What should be in an MOT check if LPG systems werein it

[tommo2009]

We have been going backwards and forwards for a while now, well rossko and I have, about what should be involved if LPG systems were to be checked at MOT time.

We all know that conversions should be installed to COP11, but some times installations don't meet this standard.

There are however some grey areas in the COP11 and are sometimes open to your own interpretation.

so what (if it were to be introduced) should the MOT check consist of.

Tanks and valves should be correctly marked. All tanks and valves come with their own certification, should these be presented when taken for MOT?
Are all pipes and cables correctly routed and secured in the correct manner
Are all pipes and hoses correctly marked for use.
Are all components withing the engine bay securely mounted
Are there any leaks.
Are the tanks excessively corroded
are underslung tanks securely mounted and have the correct amount of straps fitted
Are internal tanks securely mounted
Is the venting arrangement adequate.

If this was to be added to the MOT and we got charged for it, would you mind paying knowing that a vehcile you buy which has LPG installed is going to be inspected on a regular basis and by someone who has no other motive for failing it.

Please add to the list so we can possibly get something put together so we can approach the UKLPG or VOSA

[mat_fenwick]

Tanks and valves should be correctly marked. All tanks and valves come with their own certification, should these be presented when taken for MOT?

In an ideal world then yes, but it does potentially leave a problem for people who buy a second hand converted vehicle where the certification is missing.

Are all pipes and cables correctly routed and secured in the correct manner
Are all pipes and hoses correctly marked for use.
Are all components withing the engine bay securely mounted
Are there any leaks.
Are the tanks excessively corroded
are underslung tanks securely mounted and have the correct amount of straps fitted
Are internal tanks securely mounted
Is the venting arrangement adequate.

Some of these are arguably covered by the current MOT test, which doesn't prescribe the type of fuel system to be checked.

Any fuel leak will result in a fail. Checked under the bonnet and throughout the run of the fuel line from the fuel tank to the engine.
* fuel filler cap must fasten securely
* the seal in the cap must not be torn, deteriorated or missing (includes self-sealing flaps)
* no other defect which could cause fuel to leak out
* the fuel tank must be securely mounted.

Whether this is checked for in reality, is another matter...

If this was to be added to the MOT and we got charged for it, would you mind paying knowing that a vehcile you buy which has LPG installed is going to be inspected on a regular basis and by someone who has no other motive for failing it.

Please add to the list so we can possibly get something put together so we can approach the UKLPG or VOSA

I would be prepared to pay a little extra for any additional checks to be carried out, if it improved the real or perceived safety of the industry. I don't believe this should replace a full check of the system (and I don't think this is what you're suggesting), but it could prevent some dangerous problems and I can't see what harm it could do as an additional safeguard.

[cors]

I think with valves and high pressure gas accessories , this UKLPG/MOT should have a list of verified EU products which includes a unique ID for each product , and the first consideration for a product to be verified is that the manufacturer must have an external/viewable ID Character.
That would pretty much save everyone a heap of work and cut down your bad markets.

Seriously, with routing and joints if you wanted to be on top of your game and a world leader, the install should come with a current schematics of pipe work and wires, well everything added to the vehicle.That would also knock out some bad installers.

Another thing i am sneaking about is this MOT should have a test voucher and there are 2 types of test vouchers , both of which are had for a small fee.
If your install is installed by a company then you must be issued with type "company" by the installer , which has to be presented at MOT.
If you do a DIY then you must present the type"owner" voucher to MOT.
Obtaining a voucher is easy as long as you have 2 thing Company ID for a company and private ID for the DIY.You can also get a download of an half filled in schematics form.

These vouchers are more than paper , they are a contract between MOT and the installer to cover all lawful requirements.

Therefore under the new MOT voucher scheme , you can get an install 3 ways.
1. DIY and go to MOT with Owner Voucher
2 Company Install and go to MOT with company voucher.
3 Get the Queen to do the install, then pick up your "owner" MOT voucher for yourself ( this is a good one because now you have a contract with an installer based on contract details and not MOT details)No one to blame but yourself if things are not to standard.

All MOT testing must have the LPG voucher and must be accompanied by a schematics as previously mentioned.
Everyone who pays the small fee for the MOT LPG voucher signs for liability of install being correct to the schematics.

