Advice Please - Alfa - SaveLPG Oldbury Birmingham

[scottyf]

Hello All,
A while back I looked into DIY an lpg system onto my 1.6 16v Alfa. (Twin spark lean burn system).
Which I got a lot of advice etc.
However I didn't so much as shy away from it but I've just got the old girl through another MOT and now seems an ideal time to do it.

LPG works out to be far cheaper than diesel even after the first year. So seems crazy I wouldn't opt to do it.
Not to mention I can pretty much repair anything on a petrol car as I find them easier to work on.

Basically with LPG I save £1000 a year, diesel I'd save £400 a year. As the little 1.6 on the motorway at the moment does close to 40mpg constantly (Awful around town though I used to get 28).

So Ok - I left the DIY and I've been doing some hunting and need advice.

I defiantly want to go LPG. (Places round brum supply it at 57p a litre) http://www.birminghamautogas.co.uk/

Now I've been offered a conversion from http://save-car-lpg.co.uk/
for £750 which is the following system :-

Ecu: A.C STAG 4 CYL
Injectors: OMVL FAST
Reducer: Zavioli Zeta S
tank 630/200 - 56L, or higher with more liters
FlashLube Oil

All parts are TOP Quality made by A.C or A.E.B


Good deal ? I can't imagine its the top of the range system. But lets bear in mind the car has already done 124K (Engine has done 80K as I blew the bottom end out the last one. I refitted this newer engine). Is twelve years old and realistically I will get another 3-4 years running (If the car keeps passing MOT though I'll just keep using it) More to the point. I can swap it out when the car is done for another twin spark engine. (Although it might be a 2L twin spark next time).


I'm gonig to pay on credit card on 0% interest and pay it off voer a couple months but it makes financial sense.
Or can anyone offer me a better deal. Save LPG Seem to be UKLPG registed (Although that doesn't seem to mean much these days?) so if anyone has any experience with them that would be great.

Thanks for your time

[SnoozyBMW]

The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence) My insurers requested the UKLPG cert which i was pleased about as it shows there are some regulatory forces in place. Of course when the insurers ask the cheapskates without the certificates they normally spew off at the insurers and spout all sorts of threats etc. I wish these type of people weren't part of the LPG users as they bring it downwards (in my opinion)

The price seems cheap but I don't think AC Stag are too great, AEB are better.

[scottyf]

Indeed I wouldnt imagine the parts and kit would be at top or even middle ground. Just a basic system. We we shall call it budget. But considering when I looked at building my own kit it actually didn't work out much cheaper (Ok components were better) but for a similar cost I have someone do it for me and is UKLPG registered etc saves me messing about.

Unless there are others here that can offer a better system at similar cost etc?

Oh I also get two years warranty on it which is a big plus over doing it myself.
Although I am sure the warranty isn't worth much its some peace of mind should it start to run incorrectly.

[LPGC]

Save LPG Seem to be UKLPG registed (Although that doesn't seem to mean much these days?) so if anyone has any experience with them that would be great.

The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence) My insurers requested the UKLPG cert which i was pleased about as it shows there are some regulatory forces in place. Of course when the insurers ask the cheapskates without the certificates they normally spew off at the insurers and spout all sorts of threats etc. I wish these type of people weren't part of the LPG users as they bring it downwards (in my opinion)

The price seems cheap but I don't think AC Stag are too great, AEB are better.

Snoozy, you are misinforming the OP! The only regulation regards LPG installs on vehicles in this country is that by law an LPG install should meet the BS standard. UKLPG is a profit making trade body - it makes a profit from installers who decide to join the trade body, makes a profit from yearly membership fees, makes a profit from every install that it puts on it's private database. UKLPG is not a regulator. it does not make any laws or rules or standards. LPG installs do not need to be checked by, or concerned in any way with UKLPG. Most insurers don't hive a hoot about UKLPG or their database - because they recognise that this isn't required by law. UKLPG's COP11 is only a code of practice, it is not a regulation. COP11 is designed by UKLPG to be an easier to read installation version of the BS standard. UKLPG's whole point of existing is supposedly to make LPG installs on vehicles safer - but of course the real reason is to make money... Which is maybe why it is so difficult for installers who do bad installs to get kicked out of this trade body.. and the reason why UKLPG seem to do nothing about the farcical situation where installers can simply make a phone call to register any vehicle on their database without anyone from UKLPG or any UKLPG member ever having seen the vehcile in question let alone performed any kind of 'safety check' on it. No customer need worry about a vehicle or conversion not being on UKLPG's database - One phone call will get any vehicle on that farce of a database!

