ECOTEC MANCHESTER

[Tubbs]

Personally I have my conversions inspected by the UKLPGA inspector on a fairly regular basis. I think that's more to do with geographical location to Evesham. I've never had to rectify anything. So would presume they are reasonably happy with my work.
Point I'm making is they do regular inspections. Have told all their members to keep good records of the owners. Im sure they will be able to see a flurry of activity from one or two particular installers above what is deemed as normal. I have noticed if I put two cars a day through one of them tends to get inspected.

[LPGC]

When I wrote about the guy asking me to register installs 'because his usual guy wasn't able to at the moment' I was expecting someone to suggest that UKLPG might have kicked the person registering his installs out of the trade body and I was right! Still jumping to their defence? I don't think 'his guy' was kicked, I know of another supplier who might offer the facility and might have moved premises, they might have suspended registering vehicles until their new premises were approved by UKLPG... as opposed to being kicked out.

Even if that person was kicked out, the person wanting the registration will simply phone someone else up to register his installs for him. Picture the situation... let's take a group of installers who know each other, a few of the group are members of UKLPG and will accept payment for registering installs over the phone. If one of these few in the group get kicked out of UKLPG (still unlikely and even if it happens it will probably take a long time, years?) they simply phone the next guy. When the number of installers in the group with UKLPG starts to run too low, one of the other installers becomes a member and the phone registration continues. If it costs the installer who wants to be a member a few quid to do so, everyone can chip in eh?

Has anyone else noticed a rapid increase in the number of installers over the last few years? Many from oversees? Many whom know each other? Many of which are offering UKLPG registered installs?

All the time I have been bringing this subject up I have been ridiculed and UKLPG members have claimed dis-belief. Now we have other people, UKLPG members, who have said the same, and some people are still trying to say this is only happening on a small scale... If you don't believe it how can it be proven to you? The people that have their installs registered on the database by phoning a UKLPG member won't admit to it, that would be shooting themselves in the foot. The UKLPG members who accept payment for registering vehicles on the database blind won't admit to it, that would put a stop to their nice little side earner and to do so publicly on this forum would have to mean UKLPG kicked them out even by UKLPG's standards. Installers who know they could just call someone up to register their installs but don't, like myself, won't usually admit to it because they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot in case they want to use the facility in the future. So when someone talks about the situation, the only people who speak up are people who want to defend UKLPG, usually UKLPG members because UKLPG members have a vested interest in protecting UKLPG as a sales pitch. If people use their common sense they can see how many installers are registered with UKLPG and compare that to how many installers seem to offer UKLPG registered installs. Then ask themselves if all the vehicles that the latter convert are ever seen by a UKLPG member for a proper check to be done, or if it's just done on the phone. Then ask themselves how these people get away with it. The answer is because COP11 is easy to conform with, so even if checks are done on the vehicles registered over the phone there is unlikely to be anything found wrong with the install, and because UKLPG, as a profit making organisation, have no financial incentive in turning down registrations. UKLPG always have plenty of people ready to jump to their defence because by defending UKLPG those people are effectively defending themselves (have your install done by us because we're UKLPG registered), and nobody else speaks up, so what incentive does UKLPG have to change the system?

I would far rather see a regulatory system similar to in Turkey where an install is inspected by an independent body rather than it being self certified by the installer, particularly as it appears that the system is virtually wide open and often abused.

I think you will find that some of those complaining about the current UKLPG system are members. When someone does the job properly and follows the rules, they are going to be slightly miffed when it can be shown that others are finding a way around it. Something that wouldn't happen if the inspection was done by an independent body.

Gilbert, I agree with the independant body idea but let me be more specific. UKLPG are supposed to be an independant body but they fail because they inspect so few vehicles themselves and allow installers to certify their own (and other installers) work. We already have a countrywide set of independant vehicle inspectors - MOT garages!

Actually I don't find many UKLPG members mentioning the shortfalls of the system at all. They never seem miffed about others finding their way around the 'system', because they don't usually admit that it happens. I agree on the independant inspection.

My workshop is at home but with space for loads of vehicles in both a big yard / big garage with more space than most garages. I don't know if I'd be able to even be a member of UKLPG, but that is irrelevant to me, because I would not want to join an organisation that is so full of failings, spouts so much mis-information and is full of it's own hype... If someone tells me they're a member I don't think 'ahh well you must know what you're doing then' because their work probably won't make me think that, but if they mention any of the words UKLPG / safety / quality in the same sentence I know they're spouting the same old cr*p. I would rather stay outside the organisation and 'tell it how it is' than tow the UKLPG line and lie to people about UKLPG being a positive.

Simon
Lpgc

[linsdav8284]

[Why would we ever look to turkey for how to regulate lpg installation ? ---- Absolute madness.
We should be looking to proper advanced European countries as to the regulation of lpg installation and servicing.

Snoozy- Let me educate you a little.Turkey has the highest percentage of autogas vehicles in the world. Some 37% of passenger cars run on autogas, and autogas consumption now exceeds petrol consumption. As of the end of 2010, there were 8,500 autogas fueling stations around the country and market growth has been supported by a network of 1,000 licensed conversion installers.
Currently, an average of 50,000 new generation cars are sold per month.


Re your reluctance to learn from "backward " countries like Turkey , we should learn from whatever source is better than our own - and there is no doubt that the regulatory system is flawed in the UK. The good thing about the Turkish system is that it is government controlled and carried out by one singleton government agency. Every single installation has to be inspected by this agency and if you are caught without registration then the car is impounded and you face court action.

