And so it begins ....

[mondeoman]

Now is the time that an industry association would, were it worth it's salt, be lobbying Government to extol the virtues of LPG. Of course it should have been done prior to 2001 when the drive diesel incentives were initiated.

That lobbying should take the form of campaigning to maintain or even increase the current offset between excise duty on the sale of LPG for use as road fuel, a guarantee of the rolling ten year offset, and for a fairer VED rate for LPG converted vehicles. Currently my CRV at 216g/km is band K and pays 280 year as an alternative fuel vehicle but if it's actual CO2 emissions were used it would come down to band H, at £205. The £10 reduction is just not realistic.

At the same time they should be releasing regular press releases detailing that lobbying, making it harder for Government to ignore them and reminding the public of the benefits ....

Cheap and plentiful
Environmentally friendly
Safe
Available for almost all petrol powered cars currently on UK roads.

[LPGC]

Now is the time that an industry association would, were it worth it's salt, be lobbying Government to extol the virtues of LPG

You mean like... promoting the LPG vehicle conversion industry and not telling people (that might otherwise convert to LPG) that their vehicle might spontaneously explode and they might not get insurance if work isn't carried out by one of their members (even though LPG is inherently safe)?

Simon

[rossko]

See "news" items here
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/
January's in particular (sic)
and
http://www.uklpg.org/advice-and-information/news-room/
April's this time

Right now is not quite the time to lobby government; they are a bit preoccupied and might be all different next week.

[LPGC]

Would agree the timing would be wrong now.. But then when timing would have been right, like when fuel prices went through the roof and when other reports have stated diesel fumes are damaging etc, nothing happened then either, at least nothing the general public would be aware of? Public probably need to be made aware for lobbying to be effective, a trade body could seize the moment at such times - an advert could include words about damaging diesel emissions, the savings and benefits of LPG vehicles, and governments refusal to acknowledge or act in the face of evidence and lobbying.

As you've pointed out before, the trade body is concerned with LPG and largely the supply chain, vehicle LPG conversions are just a small part of their picture. UKLPGs Mike said they don't even wish to run the safety scheme concerning LPG conversion of vehicles, loose quote 'but will continue to do so unless something better comes along'... Politicians are scrambling about at the moment but at this this time of year I wonder if UKLPG are more concerned with LPG vehicles and diesel emissions or gas bottles for patio heaters....

I wonder if Calor, who provide LPG to Shell, have considered advertising LPG as a road fuel, their chance to compete with petrol/diesel firms for a bigger slice of the massive road fuel market. Wonder if Shell made Calor agree not to do that.. Conspiracy theory!

Simon

[rossko]

From January 2015
http://autogaslimited.co.uk/wp-content/ ... eprint.pdf
See page 34 for example, parliamentary presentation Dec 2014.
See contributors on last page (includes Calor, Shell)
Sorry if last December did not suit you.

Petroleum industry figures
http://www.ukpia.com/docs/default-sourc ... f?sfvrsn=0
UK LPG consumption 5 megatonnes
UK Autogas consumption 90 kilotonnes, representing 2%, a massive market indeed.

Coming soon: bio-propane, a renewable energy source that drops straight into an existing delivery infrastructure (Autogas) and consumer market (converted cars)
http://www.lpgasmagazine.co.uk/biopropa ... t-in-2016/
Case made to DfT, January 2015
http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http:// ... _Z_TtaRCWg

The public are not driven by "damaging diesel emissions". This is already well known, but the majority of the buying public ... still choose diesel. Because of the costings. The costings are the way they are because government incentives (fuel duty etc.) have sought low CO2.
This public attitude will not be changed by some body with a clear vested interest repeating the same tired message.

If the powers that be change the costings, the public will buy the flavour of the month. That's the area of fuel duties, controlled by parliament; and roads access/charging, controlled by local powers e.g. city councils. These people are taking an interest in "damaging diesel emissions" (see Paris mentioned earlier), and are being lobbied to leverage that interest in favour of Autogas.
Preach not to the convertee, their wallet will lead them.

[Bailes1992]

My Mondeo 1.8TDCi had to go after the clutch failed and it was found that whoever done the previous DMF replacement cross threaded 3 bolts meaning the car was going to need a new crank.