Not all AEB systems are better than AC Stag. Some AEB systems are still not truly sequential. For many years no AEB system was truly sequential, at which time Stag was arguably a better choice for many vehicles. I don't like Stag myself because I find the AD convertors for temp and pressure seem to read spuriously changing figures, some of the features are unusable gimmicks and I find it poor value since it has shot up in price. But I'm not sure you can comment if you haven''t fitted many? I do suspect that the quality of install and calibration will not be very good on a 'done in the day' conversion - this is in my experience having compared many installs, but it doesn't have anything to do with the parts that I see fitted.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[rossko]

Oh I also get two years warranty on it which is a big plus over doing it myself.

A definite plus, as it covers the whole job not just parts.

Can't beat that price, not worth getting out of my bed for

[scottyf]

Hello Simon,
Thanks for the balanced reply Simon.

I did a bit of reading before and came to the conclusion that UKLPG was jsut there to make customers feel a bit better or safe. But as I said I was pretty sure it didn't mean a damn thing.

In anycase thanks for your input. I guess going down to see some of the installs would be the best way to approach their handy work.

Like I say I am sure I could fit a system myself. However given the cost of some kits vs the offer. Its really not worth the outlay and having a warranty or even support is greatly needed.

Also if there are any other better offers of a similar cost I would gladly take those up.
Cash waiting etc.

[scottyf]

Ok understand the views on UKLPG.

So lets look at it another way. I'm handy with a spanner. I can rebuild engines and put them in and repair most if not all issues on a drive with my own car. Bar welding. I've yet to learn.

Now - I was opting down the route of paying someone so I can get a warranty and I know little about mapping.
What I'd really want is the ignition timing to be advanced a little. But I know that would probably take some serious kit.

If someone on this forum can offer a decent Kit or even install with a decent warranty or even help I am ready to hand over cash.

Like I say I spend appx £2700 a year in petrol a year. I can cut this down to half. I plan to keep the car for three or so years.
Its petrol that's 12 years old (Engine is 8 years old) but twin spark engines can be bought for £200 and I can fit them so that's not an issue if if all goes bang.

I just need it to happen asap to reap the benefits in 8-9 months time.
Must be able to pay with Credit card. I don't mind either a Kit or someone doing it but I dont want to spend more than £900 for say an install. Or Circa £600 for a kit.



Regards
Scott Farnham

[rossko]

Keep it simple - you can always come back and retrofit a timing advance kit to it later. Rarely worth the bother though.

[scottyf]

Can and will do!

[scottyf]

Right getting bored of talking so I plan on getting a Tinley Tech kit.

Just going to get this ...

Bigas/AEB SGIS kit, 3/4-cyl, up to 190 bhp (includes tank, filler etc)
With Loom for Bosch and software etc
Tank option - Tank shape and size: Toroidal 600x220/45 litres

All in £616

Unless anyone has got a discount code for it.

Seems like a fairly safe bet!

[LPGC]

I sell full kits for £618 all in- including tech support (phone calls / emails etc at any time not just during working hours), will 'hands on' show you where to mount everything if you collect the kit, issue wiring diagrams and piping diagrams, will check your work, will fix minor problems myself if you bring the car here after you have it fitted, will issue an installer cert when it is safe, will get it on UKLPG's database if you want (few extra quid), will calibrate it for you or talk you through calibration.

TinleyTech are a great supplier, they will give tech support but won't do everything I've listed above. Bigas are a decent system but the ECU's do restrict you to a smaller list of injectors compared to most systems these days.

Other pros on this forum offer similar services.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[LPGC]

Gilbert, I do agree....

