Do the injector banks need to be matched?

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Gilbertd
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#41 Post by Gilbertd » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:10 pm

I hope you haven't paid them. Take it back and tell them to do it properly.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

rossko
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#42 Post by rossko » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:25 pm

Very difficult to see what the heck they are playing at. Any injection system relies on all injectors being alike - not vaguely alike, or looking alike. Even mixing well-worn and brand-new of the same type can cause grief. Going back to post one, I'd say you should remain "quite upset".

Frankly I'd expect an elderly Zavoli system to actually work better with the cheaper Valteks than either the Hanas or Keihins, but I shouldn't think anyone else has experimented with that.

I suppose you've invested in these guys now, too late to go elsewhere. Can you recover your old Matrix? I've never had any joy sourcing the refurbish kits for those but they do exist in theory.
www.blazegas.com

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#43 Post by BigTed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Hi,

I'm in my last month of warranty for the vehicle (11/12)

So no additional money has been paid.

At the time of purchase we were told there was still two years 'on the gas system'.

I had hoped that it would all just work, but it hasn't.

So when they suggest a faulty lambda censor (again) I can raise the matter of the mismatched injectors and see what drifts across their expressions.

Ted.

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#44 Post by BigTed » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:49 am

Hi,

Managed 25 miles after picking it up on Saturday before the emissions light came on.

On Sunday, the car started misfiring and was having difficulties accelerating up hills.

Phoned the garage, explained the problem was advised to give it a few more miles (is there some sort of adaptation capability in the ECU?).

I mentioned the concern about mismatched injectors, and they seemed very happy that they were electrically matched suggesting they came form the same factory and the differences were in the labels.

Wednesday, my partner was using it and the misfireing and loose of power is getting worse (can't accelerate going up hills) won't go over 70 etc.

They're coming round to pick it up.

New injectors:

Image

Other Hanas:

Image

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#45 Post by BigTed » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:06 pm

Emailed them both to ask for comment:

http://www.hanaenggas.com/main.html

"...Keihin injectors and our injectors have the same technical parameters, but they are not produced at the same factory. Keihin injectors are Japanese product, and ours are Korean product..."

http://www.keihin-corp.co.jp/english/index.html

"..we manufacture our own product at our sites and do not deal with any Hana products.."
"..Keihin DO NOT sell our product (in this case, injectors) under different labels.."


Responses as I get them above.

Ted
Last edited by BigTed on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tubbs
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#46 Post by Tubbs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:49 pm

So hold on you have hana on one side and keihin on the other now ? The valteks have gone ?

classicswede
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#47 Post by classicswede » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:49 pm

The silly thing is it would have been a lot cheaper for them to have fitted the matching set of Hana injectors!

I take it the do not do LPG installations then just car sales?
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BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#48 Post by BigTed » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:09 am

Hi,

Yip mixed injectors (can't be sure that the vehicle was actually sold to me with MATCHED injectors), misfiring again.

They are a PRINS dealer, they sell LPG and LPG converted vehicles.

Waiting to see what happens now.

Ted

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#49 Post by BigTed » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:55 am

Emailed them both to ask for comment, so definitely not made in the same place but Hana are claiming they produce injectors with the same technical parameters:

http://www.hanaenggas.com/main.html

"...Keihin injectors and our injectors have the same technical parameters, but they are not produced at the same factory. Keihin injectors are Japanese product, and ours are Korean product..."

Intermediate account sent this: (from Google translate):

메일 검토 바랍니다.

권태주 드림.

Please mail review.

Dream week boredom.


http://www.keihin-corp.co.jp/english/index.html

"..we manufacture our own product at our sites and do not deal with any Hana products.."
"..Keihin DO NOT sell our product (in this case, injectors) under different labels.."

Gilbertd
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#50 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:09 am

Hana make an injector that is a Keihen under licence. This means, to me, that they are a copy of a Keihin but may not be absolutely identical in all respects. You really do need both injector banks to be identical and of a spec that your controller supports.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#51 Post by BigTed » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:26 am

"Hana make an injector that is a Keihen under licence"

Can that be found in the public domain?

I want to be very carefull of facts, if this goes wrong then I'm looking at alternative dispute resolution:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/ ... on_adr.htm

I'll need documentary evidence if I start down that route.

Ted

rossko
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#52 Post by rossko » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:00 am

I think the "licence" thing is word of mouth sales blurb - I haven't seen it written down. They look similar but are not identical. Keihins are considered the best, and if I was making something that looked similar I'd want to piggyback on their reputation too...
I haven't dismantled either but one guru on here suggests they are of different internal construction, pintle vs. diaphragm.
Cutaway of a Keihin
http://www.autotechnika.net/images/vsi3.gif
I've found nothing similar for Hana

The information you seek is whether it is sensible to use mixed makes on one car. It's not quite the same question as 'compatible' or 'interchangeable' as sets. It's not clear if either manufacturer told you yea or nay on that?
www.blazegas.com

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#53 Post by BigTed » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:20 pm

Hi,

I've asked Hana about mixing them, I didn't want to bother Keihins any more as my contact was in a subsidury company and not directly with the factory (Keihin in Hamilton make ECU for Honda if I recall correctly - they just passed it up the chain)

I've also asked Zavoli in the UK to comment on the current ECU and if it can work with two different manufacturers.

Zavoli is where the best evidence will come from.

Hana and Keihin would have to compare spec sheets and manufacturing tolerences - if it comes to it I'll gather that evidence from the public domain. (I need to verify the models used)

Don't suppose you know how to identify models?

Ted.

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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#54 Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Regardless of their claims that the mismatched injectors are OK, the emissions warning light coming on is clearly NOT RIGHT. Do they give any explanation (plausible or otherwise) for this? All you want is a car which is running correctly, and how that is achieved shouldn't have to be your problem!
Another member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#55 Post by BigTed » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:34 pm

> Do they give any explanation (plausible or otherwise) for this

Previously they have suggested Faulty lambda sensor / Dirty Gas, then the misfiring re-appeared.

For the dirty gas aspect 'they cleaned the system out' to remove the heavy ends and promised to get some new injectors in (in this case the Keihins which apparently had to come from Germany - hence the wait)

> All you want is a car which is running correctly

Yes

Gilbertd
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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#56 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:20 pm

They would have been able to see a faulty lambda sensor immediately by looking at the software or using a scan tool. To get the amount of 'heavy ends' they claim you had, what did they think you were filling up from? Upturned Calor gas bottles?

Prins installer or not, they don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#57 Post by BigTed » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:46 am

I asked Hana about using a mixture of injectors on a V8 and they said:

"We do'nt make any products under the terms of a commercial license with Keihin. We think V8 engine can run with a set of hana injectors and a set of Keihin installed."

Sounds like they are confident that they have matched the specification of the Keihins, although the phrase 'can run' might be prone to misinterpretation.

Wonder what Keihin think.

If only I had a huge test facility at my beck and call.

Ted

BigTed

Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#58 Post by BigTed » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:19 pm

Hi,

Got the vehicle back on Saturday, everything running fine.

The Keihin have gone, and I now have another set of Hana injectors.

So I now all my injectors are made by one manufacturer - I'll get the numbers of them (and a photo) at the weekend.

Ted.

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Re: Do the injector banks need to be matched?

#59 Post by classicswede » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:25 pm

At least now you have a chance of it running right
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http://www.classicswede.co.uk/LPG/cat17 ... 10800.aspx

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