I bought a 2015 Ford Focus 1.5TDCi which is a Euro 6 engine and I'm actually really impressed with how clean it is!
I never see any smoke, there's never any soot on the boot or the exhaust tip and there is no diesel smell from the exhaust either. I've stuck my head by the exhaust and it's just like warm air.
It's returning 60mpg+ too.
I wanted a brand new car and doing 20k-30k per year it was a no brainier to buy a diesel. I would have bought a 1.0 Ecoboost, in fact that's what I wanted but stories of sub 30mpg put me off and with it being under warranty I couldn't risk getting it converted to LPG for at least 3 years.

I will however be converting the Focus to run on an LPG blend once it's out of warranty. Wanted to get my previous Mondeo done but (luckily) it was never convenient for me to do it.

I don't think getting rid of diesels altogether is the answer. For high mileage drivers like me it makes sense and the new Euro 6 engines seem so clean and quiet I can't see them going anywhere for a long time yet. I think however older diesels will simply be priced off the road.

Something that does concern me with diesel cars is diesel quality itself.
If I run this Focus on BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power I get 60-65mpg at motorway speeds and the DPF regens itself every 500-600miles. Running on bog standard diesel I get more like 50mpg and it regens every 300miles. I haven't even tried supermarket diesel! I'm too scared to.
I know Shell V-Power contains Gas to Liquids (GTLs) which is natural gas converted into liquid form and blended into the diesel. The GTL burns much cleaner and more efficiently than the diesel meaning less soot, less DPF regens, better economy, better running and more power!

[Gilbertd]

If I run this Focus on BP Ultimate or Shell V-Power I get 60-65mpg at motorway speeds and the DPF regens itself every 500-600miles. Running on bog standard diesel I get more like 50mpg and it regens every 300miles.

and that's when they pollute. The way the standards are written means that they concentrate on urban use so instead of spitting the soot out in the cities, they spit is out in the countryside instead. Unless they never go out in the countryside when they store it up until they can hold no more and spit it out anyway (or just clog the DPF and cost the owner £1k+ to replace it). All the Euro 6 ones are doing is making a better job of filtering the exhaust but they can only hold onto it for so long.

Hopefully the Government will take action by upping the duty on diesel so the extra miles per gallon you get are negated by the increased cost of the fuel.

[mondeoman]

It's returning 60mpg+ too.

I'd take it back and complain, ford quote an average consumption of 74! actually, unless you do a lot of urban driving or thrash the pants off it that isn't very impressive. My ten year old 4x4 returns the equivalent of 55mpg running a 2 litre petrol engine on LPG, and doesn't produce the particulates or NO2 that cause so much air pollution.

Figures issued by manufacturers make diesel engines look much better than they often turn out to be.

[Bailes1992]

It's returning 60mpg+ too.

I'd take it back and complain, ford quote an average consumption of 74! actually, unless you do a lot of urban driving or thrash the pants off it that isn't very impressive. My ten year old 4x4 returns the equivalent of 55mpg running a 2 litre petrol engine on LPG, and doesn't produce the particulates or NO2 that cause so much air pollution.

Figures issued by manufacturers make diesel engines look much better than they often turn out to be.

I like the amount of low down grunt you get from a diesel as it suits my kind of driving. Even my small short stroked 1.5TDCi pulls hard low down. I would need something with another 1.5litres and 2 cylinders more to get the sort of low down grunt I get from this in a petrol engined N/A car.
I actually wanted to buy a 1.0 Ecoboost. I was planning to keep it standard for 3 years and once it was out of warrenty get it upto around 180bhp (Intercooler, SportsCAT, induction kit and a Stage 2 remap) and then get it LPG converted. My neighbor has one and she is struggling to get 35mpg out of hers and it's doing around 50 miles a day, most of that on the motorway. I can't afford to run a car that does such low MPG's. It's also worth saying that side by side my diesel is actually quieter than her little ecoboost!

