KME safety valve

[carl0s]

Can somebody tell me the relevance and implications of this? How often is the safety valve likely to do anything (vent excess pressure I presume), and what's the difference of it going pre/post throttle (presume they mean MAF ?). I'm presuming safety valve is what we usually call a PRV, although I wonder what happens when the PRV vents into the manifold (when the vacuum / compensation is connected up normally) ?

"Hello Carl,
I know about differences into valvetronic engines.
I do not know how do you connect vaccum, but in valvetronic engines you have to active Valvetronic option and do not connect vacum to the reducer.
Because in KME reducers safty valve is integrated with vaccum nozzle the correct way is connect vacuum nozzle from reducer to air filter befor trottle (not after).
Only in this situation electronic device and mechanical parts thinking and working in the same way.

Btw: PPO is not needed for valvetronic engines. Better way is connect to OBD and use fuel trims for calibration.

Z poważaniem / Best regards,
Robert Szmajda"

[rossko]

This PRV purpose is to prevent the 'low pressure' side of the gas system bursting in the event of a failure - reducer, hoses, injector rails. It usually set at something like 4 bar.
It may well never lift in the life of vehicle. But it isn't that unlikely either - typically a coolant problem causing reducer icing will do it. Diaphragm/regulator duff are other causes in old age.

The effect if venting into manifold will be to stall the engine as it will be 'flooded'.

The installer needs to see that venting is to somewhere safe. That's easy enough for seperate PRVs, you can often just leave it open as most engine bays are open bottomed, else you need to route a pipe so that gas cannot enter boxes or eject onto hot manifolds etc. It's also common to plumb to the manifold, I guess the intention is to burn off the venting - but it usually stalls instead. Gas can then waft out of the intake, or get consumed when you next restart the engine (which is difficult, its flooded!).

I doubt you'd want to pipe to the underside when the pipe is common to vacuum reference, for fear of unexpected venturi effects at speed. So that does leave the intake tract.

[carl0s]

Ah, thanks. It's good to know it's not something likely to be operating on a daily basis then.
Good to know that the KME does have a PRV as well... even though you have no ability to separate it from the vacuum reference.
I'll leave it open to the engine bay like it is at the moment then, and leave it as a low-priority job to fix up.

[rossko]

Good to know that the KME does have a PRV as well...

Yup, I think we had a thread a while back involving puzzlement about where it was!

Thinking on the plumbing, it probably is a good idea to force a stall (and hence shutdown) as something has gone wrong after all. I do not think it is mandated though, its just as likely to die from injectors not opening etc.

[Tubbs]

If it's looking like it will blow off on top of an exhaust, then it's best practice to take it somewhere safely with a bit of pipe. Venting back to the manifold always struck me as a recipie for disaster tbh. Especially on a plastic manifold. Mind you odds are it would just stall.

[carl0s]

Yeah that's true. I did think about that. Right now I still have a hose hooked up to it anyway from when I had the vacuum lines connected.

[LPGC]

I have known PRV's to operate on Tomasetto Anarctic reducers, both for faults with the reducer itself causing over-pressure situations (so correct PRV operation) and faults with the PRV. When KME units fail it is usually more likely they deliver too low a pressure, never known a KME give an over-pressure situation but of curse that could happen

Where I have seen other installers have fitted reducers with PRV's, they are usually left open (not piped up) or are piped to vacuum - But I think where they're piped to vacuum this has more to do with some installers thinking the PRV is a second reducer vacuum connection (which of course some reducers have). Nevertheless, not a problem and debatable as to whether this is a good thing.

On that debate, I would say connecting PRV's to vacuum probably isn't a good thing. As Rosko has said, the most likely outcome if a PRV opens is that the engine will stall and when the engine stalls the gas will escape via the engine air intake anyway. In my view, better the engine doesn't stall at the same time as the driver might get a very strong small of gas - one of these is enough to cause the driver a problem and some alarm but both occurring at the same might be even more alarming...

I say, either leave the PRV open to the engine bay (where the bay doesn't have a sump type undertray) or run a pipe outside of the undertray. Many ECU's that are fitted in conjunction with reducers that have PRVs can be set up to pulse injectors to slowly reducer over-pressure situations anyway (though whether injectors would open with a 4 bar feed pressure is questionable).

