lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

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LPGC
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#261 Post by LPGC » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:50 pm

robertXX wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:55 pm
From what Simon was saying above. Is it true to say that with a totally empty tank filled up , and then I used up about half the gas and filled again , that it would take more gas to fill the second time ?
Not quite what I said/meant Rob..

There's obviously air in the tank on the first fill, air above the liquid gas might compress to higher pressure (due to rising liquid gas level when you fill) than *would-be* gas vapour pressure in the tank if the tank didn't contain air. E.g. if remaining tank headroom after filling with gas is only 1/10th total tank volume then there will be 9bar of air pressure in the tank because we compressed the air above the liquid gas. But if the tank didn't contain any air the pressure in the tank would be solely and directly related to the gas pressure, which would only depend on it's temperature.

Obviously gas wouldn't flow from a pump that is only pushing 7 bar into a tank that has 9 bar pressure and this is irrespective of if the tank's pressure is due to compressed air or gas pressure. It seems some pumps output (pumping) pressure is related to temperature because where pumps have a pressure gauge they seem to push lower pressure when it's cold (weather or perhaps liquid gas temp in bulk storage tanks at forecourts) conditions than in warm conditions. Perhaps these pumps push at pressure that is relative to their input pressure, the input pressure would just be pressure of the bulk storage tank at the forecourt which is (again) solely dependent on temperature of the gas in the bulk storage tanks.

In cold weather propane pressure in a vehicle tank can be low enough for compressed air to be the limiting factor preventing further filling when pumping pressure is low.

To get rid of air in the tank, filling to half full and running til low then refilling wouldn't work. There's only one way for air to come out of the tank and that is by being pushed through the tank outlet toward the reducer but since the fuel pickup pipe is usually submerged in liquid gas that won't happen until the tank is completely empty of liquid gas. Getting rid of air out of the tank this way (pushed toward reducer) can happen much quicker on a mixer system, which is more likely to allow the engine to run at least at low load while there is just vapour in the tank, than on a sequential system where at least in part due to the higher reducer output pressure the reducer and rest of system won't allow the engine to run when there is just vapour in the tank.

Even with a sequential system some vapour containing air will be forced toward the reducer each time the tank is run to empty but it could take running the tank to empty many times for enough air to be pushed toward the reducer with a sequential system to make much difference to the amount of air in the tank.

To speed up the process of getting air out of the tank it should be possible to: Before fitting the tank put a few litres of gas in it, turn it upside down to get the pickup tube into vapour rather than liquid, open the outlet, air will come out with the gas vapour. On some installs this isn't possible (might need to fit the valve after fitting the tank) and (in any case) an easy way of getting at least some air out of the tank would be to fit the valve and tank, use as normal for the first tank full, when it is empty disconnect the pipe from tank outlet, open the tank solenoid to allow remaining gas in the tank push some air out... there will always be some pressure in the tank even when it's run empty. If you did this multiple times you'd get most of the air out but once or twice might be enough to prevent air pressure having an effect on fill level and speed even in winter

In winter weather tank pressure might only be 4 bar, in hot summer periods it might be 10 bar... This is Irrespective of how full the tank is as long as the tank contains some liquid and isn't filled to 100%. But 'irrespective' isn't true if the tank also contains air which is compressed (above the liquid gas in the tank) to the point that the compressed air is at higher pressure than tank pressure would be without the air in the tank.

One proviso in all of this - It all depends on the pump pressure, so is the pressure on pump gauges (where fitted) absolute pump pressure or do the pump pressure gauges reflect the pumping pressure above tank pressure. All of the above depends on the gauges showing absolute pressure. Since fill speed seems to slow as a tank fills (and since tank pressure is only effected by temperature unless it contains air) I do expect the pump gauges to show absolute pressure (well not strictly absolute but you know what I mean, relative to atmospheric pressure).
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#262 Post by robertXX » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:12 pm

Thank you simon , so that's a "no ,i wont get more in the tank on successive fills after it being totally empty" is it :).


incidentally the pump gauge at my local shell reads 165 psi pumping when the tank is empty ,then rises to 185 psi when it shuts off ,on the astra that is .which has a definite shut off.

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#263 Post by LPGC » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:08 pm

You might get more gas in the tank on successive fills if you run the tank to completely empty.

