The death knell for Diesel

[SnoozyBMW]

Will LPG and hybrid drivers be able to laugh at the diesel brigade?!

https://home.bt.com/lifestyle/motoring/ ... 3978817654

[marcos]

I for one can't wait to see the back of the filthy cancer-mobiles!

LPG = all the economy of an oil burner without the noise and the stink

[Bailes1992]

I don't think diesels are going anywhere personally.
I think older diesels however will be priced off the road.
Diesel technology will keep getting more and more advanced and even more complicated for those high mileage drivers who see diesel as the only option.

I own a new Euro 6 diesel Focus and there's no smoke, no smells and very little clatter (more clatter on my neighbours 1.0 Ecoboost Focus). It pulls hard and smooth from 1500rpm to 5000rpm.
When I got it I stuck my head down by the exhaust (I'm a bit odd lole that) and it just smelled and felt like hot air.

[Gilbertd]

I don't think diesels are going anywhere personally.

I suspect you are in the minority then. I fully expect a fairly hefty increase in road fuel duty on diesel in the next budget to negate the economy of a diesel. No matter how you do it, while the particulates are being caught by the DPF, then it's going to be clean, but it has to empty out sooner or later and that's when the rubbish is released.

[rich r]

I'll carry on running my 25 year old diesel 4x4 on waste veg oil until it won't pass an MOT any more. It's not going to last forever, but it's pretty cheap to run and produces less in the way of particulates than running on mineral diesel. And the exhaust smells of chips

But I do concede that its days are numbered as it's not very clean when you compare it with LPG or a modern petrol engine.

[rossko]

I fully expect a fairly hefty increase in road fuel duty on diesel in the next budget to negate the economy of a diesel.

I agree. There will be cries of "unfair!", so of course in following years there will be near equivalent wallops for petrol (and gaseous fuels) ...
The war of words is on fossil fuels in general, the practical implementation is carried out by revenue raisers. There aren't many options for government - ban it or tax it.

I'm waiting to see how electric vehicles will be targeted .... non-emissions based taxes ("congestion", "road tolls" etc.) are a cert. Since most electricity is fossil fuel based, there ought to be charges for that ... but power bills are political dynamite. It may be possible to introduce a "road fuel duty" surcharge rate for vehicle charging.

[SnoozyBMW]

I don't think diesels are going anywhere personally.

Typical head in the sand approach of diesel driver. The garage sale forecourts are being flooded with diesels. Increasing supply. As the media presents the concerns over tax increase on diesel there is falling demand. Excess supply and waning demand means falling diesel car prices.

Maybe LPG and electric cars will appreciate in value some what?

[scottyf]

I had both engine types. Prefer petrol's. Don't really care honestly about what it spits out the back.
When you go to places like India and China for your job you realise how small the UK is compared to those polluting giants.

I use lpg because its cheap. Meaning I can afford more things month to month for myself. Fun things.
Not because its causes less pollution. Sure its a bonus but its not the main reason why.

I used an electric bike for three years when my commute was only 10 miles and cycled. I saved loads.
In fact if more people did this then we'd all be healthier, fitter and more eco friendly. But it can be a nightmare in the weather.

A redesign of small tiny cars with small electric motors and larger Lipo batteries keeping weight down is the only way to make an electric vehicle viable.
Car's are too big and too heavy currently to mean they viable.

[Gilbertd]

There is an upside to falling prices of diesel cars. I sold a fairly doggy Citroen C5 diesel on behalf of a mate a few months ago and it was bought by a guy from Lithuania. He reckoned it was worth well over 2 grand if dismantled and sold as spares. We can send all of them over there.......

[marcos]

Yep I was in the Lithuania recently on a bicycle tour. The air is thick with the stench of golf TDIs!


Interesting the myth of the clean diesel is still being perpetuated (aka the EURO 6). Worth remembering
EURO 5 was meant to fix all diesel's pollution issues - what a cruel joke that turned out to be.

Meanwhile evidence is emerging that Euro 6 diesels are also a massive fail

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/05/2 ... ove-limit/

[Gilbertd]

What is it with the VW/Audi TDi engines anyway? I ride a motorcycle and when sitting in traffic with the fumes coming up inside my helmet, I know I am sitting behind one without even looking at what car it is. Very distinctive and disgusting.

