Even though my installer has told me there's no need for valve saver system to be fitted on my engine.
For peace of my mind and all recs. from everyone else in 'the game' . I have decided to retrofit a system , I have bought a simple kit off the bay to provide valve saver downstream of the throttle body , the question is do I have to drill into the throttle body elbow or is it just as well to tee into a vac pipe.
what do the pro's do?
easy job , just need to dig out an M6 tap if I need to drill.
prefer to do the job myself and not return to my installer
Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
Unfortunately, we do not use simple vacuum drip feed kits on turbo/supercharged, no fluid will get delivered against boost pressure.
Electronic systems provide positive pumped delivery and accurate dosing. There's a choice of simplistic - single feed point - or expensive - multiple feed points intended to distribute more evenly.
Given the expense of catastrophe here I'd be investing in a decent multipoint.
When fitting a singlepoint, I try to arrange the nipple so that drips fall into the middle of the airflow, as close to the turbulent butterfly as practical - in the hope of effective atomisation. Existing vacuum taps don't often fit the bill.
You might also need to worry about if the device(s) at the other end of the pipe could be affected by oil migrating up there, or even pooling. Especially when it can be pumped up there by boost.
Electronic systems provide positive pumped delivery and accurate dosing. There's a choice of simplistic - single feed point - or expensive - multiple feed points intended to distribute more evenly.
Given the expense of catastrophe here I'd be investing in a decent multipoint.
When fitting a singlepoint, I try to arrange the nipple so that drips fall into the middle of the airflow, as close to the turbulent butterfly as practical - in the hope of effective atomisation. Existing vacuum taps don't often fit the bill.
You might also need to worry about if the device(s) at the other end of the pipe could be affected by oil migrating up there, or even pooling. Especially when it can be pumped up there by boost.
www.blazegas.com
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
but I would be going in on the suction side of the s/c so it should be okay with a drip system surely?
on the induction elbow just d/s of the butterfly should be ok? it will always be less than atmospheric pressure will it not?
re pumped systems and manifolds , I prefer a simple one point entry as you should know straight away if you're not feeding fluid forward whereas with a complicated system one branch of the manifold may stop injection and you still think everything is hunky dory unaware one cylinder not getting lube.
thanks for the reply btw
on the induction elbow just d/s of the butterfly should be ok? it will always be less than atmospheric pressure will it not?
re pumped systems and manifolds , I prefer a simple one point entry as you should know straight away if you're not feeding fluid forward whereas with a complicated system one branch of the manifold may stop injection and you still think everything is hunky dory unaware one cylinder not getting lube.
thanks for the reply btw
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
I did completely forget the throttle-to-supercharger plenum as an option. But I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - too much uncertainty about where the rotors will throw the stuff. might all end up dribbling to just two cyls.
www.blazegas.com
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
I wouldn't put anything less than a pumped multipoint system. Plenum side of the throttle will not suck enough on a vacuum system, you need it pumped.
As mentioned above, you have no idea where the oil will go but you can guarantee it won't be evenly distributed with a single point.
Your engine will cost a small fortune to strip and rebuild so is it worth trying to save a couple of hundred pounds on a proper lube system?
Your installer says you don't need it? How many has he done/serviced with any miles on the gas?
Why don't you want to take it back to him?
As mentioned above, you have no idea where the oil will go but you can guarantee it won't be evenly distributed with a single point.
Your engine will cost a small fortune to strip and rebuild so is it worth trying to save a couple of hundred pounds on a proper lube system?
Your installer says you don't need it? How many has he done/serviced with any miles on the gas?
Why don't you want to take it back to him?
LPG Cars Ltd
Torrington Avenue
Coventry
CV4 9AP
024 7646 1199
www.lpg-cars.co.uk
Torrington Avenue
Coventry
CV4 9AP
024 7646 1199
www.lpg-cars.co.uk
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
lpg-cars wrote:I wouldn't put anything less than a pumped multipoint system. Plenum side of the throttle will not suck enough on a vacuum system, you need it pumped.