If you fail the MOT due to safety, un-verified parts or not correct schematics then you can only blame yourself or the INstaller(in which you have a legal case because of the required schematics) , but if you fail for your car being a pollution machine then you can only blame yourself for taking your car to a bad tuner.
The sneaky part of this is that the governing bodies can only allow a signed owners voucher or signed company voucher.The owner voucher must have the car owners details , the company voucher has company details.A company can only be considered a company if they have the permit to install(Standard regulated British approved Installer)

If you buy a car with LPG it must have the schematics with MOT stamp, any person can go online and view the verified products list and anyone can follow the schematics to check the car themselves for any non verified product changes,deception or damage.
Its a win for the little guy and its a win for the true gas men of the land whether they be an operating company or back yarder.
There you have it, i just cleaned up the problems.
Send this to UKLPG

[woody]

after recently converting a Chevy denali for a customer in France we should take a leaf out of there book
they need a manufacture certificate for every componant of the install and it has to be technically inspected,if it dont pass it dont get registered...oh and i,m sure he said they check the emissions to meet or exceed that of petrol.
This is all done by a government department, which means one standard.


incoming....................

[cors]

The end product sounds good but bureaucracy and paper work must be annoying.And it looks as though if an install has a changed gas valve of VAP after the test then it needs to be checked again?, because if not checked again the original check is kind of overkill and void if they allow parts swapping after the test without the standard GOV emission and parts check.

Its better to have an online data base with character ID and all the xtra user features needed to pass a MOT. power to the people and ofcourse the structure allows the end user opportunity to eliminate poor workmanship and non verified parts with the install schematics and Online database.
This means if you swap out one verified part for another the system is theoretically exactly the same as when it was driven into MOT.The use of standardized generated schematics gives the MOT tester a vast amount of information in such a short time frame, which means increased turn around time for the tester.

A procedure that generates user intelligence is better than closed bureaucracy.

If you can generate intel in the end user they become aware that there is a difference between an OK install and a great install and if they add up all the data and costs then an installer who offers the LPG voucher is a very good deal, because the voucher and schematics is recognition and warranty for individual installs and not recognition for the installer himself.

And also with the french deal , how do they address end user intel without schematics and database.Its the most important part of the whole project to have the certified schematics when selling an LPG car as this reduces almost all possibility of dodgy install and dodgy parts to be freely used . The end user if they choose becomes a MOT watchdog and if they apply some aptitude or they can just get the car looked at by anyone who can follow the schematics and look for verified parts listing in the database.

i mean i am trying to follow you guys and take all your best points and put them together
This procedure does it and can easily be applied due to the fact that you do have a governing body that can set it up with the MOT.
three main points happen that i see in every post that all the threads talk about as something desirable.
1. Power is given to an un biased regulator(MOT) without bureaucracy and without increase procedure times.The voucher fee also has the ability to create capital and cover some costings.
2. power is given to the Installation and not the installer.
3. power is given to the end user to continue to regulate the industry.

[cors]

heres 2 examples of using the schematics.


1. Mot tester checking new install with voucher.
Check voucher for Company ID in database or check for user ID by Vehicle Rego.(if the company ID is fraudulent on a company voucher then the test is denied, the same with the user voucher ID and vehicle ID, doesn't correspond the test is denied)
Check schematics for corresponding ID with voucher and vehicle rego.(doesn't correspond test is denied)
Check schematics for correct install data including joints, wires, fasteners, layout.
Check for safety on all parts.
Check for verified parts ID using database
Check finished.
If for any reason the LPG MOT is failed then the MOT simply adds a failed stamp to the voucher and a fail stamp to the schematics and with the MOT RWC reciept,schematics and Voucher is given back to the user.
If the voucher is a Company voucher then there is legal ability for the user to submit a review to the installer which is backed by the governing body.If installer does not address MOT RWC, then Governing body has too enforce a legitimate conclusion.

If the voucher is a user voucher then you being the owner are liable and addresses your own problems.
If the MOT test is passed the voucher is retained by MOT and they give you the schematics with certification stamps and Normal RWC.

2. Mot tester checking existing install with MOT "Pass" stamped schematics.
Check schematics for corresponding ID with Vehicle rego.(doesn't correspond test is denied)
Check schematics for correct install data including joints, wires, fasteners, layout.
Check for safety on all parts.
Check for verified parts ID using database
Check finished.

If the MOT LPG is failed then as the owner of vehicle you can only blame yourself , either by not keeping up the condition or by allowing a change on the install that does not correspond to the schematics.The schematics is then stamped fail and you as the owner are liable to comply with legislation and seek a new voucher and schematics.

If the install and schematics has a viable difference(as per guidelines) either in layout or by you upgrading to an additional system them you must submit the vehicle to a new MOT test with new voucher ID and new schematics so it can be approved.

A database of legitimate swap over items is very easy to compile, just as long as the guidelines are followed and all swapped parts are verified.This gives great security for the future of existing cars on the road.
Every vehicle without certified schematics can be effectively brought in under the new system, the owners just need to apply for a voucher and write up the schematics or go to a company who will offer a company ID voucher .Great for the industry , great for cars with correct installs,great for car owners now and in the future.

If you get an install done on a car and decide to sell the car years later , then the current schematics makes everything very easy for the seller,buyer,insurance and the governing body.
Effectively you have driven the whole market to a point where all cars will be of the same standard and you have given the most power to every party.

