Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

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MartinM
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Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#1 Post by MartinM » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:08 pm

Hello all, New to here and hope i'm in the right place.

Right i have just purchased an 2001 X5 4.4i, it has an LPG conversion done around 2006 i think, thats the only date i can find anywhere on the system (its on the solenoid under the bonnet. Was running bad on gas but changed the purge control valve, new battery, new sparks, just had the gas serviced and found a sticky solenoid and now runs fantastic on LPG...........Although i keep now getting 2 OBDII codes for high fuel trim add on both bank 1 and 2, run a few tests and on petrol, both short and long term seem to be reading nice, but on LPG i am getting a large negative = short term averaging -8 and long term trims averaging -18 somtimes -24 so obviously setting off the EML light, cars still runs great but i would like to get them trims down abit as its running far too lean i think....I am new to all this lpg and fuel trims stuff but have been doing a little research but please talk to me as if i am dumb haha i am thinking that maybe, just maybe because i have put on normal sparks, that its not igniting enough to burn all of the gas hence the running lean but i just don't know

Now i would like to log into the ecu of the LPG and check things but due to the age of my system no one has any software that will communicate with it and they haven't told me what the system it even is...its a very old Zavoli system 8 pin plug but only 4 pins used, diagnostics plug is all still there attached but it just says Zavoli Alisei 6-8-10 cylinder on it, nothing else anywhere on the ecu so i was wondering if anyone knew where i could possibly get a downloadable version of the software for the very early zavoli systems (pre 2006) i have searched high and low but can't find anything anywhere!

Any help and advice would be great as like i said i am completely new to these lpg systems and V8 bmw's etc i am quite savvy minded when it comes to mechanics, just don't ask me to change a gear box, not quite that good!

Brian_H
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#2 Post by Brian_H » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:00 pm


MartinM
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#3 Post by MartinM » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:20 pm

Thank you Brian although i think my system is pre N ....... I have been told that Alisei N won't communicate but i will give it another go, thank you

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#4 Post by LPGC » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:16 pm

It won't be pre-N, you just need an old version of Zavoli software as Bri says.
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#5 Post by MartinM » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:52 pm

ok, thank you, i will give it ago!

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#6 Post by Brian_H » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:46 pm

It could also be the lead - Few things to be aware of there

Different manufacturers may use the same connector, but with pins swapped about. Some share the same pinout as others, but we have no idea what lead you have?

Drivers for usb leads are worth checking - Both that they are installed (windows update will sometimes work, but usually not, or can install drivers that appear ok but don't actually work).

Check the com port assigned to the lead (usb leads again, you can change this from windows device manager, set to the lowest available port and keep under com4).

Few more sources for you to try

Zavoli Alisei-N V6.05 (should be on the other link I gave before)
https://tinleytech.co.uk/lpg-software/sgis/

Various as listed below are available from the site linked to by Tinley above - https://projekt-tech.com/diagnostic-programs-pm-23.html
Alisei 6.0.7.0 IC
Alisei N 6.0.5.0 IC
Alisei N 4.9.3I D
Alisei N
Alisei N ver 3
Alisei N ver 1
Regal (E)
Regal
Zavoli návod k použití FR.pdf
Zavoli Alisei Direct

Few other bits I've got can be found here (hopefully this link will work, if not and you can't get the above to sort it let me know by a pm what your email address is and will send to you another way)
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AigNPuwBlwA-h5gFVPICVidVkUrZbA

Side note on your original post - Plugs should be fine with the normal plugs, don't put the lpg ones in if there are any specified. It may be a tuning issue, or may be a vapouriser issue causing your trims (I think - Simon can confirm for sure on this, that if your seeing negative trims, its running too rich, suggesting either your map is too rich and the petrol ecu is trying to correct it, or your getting gas into the intake from somewhere other than where it should be coming from - leaking injectors one possibility, leaking vapouriser another - do you find its difficult to start when its been running and stopped for a short time?)

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#7 Post by LPGC » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:13 am

As Bri says again.