-I think the opposite tbh - best place for equal distribution will be a single point at the plenum/induction elbow just d/s the throttle butterfly and u/s the s/c , reason being it will get totally atomised at this point and especially once through the s/c .
As mentioned above, you have no idea where the oil will go but you can guarantee it won't be evenly distributed with a single point.
-I think there's more chance of a pumped manifold system having a breakdown on one or more line (blockage/restriction) leading to no valve saver whatsoever going to one or more cylinders . Keep It Simple usually works IME.
Your engine will cost a small fortune to strip and rebuild so is it worth trying to save a couple of hundred pounds on a proper lube system?
-Its not about the money at all I want what I would consider the most simple reliable system ( there's still some doubt in my mind whether valve save will actually do anything anyway - snake oil product????)
Your installer says you don't need it? How many has he done/serviced with any miles on the gas?
-God knows! he reckons he's done quite a few , BUT he's at odds with almost everyone I have consulted on requirement of valve saver on my car
Why don't you want to take it back to him?
- The main reason is that he couldn't map the thing so after numerous return visits I have got the lead and software and mapped it myself (after a week or two of trial and error )and its running fine (the best its been since conversion )with no codes popping up every time I use it (something my installer couldn't achieve) and the point above re requirement of valve saver.
I also have it set up to slipstream in some petrol over 3500rpm so when giving it beans it will get some cooling affect , and I do lots of stop/start journeys town driving so petrol will be used regularly for short periods , this and my comments above lead me to believe I have the right approach with it.
I'll let you all know IF things cause any issues in time
Last edited by NigelD on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bbstrikesagain
- Junior Member
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:40 am
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
If it were my supercharger I'm not sure I'd want to be dripping white spirit (the main constituent of several valve savers) into it - not sure if the oil seals etc are designed for much other than fresh air...
I have the Si Elecktronik sequential valve saver on my scoob. Reasonably impressed, but things to bear in mind: only does up to 6 cylinders so V8 etc would need two, i.e. very expensive and quite bulky; the lube pipes are fairly delicate so need routing carefully and protecting well - if you inject into T's in the vapour lines these pipes are pressurised with injector pulses too; finally for turbo (and presumably super) installation you need the PC software to tune the dosing, can't rely on the ring touching (ooh er missus) method.
Another point to consider is that in vacuum drip systems they never add lube under WOT anyway, read the test reports and some even make this clear - they are part time lubers, so in some respects the effect isn't so different if you use vacuum drip on on a blown motor - the lube lacquer should build on the valves while running MAPs below atmospheric so it may still offer it's protection during bursts of non-lubed play? Wouldn't want to spend hours at positive MAP relying on that though, which is why I went for a pumped sequential system - I do actually use the turbo..
I have the Si Elecktronik sequential valve saver on my scoob. Reasonably impressed, but things to bear in mind: only does up to 6 cylinders so V8 etc would need two, i.e. very expensive and quite bulky; the lube pipes are fairly delicate so need routing carefully and protecting well - if you inject into T's in the vapour lines these pipes are pressurised with injector pulses too; finally for turbo (and presumably super) installation you need the PC software to tune the dosing, can't rely on the ring touching (ooh er missus) method.
Another point to consider is that in vacuum drip systems they never add lube under WOT anyway, read the test reports and some even make this clear - they are part time lubers, so in some respects the effect isn't so different if you use vacuum drip on on a blown motor - the lube lacquer should build on the valves while running MAPs below atmospheric so it may still offer it's protection during bursts of non-lubed play? Wouldn't want to spend hours at positive MAP relying on that though, which is why I went for a pumped sequential system - I do actually use the turbo..
Normally aspirated engines suck!