[Bailes1992]

I suspect you are in the minority then. I fully expect a fairly hefty increase in road fuel duty on diesel in the next budget to negate the economy of a diesel. No matter how you do it, while the particulates are being caught by the DPF, then it's going to be clean, but it has to empty out sooner or later and that's when the rubbish is released.

Aren't nearly all cars on the road currently diesels? So who is the minority? I think people with 'alternative fueled' vehicles are the minority. And don't think I'm against LPG. I quite like it and I would like an LPG powered car but the time has yet to come. In fact I just converted a cheap ALDI generator that my Father bought to run off a gas bottle using a mixer plate.

I do 20-30k per year and the majority of that is motorway mileage. My DPF regens always take place on the motorway where I'm surrounded by greenery and cows. Surely that's the best compromise?
Consider the extra CO2 which a petrol engined car of the similar power and torque would leave behind and I am better off with the diesel? All the nasty particulates get trapped when I'm in towns and citys and then get released into the atmosphere where the surrounding trees and grass help to clean the air.
I just think that lots of people don't pick the right fuel for the job. My Missus does 6 miles a day so she gets a little 1400cc Citreon, I would never think of getting her a diesel.

Typical head in the sand approach of diesel driver. The garage sale forecourts are being flooded with diesels. Increasing supply. As the media presents the concerns over tax increase on diesel there is falling demand. Excess supply and waning demand means falling diesel car prices.

No head in the sand. Something has to be done, I agree. Older diesels are a nightmare in terms of NOX and Particulates. Not that I care what comes out the arse end of my car, my previous Mondeo had it's EGR blanked off and the CAT removed as it improved my average economy by 12mpg and improved drivability no end. Go and drive a new Euro 6 diesel and they are very impressive. My exhaust tip always stays clean, not even a light dusting of soot and there is no smoke or nasty smells. It's quieter than the petrol equivalent and significantly better on fuel.

People like diesels, and technology will just continue to improve. I think it will go down the road of biodiesel and possibly gas fumigation. In fact Volvo trucks have already started fitting what they call 'MethaneDiesel' engines to a lot of new trucks which can run on 90% gas!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxW2nTZPXx8

If I decide to keep my Focus when it hits 3 years old then I will be getting it fitted with an LPG fumigation system of sorts. Unsure whether to use a system that reduces the rail pressure and replaces the missing diesel with LPG or just to add a little LPG for some extra go and also without reducing the atomization properties of the injector.
I was planning on doing it to my Mondeo but it was never convenient for me to book it in anywhere for it to be done. Lucky really as I had to get rid of it in January or face sticking a new engine in it after someone cross threaded 3 of the bolts holding the flywheel to the crank.

Yep I was in the Lithuania recently on a bicycle tour. The air is thick with the stench of golf TDIs!


Interesting the myth of the clean diesel is still being perpetuated (aka the EURO 6). Worth remembering
EURO 5 was meant to fix all diesel's pollution issues - what a cruel joke that turned out to be.

Meanwhile evidence is emerging that Euro 6 diesels are also a massive fail

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/05/2 ... ove-limit/

This proves my point above. If Euro 6 doesn't work there will be a Euro 7. And Euro 6 is still 49% better than Euro 5 which is a huge improvement.
Diesels will just continually improve until hydrogen technology (the only real alternative to fossil/combustible fuels) improves somewhat.

[Gilbertd]

Aren't nearly all cars on the road currently diesels? So who is the minority?

I was referring to your comment that diesels aren't going anywhere. I think the majority accept that they won't be around for much longer as the increased duty on fuel and congestion charging will make them uneconomical to run.

My DPF regens always take place on the motorway where I'm surrounded by greenery and cows. Surely that's the best compromise?

Is it? Dumping carcinogenic particulates all over the growing crops that we end up eating?

Consider the extra CO2 which a petrol engined car of the similar power and torque would leave behind and I am better off with the diesel?

This is the bit that comes under the heading of 'knee jerk reactions'. First of all it was lead in petrol, so that was removed but had to be replaced with other compounds that increased the Nox levels, so, to clean those up, catalytic converters were introduced to convert the toxins into nice harmless CO2. Then suddenly, CO2 is the bad boy so the 'drive to diesel' started to reduce CO2 levels and all was sweetness and light for a little while. Then it was realised that the non-soluble, cancer causing, particulates are far worse than the lead and the CO2. Greenery converts CO2 into Oxygen but the particulates are there for ever. Now we are being encouraged to ditch diesel in favour of petrol cars as the lasting effects are far less (see http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=13757).