165psi is 11bar, would expect that pressure to be able to fill the tank to around 11/12ths full (91.7%) before air pressure prevents further filling regardless of what you do with the tank valve. Perhaps less because the one way fill valve on the tank (discrete from fill shut off valve) needs X pressure to open before it will allow filling.

Don't know if the pump could actually push gas at 185psi (12,3bar) during actual tank filling but if it could that would change above figures to 12.3/13.3 full (92.5%)... not a great deal of difference to 165psi. The fuller the tank gets the more any air in the tank has an effect of preventing gas flowing into the tank, the pump pressure would have to rise at an increasing rate - If we wanted to fill the tank to 99% full and the tank started empty but containing air the pump would need 99bar (1485psi) pressure just to overcome the air pressure in the tank, the air in the tank would have been compressed to 1/99th of it's original volume which was the same volume as the empty tank. OK atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi not 15psi lol, but you get the concept. Or look at it from the other angle, if you wanted to fill the tank to half full air pressure in the tank would only be 1 bar because the air would be compressed into half it's original volume, so between half full and 99% full a pump would need to increase pumping pressure by 1470 psi lol... Except it wouldn't really be only 1 bar in the tank with the tank half full because the pressure of LPG in the tank would be maybe 5 bar this weather. Doesn't only apply with LPG though, it would be the same for any liquid that air could not dissolve in, if we tried pumping diesel into an un-vented tank the air pressure would still work against pumping. In the case of LPG which will find it's own pressure (temperature dependant) in a sealed container the pressure preventing pumping more fuel into the tank might be LPG pressure or might be air pressure but whichever is highest will be what prevents further pumping unless pump pressure is increased.

All the above due to just air pressure above the rising liquid gas. Now because gas vapour pressure at these sorts of winter temperatures is only around 60 / 70psi, suppose if someone did adjust their valve to fill to 95% or even disable the fill shut off valve completely.... it would be air pressure preventing the tank from filling further, not gas pressure in the tank and not the fill shut off valve. Now suppose someone modded the valve to what they think is around a 90% fill, they might go to the garage and indeed the fill might stop at 92%, they might then think they successfully modded the valve for around a 90% fill, but then come a hot day in summer they might go to fill again when the pump is pushing more pressure and some air has come out the tank and fill to near as dammit 100% full - combination of less air in the tank and higher pump pressure.

I fill a lot of different tanks with LPG, every time I convert one it gets filled to the top these days (unless the customer prefers me just to put a few litres in the tank so they can fill maybe cheaper local to them). I've done a lot of filling at Morrisons over the last few years and the pressure gauge this weather is down to 7 or 8 bar from maybe 11 bar or higher in warmer weather. At 7 bar pump pressure with a tank that started out containing air I can only get 7/8ths (87.5%) of a tank's absolute capacity into a tank regardless of whether I adjust/disable the valve etc because air pressure prevents filling further but if I got all the air out of a tank first I could fill to near 100% if I disabled the fill shut off valve.

Air pressure in the tank also slows the speed of filling, to greater extent with a low pressure pump. But even if I filled at your 11 bar pump and have modded the valve to fill to 90% I could still only fill to 90% (instead of 87.5% so only another 2 litres for a 90L tank) but the fill would be a bit quicker especially toward the end. If I could get all the air out of the tank before filling the fill speed would be the same all the while it was filling.
Last edited by LPGC on Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#264 Post by robertXX » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:38 am

gotcha , thank you .

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#265 Post by LPGC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:37 pm

Further to my posts above regards air pressure in tanks slowing tank filling and sometimes being the limiting factor in the percentage of gross capacity a tank can be filled to...

Since I last posted on this thread I've converted 5 vehicles to LPG, on all of them I put a bit of gas into the vehicle's tank from another tank I have in the yard (not much, just enough to get some pressure in and maybe a very small amount of liquid gas), then I released all the gas pressure from the vehicle tank (by removing the solenoid post), refitted the solenoid post and repeated a couple of times. This made a great difference to the speed of fill when I went to the forecourt to fill them with gas, particularly as the tanks neared the usual 80% fill capacity. But I bent the valves on all them to allow them to fill to 90%... Now usually when I bend the valve to allow filling to 90% and fill at the forecourt where pump pressure is only around 8 bar in this weather I still struggle to get much more than 80% in the tank (especially on the first fill, which is usually the only time I see the vehicle) but on these 5 conversions having pre-purged the tanks of air (which will have come out with the gas when I removed the solenoid posts) the fill rate was still relatively quick all the way up to around 90% which was when the float mechanism will have closed the incoming gas valve. Result! I will now be purging tanks of air in the same way on all of my conversions.