I'm really surprised how clean my little 1.5TDCi is. I caught it doing a regen last week and there was still nothing coming out of the exhaust other than hot hair. Even when I put my hand by the exhaust for a bit it was totally clean when removed.
I personally live in the past and still see diesels as big dirty, noisy, smelly things but I think times have changed. Certainly feels that way with my Focus.

[LPGC]

That a performance comparison between a 1.5 turbo diesel and a 1.0 litre turbo petrol is possible is perhaps telling! For the same running cost, you're always going to get better performance with a petrol converted to LPG than with a diesel.

My mate has an Ecoboost, he reckons it does about 50mpg and he only does short journeys..

I take both manufacturers and owners claimed mpg's with a pinch of salt. In the case of owners it's amazing how pessimistic or optimistic guestimated mpg's sometimes are, and many seem ready to quote figures even if they haven't bothered to do the maths.

Simon

[rich r]

We once had a Fiesta 1.0 EcoBoost as a hire car, and despite driving up and down the hills of north Devon for four days, I only had to put in about £20 of petrol before taking it back. We worked out that it was doing an average of 55mpg. I imagine if we'd driven in a more fuel concious manner on flat roads it could well have done over 70mpg.

[Brian_H]

Really thats the best way to tell for yourself - either hire one, or get a test drive on one if your serious about buying it and try it on a typical day and see what you get.

[Bailes1992]

Unfortunately I had to buy short notice which is why I played it safe with the Focus. If I had time to sit online for hours and hours on car configurators and then could wait another 6-8 weeks for delivery I certainly would have ended up with something else. Probably a Volvo with a D3/D4 engine.
Another thing I had to take into consideration was the fact next year the other half and I were planning on buying a caravan. I'm not sure I feel comfortable towing with a 3 cylinder engine. I've towed short distances with lots of different configurations of trailer and car and generally found the best engines for lugging loads were those with 5 cylinders or more. I tend to find 4 cylinder engines regardless of how much torque or BHP they have harder to manage when towing. They seem very lazy. I've not tried a 3 cylinder engine though, not sure I want to!
I've always put the above down to the fact an engine with 5 cylinders or more has an overlap between combustion strokes, therefore there is a combustion stroke happening at all times. Where as a 4 cylinder engine there is one after another. I may however be talking totally out of my arse and it's just been a complete coincidence.

Unsure how long I will keep this Focus for. I have had it 11 weeks now and Ford have had it for 11 days for 13 faults already and is going back to Ford for a full bare metal respray next week because the paintwork is so bad on it.
If Ford do correct all the faults with it though there is no reason why I won't have it for 10 years so I will be getting an LPG fumigation install not just to save costs but to give me some more power also!

[scottyf]

Thing is doesn't matter how effcient an engine can be. Physics can not be bent.
Petrol and diesel have a finite amount of energy in each drop.

Any engine combustion engine designed is to squueze out as much power from that drop of fuel as possible.

A car travelling at 70mph with a 1.0l engine or a 3.0l engine still needs to overcome drag.
The only way then an engine can get better mpg as such is by reducing losses.

Which is why a lot of people find these tiny little engines although frugal round town rarely get the quoted mpg figures.
But they still excel at what they deliver.

I'm happy with my 1.8 petrol engine getting cheaper than diesel running costs
I now look at it price per mile rather than MPG. as its now kind of meaning less as different fuels costs various amounts.

So now my car does each mile for 8.5p on average.
Before it was costing me 14p

That's quite a saving. However on cars that doe 60mpg on petrol. Then the savings kind of dwindle on having a conversion as they are already frugal.

[Gilbertd]

I had a boss once who was divorced, lived on his own, kids had grown up and left home and someone asked him why he felt the need to drive around in such a big car. He'd run a couple of big V8 Rovers and then moved onto Jags. His reply was that he had a caravan and nothing wound him up more than being stuck behind someone towing a small 3 bed detached behind a 1.0 litre car. He had no intention of being the one that others complained about so, despite the cost of fuel, he would continue to drive something that was as quick off the mark as everything else, even when he did have his caravan on the back.

I have very little experience of these modern small engined cars but suspect the power characteristics are much like my motorcycle. It may have 100 bhp from a 600cc engine, but you wouldn't want to try and tow anything behind it. The economy on these modern eco cars is as much down to light weight and low drag than anything else and hooking a caravan to the back is going to destroy both of those.

