhome is (those with the bonnet at the front, engine half inside and half under the bonnet, are more time consuming to convert than those with a flat front and engine access panel). You can't really advise tank(s) or capacity(s) until you've been given some measurements or seen the vehicle, as motorhomes vary so much... but you can give worst and best case scenario figures and guestimate capacities based on what you've been told until the customer gets back to you with measurements.

The customer is obviously going to phone around for various quotes and advice. Some customers don't want to know about which bits you would use to convert the engine, some are interested to varying degrees. Knowing full well the customer is going to get different advice from people he phones you might spell out the different routes such as fitting 2x 6cyl systems / fitting a single 10 cylinder system. With this customer we briefly discussed not really specific brands but the pros and cons of 2x 6 cyl systems compared to the pros and cons of fitting a single 10 cyl system.

'My advice', I said, 'Would be to fit 2 x 6 cylinder systems on a V10. There are a few makes of V10 systems on the market - Two of which for all intents and purposes use their own brand injectors, sensors and reducer / Another would be capable of working with a wide range of injectors / reducers but is only usually sold as a package with it's own branded injectors and reducer. Suppliers don't always keep many V10 systems in stock, so if there were a problem in future with a V10 ECU there might be a wait until the supplier gets another. V10 systems haven't come on as much over the years as other systems, some are adapted 8 cylinder systems, some are not truly sequential. Technology filters down from systems that support up to 8 cylinders to 10 cyl systems.'

The customer phones me back later and says 'I've just spoken to a few other installers and the consensus seems to be to fit a single 10 cylinder system, they say that if we fit 2x 6 cylinder systems the engine will run out of balance, after all you could have 5 cylinders on LPG and 5 on petrol and that wouldn't be balanced would it? And anyway, 2x 6cyl systems would be wrong because each would be running 5 cylinders not 6...'

I reckon most of those other installers he spoke to fit Prins or BRC. We wouldn't expect such installers to recommend anything other than one such ECU, or for alternative options to immediately spring to their minds, or for them to be overly familiar with other options. If true then of course such advice was given in biased ignorance.

In the end I told the customer - I had converted a great many V10 RVs all very successfully, years ago (when ECUs were expensive) I would have advised a single V10 ECU and the standard bits that unavoidably (for better or worse) came with it, but over more recent years it has seemed a better idea to fit 2x 6cyl systems (choose your own bits i.e. injectors / reducer / reducers plural perhaps even better). Claims of 'engine being unbalanced' totally unfounded. If he wanted only one changeover switch on the dash (I would prefer one for each side of the engine but each to their own) that this could easily be accomplished and some 6 cyl systems allow a coms link between 2ECUs for this purpose.. I wold prefer 2 switches, a gauge for each tank and the ability to still run at least half on LPG in the unlikely event of a problem on LPG regards one half of the engine.

So, yes, no problem fitting 1x 10cyl ECU if that's what he wanted, just that in best faith I would advise 2x 6cyl systems for the same price, choosing my own supporting components. Not expecting another ring-back because the customer seems to have taken in the incorrect 'engine unbalance' point from another installer. Remains to be seen if that system would be near as good from a technical perspective.

Wonder how installers advising 1x10cyl ECU would convert a V12

Any comments from informed installers?

Simon

[Bailes1992]

Out of curiosity.
If you use two ECU's do you run one bank from one ECU and another bank from the other or do you do them in another order?

[LPGC]

Out of curiosity.
If you use two ECU's do you run one bank from one ECU and another bank from the other or do you do them in another order?

ECU per bank.

But if the ECUs are truly sequential (and follow the petrol system fueling strategy completely), and if all injectors were fed from a common reducer (or reducers with outlets Y'd together) then it really wouldn't matter which cylinders were connected to which ECU... The ECUs I would fit would be truly sequential, still makes more sense to do an ECU per bank though.

Simon

[classicswede]

I know 1 installer who uses a 8 cylinder kit and runs 8 cylinders on LPG and 2 on petrol! No balance problems there

[E46CoupeM3]

IIRC the 850 CSI had 2 of 6 cylinder petrol systems from the factory.
You even "stomp" pedal test 5 times for one ECU and 6 for the other to read flash codes. Only a temp sensor and a throttle pot in common between them.
1 ECU per bank from the factory.

