Leaking injector? how to test?

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agostino
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Leaking injector? how to test?

#1 Post by agostino » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:08 pm

Hello,
from a few weeks my car started to show some errors on the OBD, the error is the P2196 (O2 sensor stuck rich).
This happens randomly during cutoff..
I changed the lambda as I thought it was gone, but still the error comes here and there (like once a week).
Yesterday this happened during acceleration, the car had a very brief hesitation like a misfire and the error appeared..
The mechanic can't find anything wrong with the car (Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 VTi) so I am trying to figure out if this might be caused by some injector leaking (over 100k miles on them).
Any idea? The car is driving good with no problems most of the time, it doesn't smoke and doesn't fail the MOT...

also very difficult start in the morning, in fact, every time the car sits overnight is very hard to start the next morning. If it sits for many days instead starts fine...

agostino
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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#2 Post by agostino » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:53 pm

some time ago I have bought some injectors replacement parts (magicjet) from lpgshop online.
The spring however appear to be slightly different (tiny bit longer and softer) than the ones I am using now with the original injectors.
I am wondering if I am better off trying to change all the seals and the small piston inside and see how it goes...If I change springs, will i have to recalibrate?

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#3 Post by Brian_H » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:28 pm

Easiest way to check for a leaking injector would be to put the end of the hose from it into water, if it bubbles (may only be very slowly) when you have pressure between reducer and injector then its leaking.

Monitoring the pressure if you have the software would also indicate if it is leaking (again monitor pressure when its switched to petrol running)

If you run it on petrol for the last couple of minutes of running does the cold starting issue go away?

Its also possible for it to leak via the vacuum line between reducer and manifold if your system has one (most would do)

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#4 Post by Brian_H » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:41 pm

agostino wrote: also very difficult start in the morning, in fact, every time the car sits overnight is very hard to start the next morning. If it sits for many days instead starts fine...
Should have said this above - That does suggest its possibly flooding the inlet manifold with gas when switched off, If it was consistent (stayed like it all the time) then trims would be more likely as a possible cause. The petrol running before shutoff would allow you to burn off the remaining pressure to confirm if thats the cause.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#5 Post by agostino » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:58 am

Hello Brian
thanks I have the software so I can easily measure the pressure.
My system is a vti so it does not have vacuum.
I will let you know..

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#6 Post by Brian_H » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:24 pm

agostino wrote:Hello Brian
thanks I have the software so I can easily measure the pressure.
My system is a vti so it does not have vacuum.
I will let you know..
It may not have it, but check if someone else installed it that the line isn't connected if thats the case, Will be a vacuum hose running from the smallest connector on the vapouriser.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#7 Post by agostino » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:22 am

Hello Brian,
I did the test you recommended. Pressure when running on petrol is 1.02Bar and while on gas is 0.98Bar.
Pressure doesn't seem to drop if running on petrol (or its very slowly dropping), but it might be because the solenoid valve is open?
I noticed there was an error logged in the LPG ECU: evaporator solenoid.
I cleared it from the software and over these two days it did not come back.
If I don't use the car for 2-3 days, it starts easy. If I leave overnight, cranks a bit before starting.
Since I was there I also activated the autoadaptivity in the LPG ECU, lets see if it helps with the "too rich" lambda error I was getting...

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#8 Post by Brian_H » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

agostino wrote:Hello Brian,
I did the test you recommended. Pressure when running on petrol is 1.02Bar and while on gas is 0.98Bar.
Pressure doesn't seem to drop if running on petrol (or its very slowly dropping), but it might be because the solenoid valve is open?
I noticed there was an error logged in the LPG ECU: evaporator solenoid.
I cleared it from the software and over these two days it did not come back.
If I don't use the car for 2-3 days, it starts easy. If I leave overnight, cranks a bit before starting.
Since I was there I also activated the autoadaptivity in the LPG ECU, lets see if it helps with the "too rich" lambda error I was getting...
Run it on gas, switch engine off, then monitor the pressure - if it drops its leaking! Solenoids and injectors should be all closed in that state.

Or try what i suggested above - run on petrol for the last couple of minutes at the end of a journey and then see if it starts easier the next time.

Error could have been logged for a long time, if it doesn't come back i'd ignore it (could have been it got unplugged when filter changes etc been done or other work on the engine)

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#9 Post by agostino » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:42 am

Yep it is not leaking.
What I found using the lexia and the peugeot software is that the error was triggered because my fuel trims were out of range: I had a -21% stored and the maximum tolerable is +-20%.
I think I am positive the map might need a bit of attention.
I will work on it on the weekend and if I can't sort it out go to Simon for having a look (its 70miles for me so I'd try myself first).
Many thanks for your help...