Really the DVLA ought to be interested - if you drop a diesel engine in a petrol car or vice/versa, then they seem to be interested. I think in your case they would have changed fuel types on the logbook if your paperwork showed the name of the installer? Worth mentioning that the DVLA are not concerned whether a vehicle is converted by a UKLPG member installer or a none UKLPG member installer, UKLPG means nothing to the DVLA, they only need to see a receipt from AN installer to change fuel types on the logbook.

Coppers are not interested in whether a vehicle is converted to LPG or not, but a sharp eyed copper might be interested if they found a vehicle to be running on petrol when the V5 says it should have a diesel engine - Get that fuel type changed mate, let's have a look at your insurance? Coppers seem to learn new laws quickly, the first few weeks when it became compulsory to wear seatbelts they were pulling loads of people up for not doing so. I know this is slightly off-topic but years ago there was one particular copper who was mechanically minded and often checked under the bonnet of mates cars to see if they really did have a 1.1 engine (like the logbook said), or maybe a 2.1 pinto or Essex V6 with blue nitrous pipes in it's place.He would sometimes 'drop by' various mates houses to see what projects they had lined up... Some such projects were V8 Reliant Robins etc

The MOT scheme I proposed would mean you wouldn't need to have produced a receipt from an installer to the DVLA for the change of fuel type - the MOT pass cert (or database log) would show the vehicle had passed an MOT whilst running on petrol/LPG.
You know how coppers sometimes run checks on vehicles when they are driving behind, such as tax / MOT status, etc... If they saw a vehicle with a LPG filling point it would be an easy check to see if the V5 shows the correct fuel type whilst doing the other routine checks. Along with the compulsory MOT for newly converted vehicles and requirement by law to have correct fuel type on the logbook it wouldn't take long before all LPG vehicles had the correct fuel type on the logbook. I'm not criticising you for not getting the logbook changed, I've ran cars on LPG without changing fuel types on the V5 myself, the road tax incentive is small and many people simply don't bother changing fuel types on the logbook, so at the moment there wouldn't be much point to the fire brigade checking V5 fuel types. But from a safety angle (fire brigade point) it would make sense if all LPG converted vehicles showed LPG on the V5. I find it curious that UKLPG's scheme does nothing to prompt owners to change the V5, they have missed an obvious safety point, but then again probably realise that because the number of installs done by their members or on their database are in the minority there would be no point. Bit of a catch22 for them to address this now because it would highlight that only a minority of vehicles that run on LPG have been converted by none members and are not on their database.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk

[gasguzzla]

maybe they are difficult or expensive to insure??

But we know, or at least I do, from personal experience that that is not the case, despite UKLPG's protestations.

Scottyf, apologies for my part in hijacking your thread. I would always have any work I did looked over by a pro, so your suggestion of getting the work certified is a good one.

[scottyf]

That's ok. Its quite clearly a topical subject with strong opinions.

[john_d]

Si, didn't you say when your posts no longer require approval then you wouldn't need to write essays?

[john_d]

The only people it doesn't mean much to are the unregistered installers and hard core DIYers (both tend to dislike/resent being on the other side of the regulatory fence)

See Simons most recent post for validation of my first post

Of the 3 insurers I talked to on the phone, all wanted a UKLPG certificate.

why are you quoting yourself?

[Tubbs]

John walker strikes me as a very competent engineer. He is also a boat safety examiner. And gas safe registered I would wager.
As he randomly inspects members work, also works on member certification.
A very measured approach I would say.

[andy evans autogas]

Just a thought ..... I wonder if the OP still needs any advise on a gas conversion ????

[Gilbertd]

Oi! Which Mod decided he was going to be a censor? Appreciate that the thread had gone well off topic but it was still being read and contributed to by quite a number of people (and I spent bloody ages on my last post!). Lock it if you think it is getting out of hand (which I don't think it was) but don't go and delete 5 pages of discussion.....

[john_d]

Oi! Which Mod decided he was going to be a censor? Appreciate that the thread had gone well off topic but it was still being read and contributed to by quite a number of people (and I spent bloody ages on my last post!). Lock it if you think it is getting out of hand (which I don't think it was) but don't go and delete 5 pages of discussion.....

http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12025