I'll do a thread on this at some point.
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#266 Post by robertXX » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:29 pm

very interesting ..thank you Simon.

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#267 Post by robertXX » Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:27 am

Time to get a bit data loggy wiv it .


Popped Medusa on the dyno on tuesday . I knew the clutch was slipping on full power , so i used a short run time of 8 seconds to try to race the car up the rev range before the clutch woke up and realised what i was doing, and slipping out of sheer spite .

first run was with a simulated load of 2000 lbs ..

BHP

Image



TRQ

Image




here is this run is compared with last dyno sesh, before i did the seals and raised the cr ..



TRQ..



Image




BHP..



Image







And this is how the two engines compared air fuel ratio wise ...



Image




with the flow valve closed on E2 , it is still way too rich , and lean lower down because i have to use the lpg flow sensitivity screw to offset the top end richness .


i did a few more runs ,but mr clutch had cottoned onto what i was doing and got a bit moody ,,,here are the runs with it letting go in different creative ways ..



Image



and got to a combined max of 258 bhp @4183 rpm , and 369 lbs/ft @2991 rpm .




i still could not get the mix on Engine No 2 leaner , so i did an alternative move ..



I only went and pulled out all 12 25mm venturi's, left the fueling as it was, and had another run...






THIS WAS A BIT OF AN EYE OPENER ....


BHP

Image



trq..


Image




The straight 12 revved happily round to 6000 rpm LORDLUVVADUCK.



BHP max was 329.4 @ 5225 rpm

TRQ max was 361.7 @ 3141 rpm



clutch was still slipping a bit 350lbs/ft sems to be about its limit .


air fuel mixtures ,compared with the venturi runs were logging thusly..





3.6 litre ..


Image




4.0 litre ..



Image





note the extreme lean areas , putting this run on top of the venturi run shows the loss of trq due to leaness..



Image




Image





another interesting thing ,,,if anyone is still awake lol...



my exhaust gas temperature logging with the venturis in gave me this ..


Image



and without venturis this ..



Image





Still the same of spread of horrible unevenness , so i did a run with the venturi in no5 only , thinking, if no5 was lean ,would pep it up no end ...




here is that run compared with the run before ..



Image






yup .. its worse ! so is no 5 actually too rich ?





next i added 4 degrees timing ...


this may have been a bit much ,,,early in the run , the revs wizzed round the clock ,and a cloud of grey smoke appeared from under the car,the clutch had thrown its toys out of the pram and gone totally hitler with me ..the power graph looked like this ..



Image





and that was that .



next thing is to change the clutch , and fit flow valves to all cylinders to get on top of the fueling .







regards
robert.

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#268 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:58 am

So what you are saying is.....

Even with the mixtures way out you are still getting 329 bhp. So what do you reckon it'll manage with the mixtures correct on all 12?
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'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#269 Post by robertXX » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:23 am

um , good question Gilbert , somewhere around 390 to 450 i would guess , the way it changed with 4 degrees more timing was a shock .

normally i go by 5d more bottom end and 4 d less top end for lpg versus petrol .

the jag engine APPARENTLY run 28 degrees max advance on a 9.8:1 cr . i have 11.6:1 cr ,and so have retarded it 4d to 24 ,assuming jag were being cautious ,and also my intake temps would be lower since the whole engine is out in the open ,and the exhaust temps would be lower due to my whole exhaust system being great big radiator basically .

so i thought 24d would be pushing it ..however , the car sounded and went way more aggressively on 28 d timing , and the clutch had sort of kinda held on with the 330 bhp runs , with the extra timing it was totally burnt out at 2400 rpm ...so i am a bit confused , maybe the jag runs more timing than i thought stock ? it is quite a big cylinder at 660 cc ,which might need more timing , however a 4 valve pentroof chamber usually burns faster ....