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Tinleytech
- Junior Member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:51 am
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
First of all we are the Flashlube main distributors for the UK so may be biased.
we have direct experience of customers with S/charged Rrovers damaging the valves on the front two cylinders (and the next two a bit) using a drip system.
and direct customer experience of all inlet valves being worn/damaged by not using lube.
and direct customer experience of a pumped multipoint system (Flashlube) offering protection for high mileages.
I would advise extreme caution in making up fluid, Flashlube does coat the valves, others may or may not, home made almost certainly wont.
Flashlube and similar is relatively cheap, Land Rover spares and labour charges are not!
we have direct experience of customers with S/charged Rrovers damaging the valves on the front two cylinders (and the next two a bit) using a drip system.
and direct customer experience of all inlet valves being worn/damaged by not using lube.
and direct customer experience of a pumped multipoint system (Flashlube) offering protection for high mileages.
I would advise extreme caution in making up fluid, Flashlube does coat the valves, others may or may not, home made almost certainly wont.
Flashlube and similar is relatively cheap, Land Rover spares and labour charges are not!
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
to the OP just use flash lube or one of the other brands, its not worth the trouble to make your own substitute.
if you have set up a simple drip feed to the inlet side, you can run back a balance hose from the discharge side of the supercharger this will ensure you have lubrication when at boost pressure. but you may not even need it if you are using petrol at high revs.
if you have set up a simple drip feed to the inlet side, you can run back a balance hose from the discharge side of the supercharger this will ensure you have lubrication when at boost pressure. but you may not even need it if you are using petrol at high revs.
Re: Question for valve saver on Supercharged range rover
I would not want to drip feed valve saver upstream of the s/c. You will have no way of knowing how much will actually get to the engine and how much will just gum up your charger. If you are going to fit it go for a pumped metered system.
As for whether it is needed, I have had lots of very different opinions on this issue. I run a XKR with the same engine that has been converted with no lube. It is using an AEB system with petrol additions at the higher rpm and also does a reasonable number of short journeys where it will start on petrol. I have also had contact with reasonable number of others running without valve saver but also running with petrol addition.
I recently came across this http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/A ... tId=438065
It does not mention the jaguar v8 engines as suffering from vsr but does list them as having fuel pressure problems which in my case was solved with a fuel return line, this would infer that the engine is know to them.
The background reading I have done seems to indicate it is the exhaust valves that suffer due to the lack of soot build up. If this is true then is valve saver working but simply making the combustion a little dirtier? Does the use of a small amount of petrol do the same? As the OP has found out these aren't the easiest engines for some people to set up, is it badly set up cases that then run lean and eat valve seats?
VSR is an obvious case that it is a risk with an expensive consequence. I am now at 35k miles on my converted engine with no symptoms so far, but no one seems to indicate that if it was going to fail how soon that would happen, it is still something that worries me especially on here with a number of people insisting that valve saver is required, equally a similar number seem to hate the idea of any petrol addition.
As for whether it is needed, I have had lots of very different opinions on this issue. I run a XKR with the same engine that has been converted with no lube. It is using an AEB system with petrol additions at the higher rpm and also does a reasonable number of short journeys where it will start on petrol. I have also had contact with reasonable number of others running without valve saver but also running with petrol addition.
I recently came across this http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/A ... tId=438065
It does not mention the jaguar v8 engines as suffering from vsr but does list them as having fuel pressure problems which in my case was solved with a fuel return line, this would infer that the engine is know to them.
The background reading I have done seems to indicate it is the exhaust valves that suffer due to the lack of soot build up. If this is true then is valve saver working but simply making the combustion a little dirtier? Does the use of a small amount of petrol do the same? As the OP has found out these aren't the easiest engines for some people to set up, is it badly set up cases that then run lean and eat valve seats?
VSR is an obvious case that it is a risk with an expensive consequence. I am now at 35k miles on my converted engine with no symptoms so far, but no one seems to indicate that if it was going to fail how soon that would happen, it is still something that worries me especially on here with a number of people insisting that valve saver is required, equally a similar number seem to hate the idea of any petrol addition.