Could also be warn injectors, dud pressure sensor, dud temp sensor(s).

On many BMW 4.4 V8s the crankcase vent pipe at the rear of the engine turns to mush (ethanol in more more modern petrol does that to early vent pipes), when this happens it usually gives positive fuel trims due to the engine getting extra air from the leaky pipe via the PCV valve (as though you were running the engine with the oil filler cap removed) but depending on how the over-run section of the LPG map was set up before 'mush' the effect can show up more on one fuel (say LPG) than the other (say petrol).
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#8 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:46 am

Thank you everyone for your replies, really helpful.....................getting slightly confused already but i am slowly working this stuff out.

I have taken a few photos to show you what i have in the car under the bonnet, perhaps it might shed some light or clear up any uncertainties! more pictures to follow
Attachments
20190415_110524.jpg
serial numbers on the side but don't know if they mean anything
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20190415_110501.jpg
vapouriser, can't see a make on it though
20190415_110501.jpg (2.24 MiB) Viewed 90 times
20190415_110405.jpg
Standard switch over i take it
20190415_110405.jpg (2.53 MiB) Viewed 90 times

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#9 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 am

few more pics of setup
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20190415_110641.jpg
Plug!!!!!!!
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20190415_110547.jpg
maf sensor i think
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20190415_110536.jpg
filters and front solenoid
20190415_110536.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 90 times

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#10 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:51 am

This is the ecu..............just about read the numbers on the rear and the last letter is a "C".........Not sure if this means anything but i have read somewhere that if it states a B on the end then its an N system so am i right in thinking, this isn't?
Attachments
20190415_111113.jpg
rear of ecu
20190415_111113.jpg (2.23 MiB) Viewed 90 times
20190415_110751.jpg
top pic of ecu
20190415_110751.jpg (2.04 MiB) Viewed 90 times

MartinM
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#11 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:58 am

Also in reply to Brian H.....................YES sometimes it does take an extra second or 2 to start!!!!!! I always thought that was because there may be gas still in the cylinders or is that just a daft thought! .............i only thought that as the car always starts on petrol and will only switch over once the coolant reaches 30 degrees and the revs go above 1400 rpm, so with the constant swapping of fuels, i just assumed that was why! Wrong again i guess aha!

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#12 Post by Brian_H » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:30 pm

Its a guess, but try switching it to petrol shortly before you stop it and see if that stops it. Alternatively if you have the software working, keep an eye on the pressure reading when its not running on gas - should remain pretty constant, but I'd suspect its dropping slowly, indicating its leaking somewhere - most likely into the manifold causing it to be "flooded" with gas when it tries to start, hence it doesn't start till its cleared enough of the manifold contents to have enough air (its not really flooded in the sense of a petrol engine flooding, but more that its full of fuel with no air mixed, as the propane is heavier so will sink to the inlets with no flow through the manifold).

Theres only really two places it can leak from in that case - either the injectors themselves (as Simon mentioned above maybe worn) or the vacuum line that links from the vapouriser to the manifold. Not seen that vapouriser your photos show before, but at a guess thats the hose shown cable tied to the cables. If you can remove that and check for leaking gas there, that might give you an answer (this would also cause the trims to run negative as excess gas is being supplied to the engine). Equally you could perform the same test on the injectors by removing the hose going to the manifold and checking if anything is coming out of the injector outlet. A piece of hose connected to what you want to check with the other end in a bit of water would tell you if you have a leak if your not sure. Best if you have the diagnostics working to see for the pressure setting first though (And if its a suspected dud sensor, the only way you can see for sure whats being read is with the diagnostics anyway)

I would guess (and it is a guess without checking further) that its B or later that would be Alisei N. Simon best to confirm that. Though C probably wants an earlier version of the software (maybe one of the 4.x versions) than a later one would.