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#270 Post by robertXX » Sun May 05, 2019 10:25 am

Thought i might update this palava !

reclaimed 2 plate DB9 clutch adapted t car . bit fiercer but no slipping. rotating assembly weight now 37 lbs instead of 45 lbs .not sure i prefer that . much more transmission rattling , this is a aston clutch thing .

so i am back the economy drive .

first trip to blenheim i got 4 mpg . next trip to bicester scramble i got 8mpg. this as after skimming heads to 11.6 from 9.8:1 and new ht leads and plugs etc.

last trip to bicester scramble saw me back down to 5.5mpg , i was thrashing it a bit racing a bike .


these mpg figures make the car a bit unusable on my lack of income .

i fitted exhaust gas temp sensors to the back engine , and no 5 cylinder ws cold , i adjusted the gas flow from all in the back of the globe to half in the and half in the bottom and got this change..


Image


lhs old rhs new , no 5 is the black line.

now no 5 is alive .


i am beginning to feel that ,as was suspected , the combination of air flowing past the bellmouths ,at different pressures as it goes down the car as it moves along , and the different shapes and length of copper pipes feeding the mixers , is combining to create a huge variation in the fuel mix per cylinder ...i am measuring the air fuel ratio with my wide band sensor , however its only getting the end mix of 6 cylinders.


i have now fitted seperate flow valves to each cylinder , and i can drop th hottest cylinder down with adjusting one of them so will now try to adjust to match the temp lines and see what that does .

Image




weirdly , the front engine plugs are coming out nice and even in colour , not so the rear engine .




i have a horrible feeling the only way to get some decent mpg will be to inject the car , using a megasquirt i was gong to use for the tvr .


it has been said ,well robert its 7.6 litres , what do you expect ?

i think i expect much better ! lol, bearing in mind the car has very low frontal area , is pretty light at under a ton , has really big low rolling resistance tyres , and high gearing at 32 mph/1000 rpm . oh and is a high efficiency pentroof 4 valve head with 11.6:1 compresson ration and short 240 degrees cam duration .

poxy thing .




regards
robert.

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#271 Post by robertXX » Sat May 11, 2019 10:40 am

right... now i need to work out how to inject the two engines with a ms2 ecu.....

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#272 Post by LPGC » Sat May 11, 2019 5:42 pm

robertXX wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:40 am
right... now i need to work out how to inject the two engines with a ms2 ecu.....
I think you'd struggle using just one MS2, especially since the 2 engines have different capacities so for a given throttle opening they'll be gulping different amounts of air. I'm not that clued on MS2 but even if you could set the 2 engines up as 2 cylinder banks I'd expect MS2 (or firmware/software) will only support a single map, single TPS, single Map sensor (not that you could really use map for fuelling reference with such short intake runners)... ?

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#273 Post by robertXX » Sat May 11, 2019 6:03 pm

short inlets !

Image

i can get a good map signal on my data logger with all inlets vac stubs connected by a little plastic manifold under the inlet , i use this for the vacuum supply to the brake servo.i can use one tps , since the throttles open at the same time , and one gas temp sensor , there is a 66 cc difference per cylinder ,between the engines , 10 % ,however i think people have run staged injectors , so there should be the option for 2 maps .i have the 60-2 toothed wheel one of the jag engines came with, also a weird 62 -6 ...with 2 teeth missing at 120 degrees locations .


research continues :)



regards
robert

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#274 Post by LPGC » Sat May 11, 2019 8:35 pm

The inlet trumpets are longer than I remembered them!
Know what you mean, I've used T'd vac stubs on engines with effectively similar short inlet tracts such as BMW M5's, vac signal wasn't as progressive/indicative of engine load for a given rpm and throttle position combination as it would have been with a conventional plenum but that wasn't as critical for my purpose because I didn't need the vac signal as input for engine load, for me it was OK as long as the reducer and map sensor saw the same vacuum. Are you getting a good load indicative vac signal?
If you can run 2 maps it seems you've got a decent basis for running single MS to fuel both motors :-)

Still liking the look of the batcave! ;-)
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#275 Post by robertXX » Sat May 11, 2019 8:44 pm

here's a log of a couple of power runs Simon , you can see the blue line is the map signal , it shows full throttle then it drops as i close the throttle at the end of the run ..


Image

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#276 Post by robertXX » Sun May 12, 2019 9:52 am

now here's an evil thought ..


Image


there's a diagram of my current reducers .(in fact its a r89 cng one with a few extra bits but its close enough) if i blocked the passages to the gas outlet chamber by the big diaphragm in the back , remove the 2nd stage diaphragm , and put a fitting in the 2nd stage lid , would i not get 80 mbar(first stage pressure) out of it for injection ? then i could also fit a stronger spring of a spring preload screw for changing pressure ?



like so ..