[LPGC]

I know 1 installer who uses a 8 cylinder kit and runs 8 cylinders on LPG and 2 on petrol! No balance problems there

Does he tell the customer what's happening? I suppose there will be plenty installers that would fit certain systems where they can get away with running 1 inj per channel on 6 channels and 2 injectors per channel on 2 channels.. I bet you'd agree with me though... Long time no chat, how's you Dai?

I reckon the 2 BRC systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate.

Simon

[classicswede]

Not been on here for a while. LPG side of things have been slow but selling more and more upgrade parts these days.

[E46CoupeM3]

I reckon the 2 BRC systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate.

I don't think you read my post properly
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly

[LPGC]

I reckon the 2 BRC systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate.

I don't think you read my post properly
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly

You're right! Having known that my reply would have read like this....
"I reckon the 2 systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate."
You're of course correct to point that out, makes little difference to my point though.

Simon

[E46CoupeM3]

I reckon the 2 BRC systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate.

I don't think you read my post properly
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly

You're right! Having known that my reply would have read like this....
"I reckon the 2 systems would have been mixer systems on the BMW850, E46? That's not really the same thing mate."
You're of course correct to point that out, makes little difference to my point though.

Simon

You were saying using 2 separate GAS systems on vehicles, one system per bank, didn't cause problems and I pointed out that the 850 shipped with two separate PETROL FUEL INJECTION SYSTEMS when built, standard, brand new, one system per bank.

IIRC the 850 CSI had 2 of 6 cylinder petrol systems from the factory.
You even "stomp" pedal test 5 times for one ECU and 6 for the other to read flash codes. Only a temp sensor and a throttle pot in common between them.
1 ECU per bank from the factory.

The point being that is a car can be shipped with two independent petrol EFI systems, one per bank when new. without problems, that there is no reason two separate LPG systems would cause problems.

[LPGC]

E46...

No mate, I wasn't missing the point.

I have owned several BMW750 V12s and am very well aware of how their fueling and ignition systems work. What you are talking about regards the 850 (like the 750) is a bit of an oddball design, ultimately an old older design.

The Ford Triton is a much fussier engine compared to the older V12. You could not fit one single point system or any number of single point systems on a Triton V10 without going to lengths to prevent limp home mode activation.

In contrast, the V12 lends itself well to single point systems, the only reason 2 single point systems will have been fitted is because this engine has 2 separate throttle bodies (each with it's own TPS) and 2 separate inlet manifolds (each with own load which can slightly differ from other manifold load). The twin manifold twin throttle body design is the oddball bit regards BMW V12, and that is the only reason your 850 had 2 LPG ECUs. Jags / Daimlers may similarly have twin throttle bodies on separate manifolds, but they are cable operated (so at least in theory always in sync) and have balance pipes between manifolds, and they don't have complicated traction control either (incidentally, a 3rd petrol ECU controlled the throttle bodies, fuel shutoff on return to idle, cruise control and traction control on the old Beemers).

In short, your BMW850 had one LPG ECU per throttle body TPS. You are talking more regards a system like this http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php ... &hilit=v12. The Triton V10 has one throttle body and one TPS. In this respect, your point might therefore lend more support to the one ECU method. But that sort of thinking would be setting off on the wrong foot anyway, as any single point system is the wrong methodology for the more modern V10.. Different technologies, comparing apples and oranges, etc....

Simon

[E46CoupeM3]

I never mentioned gas on the 850 at all. The whole point being, as said, if two separate petrol EFI systems don't cause problems there is no reason two separate GAS systems should (if set up correctly of course)

[LPGC]

Ahh I see! Bloody hell E46, there have been a great many cars using more than one ECU to control the engine, fueling and ignition often split .BMW engineers at the time simply used 2 x 6 cyl ECUs to control each half of the V12 with separate fueling, dizzy, even fuel pump, map and air charge temp sensors. You do have a point in that it doesn't matter how many ECUs are involved, but really that might qualify as a given - computers can multitask, modern engine ECUs can run multiple banks of cylinders with separate fueling, my laptop can do many things at the same time too. Most modern petrol ECUs would have easily enough power to control a fair few engines and play space invaders at the same time - but all of these things might be considered a bit off the point here. Your conclusion is correct though, if under-stated. 2 Truly sequential ECUs can give better results than one not truly sequential ECU. Particularly if you can fit whatever supporting components you like to suit the V10 but would probably fit the supporting components that came in the boxed kit with a V10 system.

Simon