Thinking laterally - Maybe PRV's on reducers aren't a good idea... Where reducers don't have a PRV the engine will either run rough on gas or fail to run on gas when a pipe blows off, in either case there isn't much opportunity for much gas to escape (pipe blows off, system switches to petrol, solenoids close). With a PRV, the PRV can dump enough excess pressure for pipes not to be blown off while the engine continues to run on LPG while the PRV is venting gas... PRVs fitted to reducers have relatively small diameter outlets and, like other PRV's, are self closing.. So there is a good probability the PRV will cycle venting only the excess pressure, not allowing pressure to fall enough to be below switch back to petrol and beep occurs... This has happened in my experience.

Funny idea not to be taken seriously In an open top sports car, connect PRV to a blow up doll stuffed below the passenger seat. If Ms Vinylfaps suddenly appears at the side of you when driving then you know she's arrived to tell you there is a problem with the reducer I think I'll get away with saying vinylflaps on this forum - but if moderators take issue I could replace that suggestion with a blow up kangaroo... 'Whatcha say Skippy? There's a problem with my reducer? Good boy Skippy, can you show me where reducer is?'

Simon

[carl0s]

lol....

[kbs]

Is this the type of inflatable doll specified in CoP11?

Do some members of the forum feel that a human doll is an un-necessary requirement simply specified because a UKLPG promoting installer has shares in Ms VinylFlaps?

Would non-UKLPG fans like to suggest a cheaper doll that I might be able to import directly from Poland?

Are there any other E67 approved dolls?

If Propane has a mild anethestic effect - does this reduce the sensation when 'using' the doll?

[LPGC]

Is this the type of inflatable doll specified in CoP11?

You might use that excuse when your wife finds it...

Do some members of the forum feel that a human doll is an un-necessary requirement simply specified because a UKLPG promoting installer has shares in Ms VinylFlaps?

Absolutely! From a safety standpoint, Skippy would achieve the same thing in a less obtrusive way... Skippy might be more readily accepted as part of a mandatory safety scheme, particularly by one half of the population...

Would non-UKLPG fans like to suggest a cheaper doll that I might be able to import directly from Poland?

Hmm your question could be interpreted in different ways.. It will be possible to obtain the same doll more cheaply from Polish suppliers but this is because some suppliers nip over to Poland in their vans and bring Vinylflaps over, dodging the VAT that other UK suppliers have to pay and in some cases without giving tech support (particularly important to DIYers). Or to answer the other interpretation, as long as a Vinylflaps is marked E67 it will meet both COP11 and BSEN..

Are there any other E67 approved dolls?

There will be but some of these might not be to all installers / customers taste. Not many would opt for Woolysheep, especially where the design doesn't have a PRV of it's own... Of course, Vinylfaps PRV is built into the left eye, too much pressure and it pops out.. Another inbuilt safety feature is that if you take reducer PRV pipe and connect to the wrong port on Vinylflaps (the vac port) right eye pops out..

If Propane has a mild anethestic effect - does this reduce the sensation when 'using' the doll?

You may need to run your own tests to confirm this. Of course, propane itself isn't poisonous but like any other gas can an asphyxiant when it displaces oxygen.. Apparently some people like this aspect, too...

[kbs]

Are spreader plates, cages or straps necessary when securing the doll?

Do some members of the forum feel that a professional installer may promote “Ms VinlyFlaps” above UKLPGs own “Widdicome2” model due to his (that installers) own special interest in the continued production of a favourite 'easy to use' model?

Do you recommend a valve luber/saver system?

I'm ready to buy but need to look around and get some prices, do you know what “Ms VinlyFlaps” is called in Italy? In Poland?

If I do import and have problems - could I post a video of the problem and ask you to confirm I'm doing everything correctly?

Thanks again

[LPGC]

Are spreader plates, cages or straps necessary when securing the doll?

I believe most models come supplied with spreader plates that secure the unit around the legs.. These can be used to secure the unit horizontally, inverted or vertically... very adaptable units!

Do some members of the forum feel that a professional installer may promote “Ms VinlyFlaps” above UKLPGs own “Widdicome2” model due to his (that installers) own special interest in the continued production of a favourite 'easy to use' model?