[kbs]

Increasing efficency by reducing Engine drag seems to be the reason for modern engines having less cylinders (see the truck world) and smaller bearing faces.

Perhaps rebuildable, solid engines have now been traded for disposible, low cylinder count, small bearinged turbo units that cant cope with abuse/towing/'normal' mileages. Even if carefully used.

I don't suppose many buyers of new cars will be interested in the amount of life left after 5 years but it seems likley many micro engined models will require a replacement engine much sooner than we have been used to. I'm expecting to find 'Smart Car' type of problems where the worn out engine is often too far gone for rebuilding.

Scotty - thats a lot better pence/mile than I get, what engine do you have? What are you paying for LPG? what type of driving? (I can get under 11p if on a long motorway run with my Z18XE @ 55p/ltr)

[scottyf]

Scotty - thats a lot better pence/mile than I get, what engine do you have? What are you paying for LPG? what type of driving? (I can get under 11p if on a long motorway run with my Z18XE @ 55p/ltr)

That's 8.5p including petrol I put in too. It virtually switches over as soon as I start in summer. As soon as it reaches 50 degrees. I also put in quite a bit of antifreeze to help it all stop freezing up quickly.

My car is a bit of a frankensteins monster. Its original a 1.6 Twinspark Alfa 147.
I've fitted the 1.8 twin spark into it (After two bearing fails on two separate 1.6 engines).
It run's its original 1.6 ECU. The LPG system actually helps it run a bit richer than on its petrol counterpart as when you used to run at 80 mph low throttle I used to get a lambda error after a prolonged time as it tried to lean off the mixture too far on petrol. Doesn't do this on LPG now.

I do 20k a year and mostly its motorways. But the reason I get such low price per mile is that I am based in Birmingham. Where recently LPG is circa 45p.
I actually cringe a little at paying 60p per liter on forecourts now because its just so much more.
I also never worry about my lead foot. I actually got 21 mpg lately from me booting it everywhere. Out a 1.8.

But I normally get between 26-29 mpg which is you exclude petrol is close to 7p a mile. 1p per mile accounts for petrol start ups. But I do motorway mostly. Its great. I've stopped spending about £60 a week on petrol to £35.

[Brian_H]

Increasing efficency by reducing Engine drag seems to be the reason for modern engines having less cylinders (see the truck world) and smaller bearing faces.

Perhaps rebuildable, solid engines have now been traded for disposible, low cylinder count, small bearinged turbo units that cant cope with abuse/towing/'normal' mileages. Even if carefully used.

I don't suppose many buyers of new cars will be interested in the amount of life left after 5 years but it seems likley many micro engined models will require a replacement engine much sooner than we have been used to. I'm expecting to find 'Smart Car' type of problems where the worn out engine is often too far gone for rebuilding.

They might be when they find noone wants to buy them though and they are saddled with a broken worthless car after 5 years is up when they are expecting to be able to sell it to put towards a new one..

[rossko]

No-one feels that way about fridges and washing machines.

Japan's home market already scraps 5 year old cars.

Older vehicles are heavily penalised by London's LEZ.

China is now the largest world manufacturer and home market, with different preconceptions.

Existing manufacturers may find themselves reduced to hardware suppliers, as software-centric self drive cars appear under "Google" branding etc.

Assemble the pieces into a picture

[Gilbertd]

Talking to someone at Tata, the current owners of Land Rover, who suggested I buy myself an Evoque. Told him that until they produce one with a V8 petrol engine, a separate chassis and the capability of towing a 3.5 tonne trailer, I'll stick with what I had thanks. He was saying that the lesser models are now regarded as white goods with a design, and expected, life of no more than 10 years. You only have to look at the likes of the Smart car engine which reaches the end of it's life after around 80,000 miles and parts can't be bought to rebuild it other than from aftermarket manufacturers. Things like sealed for life gearboxes and spark plugs that last for 60,000 miles are a clue to the way things are going. An engine is no longer something you strip and rebuild, but something that is replaced as a complete unit (which, in most cases, isn't economically viable).