This proves my point above. If Euro 6 doesn't work there will be a Euro 7. And Euro 6 is still 49% better than Euro 5 which is a huge improvement.
Diesels will just continually improve until hydrogen technology (the only real alternative to fossil/combustible fuels) improves somewhat.

But if the Euro 7 spec is written in the same way as Euro 4, 5 and 6, it will still be possible to meet it in a lab but not in the real world. Either that or it will be so difficult to make a diesel capable of meeting the spec, manufacturers will just, hopefully, give up developing diesels.

[scottyf]

The real issue is that we should probably get from one place to another by means of mass transport or cycling. Or walk etc.. etc...

But that's a utopia that will just never happen I guess.

Oh and the mass transport would be electric powered. Which that electric would be generated by renewable resources. Like the sun / Wind and tidal.

Its a nice utopia in my head.

[marcos]

Sounds like a nice utopia to me too.


In the meantime the least we can do is start getting rid of the diesel cars and run taxis and buses on clean LPG or CNG instead of stubbornly sticking with carcinogenic diesel. At least then the people who do walk and cycle wont get poisoned as they do so!

[scottyf]

A lot of the Taxi's around brum are LPG.
Guess they figure its actually cheaper to run them than diesels...

Which they are. Even my @!## one equals a little under 70 mpg for the diesel equivalent at cost.
And that's an average. Not the best figures I've pulled. (mainly because LPG here is 43p).

[Brian_H]

A lot of the Taxi's around brum are LPG.
Guess they figure its actually cheaper to run them than diesels...

Which they are. Even my @!## one equals a little under 70 mpg for the diesel equivalent at cost.
And that's an average. Not the best figures I've pulled. (mainly because LPG here is 43p).

Actually theres a general incentive to do with the air quality driving that, with support of the council there. Mainly aimed at their Taxi fleet, since if you target those doing the most miles it will have the most positive effect. Plus the average taxi driver doesn't mind filling up on a bit of wasteground in the rain if its saving/making them money in the process vs filling up with diesel on a forecourt. Those kind of depots only exist when they are shifting enough to make a profit as they are not selling anything else usually.

Theres a bit of info on here - more is about if your interested but you can look into that if you want!

http://autogaslimited.co.uk/news/will-b ... -the-rank/

And lets face it if Diesels go wrong they can quite easily cost the price of a conversion to put right, whereas with the right knowledge on an autogas system you can at least fix it (even if the front end kit fails completely you can still reuse the tank etc keeping the cost down).

[Bailes1992]

I've always justified the repair costs of a diesel by the fuel a save.
Luckily other than one DMF replacement I've never had any massive bills. Biggest bill I had was £750 for 4 new tyres, full service, aircon regas, wheel alignment, a can if BG244 and an MOT. That would have cost me the same if it was a petrol model.

I suppose the best compromise is an standard port injection petrol with LPG. Unfortunatley petrols are going the same way diesels did with expensive high pressure pumps, piezo injectors, EGR, VNT Turbos etc etc. I say unfortunatley as you could justify the expense of a petrol when you weighed up the repair bills of a diesel, you can't any more.
Although it will certainly be interesting to see where the LPG industry goes. Especially with direct liquid injection systems from companies's like Prins.

[scottyf]

Thing is with those forecourts you don't even have to get out the car.
They just do it all for you. Like its the 1950's (I presume I'm actually only 30). You just sit in the car. Wait for it fill up and then pay the man.

Only downside is most deal in just cash. Which usually means I need to have money just on me.

Interesting read on the lpg taxis round Birmingham. might actually be why its so cheap round here.
Heck doesn't matter that my system is not very efficient when its that cheap.

[Gilbertd]

Thing is with those forecourts you don't even have to get out the car.
They just do it all for you. Like its the 1950's (I presume I'm actually only 30). You just sit in the car. Wait for it fill up and then pay the man.

As recently as the 1970's actually. I wanted a job to fill in the gap between leaving school and starting an apprenticeship so got a job as a forecourt attendant (unlike the yoof of today who will do nothing and expect to be supported by their parents). One of the biggest garages in the area and one of the first to go self service, they needed someone short term until the forecourt was redeveloped. Working there for 3 months suited them and me and filled gaps for both of us. Learnt a lot too, like you have to have the nozzle held at exactly the same angle as the rear window when filling a Morris 1100 or you spent the rest of the day walking around in soggy trousers as it would spit it all back out at you!