[tommo2009]

As earlier mentioned, what could be implemented is an LPG pack that goes with the car.
All Tanks Valves and Vapourisers come with certification, put these into a little pack and give it to the owner of the vehicle when it is collected. Explain to him the importance of this pack in that he/she will need it at MOT time.
If any changes are made to the system then the new certs should be put into the pack along with the date of fitting.
If the items are not included then it is down to the owner to prove that the valves tanks and vapouriser are marked.
As it is now, when a vehicle is sold it is down to the owner to send off the logbook, not the buyer. alternatively the onus should be on the owner to supply the required info for the LPG system

Then the MOT will only need to check the actual fitting of the system to ensure everything is upto the correct standard.

I know that some vehicles previous to this are not going to have the correct certs with them but there could be a cut off point, and all vehicles before that date will only require a check when MOT time is due. Unless the Markings are visible in which cae the MOT tester could issue a cert stating the serial no. etc

[lazydocker]

Sounds to me like a load of faff TBH

The installation inspection is basically what you are already talking about... If these were carried out by an Independent place instead of installers being able to self-certify that would eliminate the issues

As for checking the LPG system at MOT... It should already be done. It's in the testing manual (as has already been pointed out many times) to check fuel systems for leaks and insecurities The MOT tester cannot check serial numbers of components as they are often hidden either by location or (in the case of some 4 hole tanks) inside the vapour box. An MOT tester is not allowed to disassemble anyting as part of the MOT test So, basically, my type approved 4 hole tank would fail under the above schemes as the serial number and markings are inside the vapour box Still needs some thought IMO

The trouble is, LPG installers can charge whatever they like to inspect a DIY installation... That needs to change and be regulated I also know of someone who took a DIY conversion to be inspected and the chap refused to issue a certificate because the LPG loom hadn't been run through plastic trunking Where does it make any reference to that in COP 11?

[rossko]

Items for consideration for possible checklist -

Filler - adequate mount? dustcap? how to test for leaks? coupling type? (there's a bone of contention)

Regulator(s) - E-marked? venting arrangements for PRV where required?

Valves - might need to expand/clarify this includes shutoff valves

Emmissions - check on both/all fuels? (There's a new implication it needs to actually work on both/all fuels) Tighten up LPG specs to modern standards? (as per UKLPG)

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Any serious proposal might need to take into account that LPG is not the only gaseous fuel. I have no idea whats needed for CNG, not dissimilar I'm sure with a few differences, but someone ought to check it can integrated. I guess chicken shed methane rigs are classed "CNG" too.

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I think any certificate-pack based approach needs to be clearer about what to do when pack is lost/missing and actually spell out the recovery route e.g. who can check and sign off. "owners problem" on its own isn't good enough.
I would worry about self-printed 'certificates' appearing, that is exactly how we arrived here today. I hesitate to suggest a public registration database ...

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Extra charging is obviously 'politically sensitive', despite the perception that everybody else is stupidly greedy and corrupt I wouldn't expect VOSA to rush to embrace that idea.
There are LPG (or CNG) only vehicles, why should they pay extra?
A justification might be to charge extra for 'dual fuel' because of the added complexity e.g. multiple emissions tests. 'Dual fuel' would need careful defining, would/should it include diesel/veg oil rigs with seperate tanks? Could that create more profit for greedy installers removing petrol tanks, so that cars become cheaper-to-test LPG only?

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I think 'cors' is right, need to think out of the box here. MoT testing is about service/maintenance issues, not build/install type testing. Trying to force installation verification into it becomes impractical, or standards drop.

[lazydocker]

And an additional thought... The MOT is just a piece of paper that says a car was up to a set standard in the opinion of the tester on a certain day at a certain time... You can drive out of the MOT test centre and have a bulb blow or smash the bumper leaving a sharp edge

in the opinion of the tester

This is the important statement here... It is all down to personal opinion. I have seen vehicles passed by a tester that I (when I was MOT testing) would have failed. It's also very easy for a MOT tester to miss something

TBH, what would be better is if all LPG installations had to be inspected by an independent body (like the SVA at VOSA) to be entered onto the register.

[tommo2009]

TBH, what would be better is if all LPG installations had to be inspected by an independent body (like the SVA at VOSA) to be entered onto the register

Thats a good idea, didn't think of that route.

Any changes thereafter should only be acarried out by individuals who have done the training and been certified for the fitting of said system components
that way DIY'ers and installers must carry out the conversion to a safe standard

[lazydocker]

TBH, what would be better is if all LPG installations had to be inspected by an independent body (like the SVA at VOSA) to be entered onto the register

Thats a good idea, didn't think of that route.