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#10 Post by Brian_H » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:11 am

It does sound like it needs the map looking at, Good luck with it.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#11 Post by LPGC » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:36 pm

If the map worked OK for 100000 miles it could be that the injectors are worn out, worn out injectors don't necessarily leak and seldom do.
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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#12 Post by agostino » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:09 pm

Thanks Simon,
I will replace the inside over the weekend and see how it goes. Worst case will get new ones.
Unfortunately the lpg packed completely today with a permanent "evaporator solenoid" error.
It does not switch to LPG at all.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#13 Post by Brian_H » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:24 pm

agostino wrote:Thanks Simon,
I will replace the inside over the weekend and see how it goes. Worst case will get new ones.
Unfortunately the lpg packed completely today with a permanent "evaporator solenoid" error.
It does not switch to LPG at all.
Look at the solenoid coils first. Check they are connected and check resistance across them.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#14 Post by agostino » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:46 pm

The back solenoid in the tank is fine, I hear it clicking..
the "evaporator" solenoid I can't find..I guess its in the engine area but I have no idea how it looks like..
I will try following the pipes and see if I have more luck..

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#15 Post by Brian_H » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:44 pm

It will be on or close to the vapouriser. You should be able to find it by finding the vapouriser and looking where the gas line comes in from the tank - this will either be a copper pipe, or a plastic pipe rather than the rubber pipes. It will either be directly screwed into the vapouriser with the coil on it (will look like the one on the tank) or in the pipework somewhere close.

Photos of the unit might help if your struggling to find it, if you can get any that show it of course (the vapouriser may well be buried down in the engine bay somewhere).

Variety of valves on any suppliers website - Tinley tech for example > http://tinleytech.co.uk/product-categor ... search=yes shows pictures of typical ones.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#16 Post by agostino » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:01 pm

thanks Brian
I found the vaporiser but unfortunately I cannot reach it.
Its buried behind the engine and it looks like it would be best to reach it from the bottom.
There are plastic pipes going in and quite a few rubber ones as well.
I guess the rubber ones need some attention as they have quite some residuals of coolant dried up around them (in fact I was slowly loosing coolant).
I guess it'd be best for someone more skilled to have a look at it..my mechanic doesn't want to touch LPG.

it is curios but the solenoid works fine when the car is cold, up to around 60C, then it stops. Once the car cools again it starts working...
Wondering if its gunked up?

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#17 Post by LPGC » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:26 pm

More likely the solenoid coil becomes open circuit at the higher temperature due to a fault... is the coil cracked anywhere? Or some sensor goes duff (maybe for similar reason) when when it gets warm and the ECU then refuses to switch to gas due to the seen fault condition. More likely duff coil though.
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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#18 Post by Brian_H » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:59 pm

LPGC wrote:More likely the solenoid coil becomes open circuit at the higher temperature due to a fault... is the coil cracked anywhere? Or some sensor goes duff (maybe for similar reason) when when it gets warm and the ECU then refuses to switch to gas due to the seen fault condition. More likely duff coil though.
Coolant leak likely to be worse when engine is hot. Not leaking into the coil is it?

Might be simple to sort coolant leaks if you can reach them. Possibly a case of tightening jubilee clips?

If it's low down then yes going in underneath probably best.

Given it works when cold probably not gunk. You'd expect that to be worse when it's cold as it tends to be stickier.

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#19 Post by agostino » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:57 pm

Well its like almost a year that I noticed I had to fill about half a litre every 4000-5000 miles.
The leak is not into the coil, its on the side near the jubilee clips.
But its hard to see as I have a very limited view of the evaporator, it would be easy to tighten the jubilees but can't reach them...
The evaporator is left/underneath the battery/ECU and its almost completely covered by the inlet pipe and throttle body.
I did a few more test today:
the king software shows me a persistent Evaporator solenoid error
If i remove it while the car is running, it switches to gas and the engine stalls, immediately a new "evaporator solenoid" appear
The solenoid at the tank is easy to access and works fine at my tests...
I did have a couple of stalls in the last weeks that couldn't figure out, it might have been the solenoid closing intermittently.
Even knowing the issue if I can't reach it is not going to be helpful, and I usually drive 100 miles a day so its going to be an expensive week going on petrol :(

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Re: Leaking injector? how to test?

#20 Post by LPGC » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:23 pm

Seems you have a few things to go on...

I might start by disabling the LPG system onboard diagnostics because when some AEB ECUs get older they do start to generate random errors. If this makes the symptoms go away that's all you'd need to do. Whenever the LPG ECU detects a problem of that nature (solenoid coil) it forces an immediate switch back to petrol but it can only detect electrical problems, it couldn't detect a problem with the mechanics of the solenoid itself other than it's coil.

Or could replace the coil on that solenoid and leave the diagnostics enabled to see if the fault code reoccurs.

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