Image


i can see i missed a pressure balance port from the backplate to block .

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#277 Post by LPGC » Mon May 13, 2019 11:29 am

robertXX wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:44 pm
here's a log of a couple of power runs Simon , you can see the blue line is the map signal , it shows full throttle then it drops as i close the throttle at the end of the run ..
As expected and that is a good sign. For most of the chart the blue line shows near no vacuum (flat out) and you lift at 1:4 so engine makes most vacuum then (about 0.35bar on over-run?).. but the chart doesn't show how map responds to engine load at part throttle unless at 48 and 52 you lift off to about 80% throttle (and if you didn't lift off what happened at 48 and 52?). Would expect map to rise and fall with engine load but what I'm questioning is both how consistent it is at that across the rpm range and what the resolution (for want of a better term / how accurate) the map signal will be at lower rpms. Seems that after over-run the engine returns to idle (difficult to tell, rpm line not working?) with 0.65 bar map, though that could be due to the lean mixture. If idle at 0.65 bar isn't due to lean mixture the reading might be artificially high due to the trumpet and T'd vac pipes setup because would expect this engine with a plenum and correct mixture to read about 0.35 bar map at idle. To clarify... Resolution - If idle vacuum with a plenum would be 0.35 bar but because of the setup the reading is 0.65 bar the resolution between idle and flat out is only 0.35 bar when it would have been 0.65 bar with a plenum. Response - So with the engine idling map is 0.65 bar (when with plenum it would be 0,35bar), if you then go to medium throttle (so with plenum map might read 0,7 bar) does map with this setup move to 0.7 bar or 0.8 / 0.9 bar, and then between 0.8 /0.9 bar what does engine load have to be before this setup reads near 1 bar (which with a plenum would be flat out). Consistency - If the response of the map signal / resolution changes with rpm. Any single or combined aspect can make accurate mapping difficult and have prompted builders of engines with modded intakes and/or big cams to use TPS based fuel injection rather than map based.

Dunno about the reducer mods!
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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#278 Post by robertXX » Mon May 13, 2019 11:39 am

the graph is of a run on the dyno , so the drops are gear changes as i work up to 4th , then floor it , then the slight drop is the venturi rings restricting it , then shut off and coast down with throttle on tickover and the clutch in , also may have blipped it .

the scale to the left is in psi , so tickover is -6psi ,which is around 12 " hg ,a bit low .but since it was tending to run on 4 on tickover/cruise and oiling plugs like a barstard ...on that engine not surprising.

overunn is -10.3 psi , so around 22" hg , that's not too bad .

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#279 Post by robertXX » Tue May 14, 2019 10:39 am

ok dokey , well the next problemo , now i have my crank sensor on , is injectors , as usual with me , cost is more important than perfection !

it would be wonderful to have a set of 12 kei hins , but er nope , not ever going to be in the budget .


so , what have i already got ?

i have the 8 matrix injectors i got off dai... and i have the 4 valtek30's i took off the astra ,3 of which work .


it would be preferable to have the same injectors for all 12 cylinders , however another new set of matrix is not affordable .

so i can use 6 of the 8 matrix for one engine , then i could aquire a set of 4 new valteks for 30 quid for the other engine, and use 2 of my old ones to go with them .


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Autogas- ... ctupt=true



there is a set of good looking omvl injectors for 24 quid on ebay , but then i would have to buy another set of those at 35 odd quid so total outlay would be 59 .


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OMVL-REG-4CY ... ctupt=true




https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OMVL-DREAM-L ... ctupt=true




but would omvl be any better than valtek30's?



next q , is , how long can i make the tubes from the injectors to the inlets? is it critical then have to be as short as possible , or could i get away with up to a foot ? this would give me more leeway on where to hide the injector block....speaking of which , does it have to be nozzles downwards when mounted ?



i have always assumed the pipes want to be as short as possible , and the nozzles need to be downwards due to gravity affecting the pistons in the inj rail , but hey worth asking .


regards
robert

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Re: lpg feed pipe size on 500 bhp engine.

#280 Post by Brian_H » Tue May 14, 2019 4:07 pm

That listing actually has 2 sets not just one so might be a bit cheaper than your thinking. Those are the same injectors all my current vehicles use and i've got no complaints about them, With nozzles removed they can cope with a Rover v8 4.0 Thor if that helps?

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