Any changes thereafter should only be acarried out by individuals who have done the training and been certified for the fitting of said system components
that way DIY'ers and installers must carry out the conversion to a safe standard

Or another inspection by VOSA

It's the same as if you make changes to a certified conversion now (like change the tank/vaporiser), it's no longer actually certified (in theory) as the serial numbers won't match up

[rossko]

Twasn't me that said about SVA (this time), but eventually the prompts sink in

Any changes thereafter should only be acarried out by individuals who have done the training and been certified

Do I dare ask the obvious ... do I dare say 'closed shop' ... ooerr

[lazydocker]

Twasn't me that said about SVA (this time), but eventually the prompts sink in

Any changes thereafter should only be acarried out by individuals who have done the training and been certified

Do I dare ask the obvious ... do I dare say 'closed shop' ... ooerr

Errrmmm... Are you having fun yet?

I agree with the SVA type test... For ALL conversions

[cors]

I think there is a double standard with LPG.Not knowing the finer points of your legislation , it appears as though some brainy people have chosen to restrict the good people from regulating there own equipment. I would personally believe that anyone who voted for a restriction of repair and install of LPG would also have grumble if they had to find a qualified tradey to change the petrol fuel filter on their Bentley.

I

I think 'cors' is right, need to think out of the box here. MoT testing is about service/maintenance issues, not build/install type testing. Trying to force installation verification into it becomes impractical, or standards drop.

I knew you would like that

I have been reading a bit on all the UK problems, i think your posts are more directive rather than philosophical which is a best way.

[Gilbertd]

after recently converting a Chevy denali for a customer in France we should take a leaf out of there book :shock:
they need a manufacture certificate for every componant of the install and it has to be technically inspected,if it dont pass it dont get registered...oh and i,m sure he said they check the emissions to meet or exceed that of petrol.
This is all done by a government department, which means one standard.


incoming.................... :roll:

This is similar to what is starting to crawl out of this discussion further down the thread. In France there are two tests, le Meane and the Controlle Technique. Le Meane is roughly the same as our SVA (or IVA as it is now called) and is required if you want to register a vehicle that has not been officially imported into the EU so does not have EU Type Approval. In this case, it requires all of the certification for a gas installation. The Controlle Technique is far simpler as it is virtually the same as an MoT test and none of the documentation is required. In fact, the biggest diference between the MoT test and the CT is that you can still use the vehicle if it fails. There are varying levels of failure. Really serious means you are off the road but not as bad means you can still use it, you just can't sell it. My mates wife had an old Honda Civic with leaking rear brake cylinder. Due to the fact that you can only buy stuff like that from a main dealer at over £300 for a pair of wheel cylinders and brake shoes, he disconnected the rear brake circuit and plugged the pipes so all braking was done on the front. It passed the CT like that.

As I, and a number of other people have pointed out already, the MoT test is a safety test and LPG items are checked anyway. The discussion here is about an installation inspection. You've got two choices. Pay a UKLPG installer £100 or so to inspect and certify it or pay £140 (and make your appointment a month or so in advance) for an IVA test. I suspect that if VOSA are persuaded to inspect LPG systems then they'll increase the cost to cover the additional training that their testers will need to be able to inspect an LPG install.

[tom-madbiker]

of course if you were to put your car in for an iva test at vosa it would fail anyway irrespective of how the gas system was installed as no car passes first time i had a car fail because the aftermarket radio had a sharp edge on the volume button (ie less than 2.5mm) not many cars over 5 years old will pass anyway and again its down to the discretion of the tester to a certain degree trust me you dont want to go down the iva route unless you absolutly have to

[johnboy2]

Next January the MOT test will involve more testable items, it will include towbar electrics, battery security (again) and a load of other items that I can't remember right now, but it will also include LPG installations. Mot testers will have to have leak detection spray at hand, so they can test for any suspected leaks, I'll dig out the info if anyone is interested. Also an LPG safety certificate will have to be presented to the MOT tester at the time of test.
Watch this space

[stype3]

My 2p worth back here.

As far as I am aware COP11 is not a Legal requirement, its a standard put out by the LPGA.
If I am wrong, could someone point me to the UK legislation where it has become a legal requirement?
Particularly worrying for me would be the fact that the line from my LPG tank goes under one of the plastic covers for the full length of the car, thus is not visible for much of its length. Any other route would be quite dangerous.
regards

[Gilbertd]

Not to worry. As you say, CoP 11 is a code of practice and not a mandatory standard. All it really does is encourage good engineering practice even though it does have some contradictions. It states that pipes should be visible over their full length but also says they shouldn't be located where they can be damaged. In many cases, you can't have both. An MoT tester isn't allowed to dismantle anything so it will be a case of a squirt of leak detection spray at any visible joints and the rest of it gets left alone.

I'm a bit concerned about the need to produce a safety certificate though. My Saab was the only car I've had that had any documentation with it and I've sold that one. Maybe I should have copied the certificate before it went so I could produce my own for the other cars........