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#13 Post by LPGC » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:06 pm

Before the usual type LPG systems we fit now there were systems which looked almost identical but didn't work as a slave to the petrol system, instead they worked as a stand-alone fuel system and had to be directly connected to lambda if there was going to be any sort of closed loop functionality when running on gas. Sequential systems are N regardless of suffix after AEB2568, early none sequential systems (not around for long) were C type. C type only did 4 cylinders but to run extra cylinders from one ECU you'd fit a separate LPG injector driver box / separate emulation for the petrol injectors.

The ECU says sequential on the front - that alone should mean it's not a pre-N (C) system. Early N systems just had AEB2568 on the back, then there were B, C, D suffix (board updates) then later updates had E suffix but on most of those the E suffix is omitted so like early N they again just read AEB2568 on the back. Just can't make out all the writing on the back of your ECU.

Above I use the term 'sequential' generously because the way the boards work up to at least C suffix don't fully meet the common definition of truly sequential... and problems can arise from fitting none truly sequential ECUs on modern truly sequential engines. Then again I see problems with later AEB boards too (seems in trying to make them truly sequential they messed up some of the other basics that earlier ECUs got right). But on your early X5 with none Valvetronic BMW V8 the ECU you have or any of the N ECU's should be fine (If it were a V6 maybe not).

Yes the vac pipe will be the narrow one cable running with wiring, can find the vac pipes where they attach to reducer(s) anyway and could always pull the pipe off at the reducer end.
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MartinM
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#14 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:47 pm

Right, thank you people............i will give all of this a go in the coming days and get back to you if i can't find any answers myself. You've been great with info, so much better than my local lpg garages, they all seem alittle reserved when it comes to giving out info, i guess because it will do them out of business. but thank you again. i have learnt so much in just a few comments!

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#15 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:55 pm

Just a little more info i didn't mention before. I have an ELM OBDII scanner which can monitor pressure and when runningon petrol and gas it keeps a steady 24.5 on the meter...............Also my injectors are matrix ones i think, i think thats what people call them. i haven't taken off my engine cover but these are identical!
Attachments
zavoliinjectoprs.jpg
2 of these side by side
zavoliinjectoprs.jpg (93.29 KiB) Viewed 54 times

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#16 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:05 pm

Right, last one for a bit.........really dumb question now, if i do find a leak in that pipe you have mentioned, what would be best way to fix it? is it linked to the gas system or is it going to be something on the car itself? having a blonde moment and can't get my head around how i would fix this if i find a leak!?

remember, speak to me as if i am dumb, i understand better haha.

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#17 Post by Brian_H » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:30 pm

You can't see the gas pressure via obd - you will be able to see manifold pressure, but not the gas pressure (as its got nothing to connect the two systems). The gas ecu via the diagnostics software will tell you (on that side of things, what lead are you using? Don't assume that just because the plug fits that its the right lead!)

If there is gas leaking up the pipe, you'd need either a rebuild kit for the reducer, or a new reducer (doesn't have to be the same reducer, but you would want access to the software as a minimum so you could set the pressure on it, and potentially recalibrate it).

Equally if the injectors are leaking, you'd either replace or repair them. If replacing then you need some that your ECU will be compatible with.

But identify which if either of them is at fault (as it might be something else) before you worry too much about that.

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#18 Post by MartinM » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:19 pm

Thank you again brian, i will have aloo at everything and get back to you.

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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#19 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:14 pm

The injectors you have are nigh on bulletproof so a leaking injector is pretty unlikely unless they've done 250,000 miles or so. A slight leak from the reducer so gas is coming out of it into the inlet manifold via the vacuum connection is a distinct possibility though.
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Re: Old Zavoli System, Need a little help please

#20 Post by Brian_H » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:07 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:14 pm
The injectors you have are nigh on bulletproof so a leaking injector is pretty unlikely unless they've done 250,000 miles or so. A slight leak from the reducer so gas is coming out of it into the inlet manifold via the vacuum connection is a distinct possibility though.
And more likely if its managed to get too cold as well, so while your under there when the engine is warm check its getting reasonably hot - it should be close to the coolant temperature. If they aren't kept from freezing the rubber is more likely to perish in a shorter time than expected.

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