The ideal situation for many users will be to have a standard easy to use model and for specific applications the odd special interest unit.

Do you recommend a valve luber/saver system?

I believe KY make a suitable lubricant, less lubricant is required on models fitted with water injection. For really heavy use applications, special lubricants such as lithium based lubes can be used but not on units equipped with water injection. The good point is, suitable lubes can be bought from many garages and perhaps more surprisingly, even from pub toilets!

I'm ready to buy but need to look around and get some prices, do you know what “Ms VinlyFlaps” is called in Italy? In Poland

Certain Polish suppliers will probably be very familiar with all the various models. I believe this model is called Flapsvinylinsky in Poland and Vinylvanfriskyfrapz in Germany...

If I do import and have problems - could I post a video of the problem and ask you to confirm I'm doing everything correctly?

I don't offer that service, sorry. I do believe one supplier offers the service (info@autoga or something like).. but they need detailed video taken under specific conditions (oversteer)... You've got to get the a**e end right out in the video.

I'm wondering what would be funnier here... Edit my posts to read 'eh?' 'what are you talking about man?' or leave them as they stand



Simon

[kbs]

OK,

Product sourced from the former Soviet Block.

Known as the “Matroesjka” apparently she’s just a re-branded Ms Vinyl made in the same factory to the same high standards by the same engineers, (but without the
unsightly E mark). The materials used are identical, but the items sells at 1/5th of the UK price.

Delivery was going to be an issue, she was to be secured to a trucks axle but I was concerned the driver might find her (risking her arriving worn out, dirty or worse!).

I think the supplier has agreed (unsure due to language barrier) to inflate her with helium and write my address in a prominent place before releasing her into an Easterly wind.

I am little worried she may go adrift so could I ask members (especially those on the East coast) to watch out for her and post here if she floats by.

Next job – warn ATC, don’t want her to end up wrapped around a prop or swallowed by a turbine.

I’ve saved a fortune, if this works out, I’ll never buy LPG parts from a UK Supplier again!

[LPGC]

[carl0s]

This PRV purpose is to prevent the 'low pressure' side of the gas system bursting in the event of a failure - reducer, hoses, injector rails. It usually set at something like 4 bar.
It may well never lift in the life of vehicle. But it isn't that unlikely either - typically a coolant problem causing reducer icing will do it. Diaphragm/regulator duff are other causes in old age.

The effect if venting into manifold will be to stall the engine as it will be 'flooded'.

The installer needs to see that venting is to somewhere safe. That's easy enough for seperate PRVs, you can often just leave it open as most engine bays are open bottomed, else you need to route a pipe so that gas cannot enter boxes or eject onto hot manifolds etc. It's also common to plumb to the manifold, I guess the intention is to burn off the venting - but it usually stalls instead. Gas can then waft out of the intake, or get consumed when you next restart the engine (which is difficult, its flooded!).

I doubt you'd want to pipe to the underside when the pipe is common to vacuum reference, for fear of unexpected venturi effects at speed. So that does leave the intake tract.

Now that we know the KME PRV is part of the MAP/compensation connection, does this lend any more plausibility to the possibility that this might have been causing my "MAP sensor implausibility" problem on the BMW N62 valvetronic? I have not had this problem since turning the KME Gold's pressure down to 1.6 bar (from max). This was the post in question:

when the car is idling with some degree of manifold vacuum / throttling (minimum valve lift set between 0.5 and 0.8mm), then during driving, the car will intermittently trip into vvt failsafe (i.e. none valvetronic), and the reported error is 27B8 - differential pressure sensor implausible (MAP sensor).

I am going to drive the car just on petrol tomorrow, to see if the same occurs then.

Can you see any reason why the LPG system might confuse the car's MAP sensor readings, causing it to trip into non-valvetronic? It is only happening when I have part-throttled idle - i.e. minimum valve lift increased so that throttle is used for idling, but valvetronic throughout the rest of the rev range. The reason for doing this is that it eliminates the hesitation that I sometimes get when setting off on gas, which I presume to be caused by lack of manifold vacuum and accumulating LPG gases in the manifold (and I don't want to fit directional nozzles).

(halfway down here: http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13504 )

It hasn't ever happened since I turned the KME gold pressure down slightly - about 5 weeks now, and it was happening every 15-30 minutes before.