[linsdav8284]

yes gilbert and my car has "made in Germany" under the bonnet. What's wrong with a successful, reputable company like BMW having manufacturing facilities abroad? I would be confident in expecting BMW quality control in any country to be at a much higher level than Beko or any such Turkish company.

Snoozy- What is this rubbish you are spouting about Beko - we are talking about LPG are we not? With regard to UKLPG approved status , I do not have the same confidence as you have.As a fellow amateur and mere consumer just like yourself let me tell you about my first experience of an LPG installation ( the 1st of 4 ) . It was undertaken by a UKLPG approved installer who made an absolute hash of the job. So much so that following an independent inspection (commissioned on the advice of my insurers) I made a complaint to the UKLPG office . It turned out that the installer was comparatively inexperienced in autogas installation and later in the year was removed from the approved list of installers following more complaints.
I know many gas engineers who removed themselves from CORGI because of the flaws in its regulatory system ( AND because of the high fees). Just because an engineer was CORGI approved didnt mean he/she was better than one who was not approved. I think the same applies to UKLPG.It does not guarantee a quality installation being done - I am speaking from 2 experiences.

[SnoozyBMW]

It is not rubbish that a turkish company such as beko produces an inferior product that is dangerous:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14025550

Or that turkey has one of the most corrupt governments in the world:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/27/news/ec ... ocks-lira/

In this regard it is irrelevant what percentage of vehicles run on lpg in turkey. How many uk consumers would choose a turkish lpg system for their car ? Not many i would guess , well maybe just a small number of cheapskates who are enthused with budget solutions and cutting corners.

[Speedy999]

I agree with linsdav8284 that you can get UK LPG approved installers that either dont have a clue or are hell bent on cutting every short corner they can to get install done as quick as they can.

Many of the experienced professional contributors on here have posted examples on here of UKLPG approved installs that have been total bodge job.

And my install is nearly 4 years old and not a single problem in 40,000 miles. Gilbertd you imply this was luck, yet I went with a uklpg specialist on the basis of my checking through details and the advice of my insurers.

Gilbertd, is just trying to point out that it is possible to get a shoddy job done and still be on the UK LPG industry.

The current alternative to uklpg is no regulation (which I suspect the diyers are in favour of) This would be a step backwards.

No one on here suggested "no regulation" and as an active DIYer, I myself take my conversions to a reputable UKLPG registered firm to inspect. I pay for a decent amount of money for this to be done.

I think I am right in believing uklpg have a panel of inspectors who randomly select vehicles for independent verification of standards being met, as I was warned my car may have this. I feel this is moving toward a fairly robust system but there is certainly room for improvement on the basis of some of the previous posts allegations.

There is plenty of room for improvement !!

It is not rubbish that a turkish company such as beko produces an inferior product that is dangerous ......

SnoozyBMW, linsdav8284 can you guys call a truce now please.

[indyjukebox]

yes gilbert and my car has "made in Germany" under the bonnet. What's wrong with a successful, reputable company like BMW having manufacturing facilities abroad? I would be confident in expecting BMW quality control in any country to be at a much higher level than Beko or any such Turkish company.

And my install is nearly 4 years old and not a single problem in 40,000 miles. Gilbertd you imply this was luck, yet I went with a uklpg specialist on the basis of my checking through details and the advice of my insurers.

I never had any of the problems with the conversion or hassles with my insurers ever. But as discussed I am on the other side of the regulatory fence, with an approved uklpg installer. The current alternative to uklpg is no regulation (which I suspect the diyers are in favour of) This would be a step backwards. I think I am right in believing uklpg have a panel of inspectors who randomly select vehicles for independent verification of standards being met, as I was warned my car may have this. I feel this is moving toward a fairly robust system but there is certainly room for improvement on the basis of some of the previous posts allegations.

I think you are bit misguided here. BMW have had their fair share of problems which they have unsuccessfully tried to cover up. Swirl flaps in diesel engines self destructing, but BMW not accepting this is a problem to the extent that a lot of users fit blanking plates to avoid this expensive catastrophe. 19 inch alloys cracking, but BMW putting the blame on users till watchdog reported this as an issue. Hundreds of BMWs being stolen with a very easy hack, BMW refused to accept blame till this was again reported on national TV. Eventually they have accepted blame and issued a patch, but it took more than 18 months before BMW would even accept there was an issue. What about the Nikasil issue?

At least Beko seemed to accept their fault quickly and issue a fix/recall, IIRC. And that was one issue compared to the numerous issues above.

I owned from new a E92 335i which was in retrospect a poor car. Terrible ride, poor quality of build and I too had the cracked alloy issue which unfortunately I had to pay out of my pocket to sort. BMW dealers are generally terrible except for routine servicing. Compare that to say Lexus (boring cars), but the dealers treat you with the respect you deserve when you have spent in excess of 40k on a car. Prior to that I had a E46 330Ci, which was a reasonable car.

Back to the issue of LPG. Unlike you, I didnt go with my insurance company recommendations. After all what would those people know about LPG other than how to rob you ever year. You also say that you checked through details. What do you mean?

In my case I was insistent that my manifold be removed to install the lpg nozzles. I did not feel that drilling in situ would provide the accuracy required. None of the UKLPG installers I spoke to would remove the manifold and I decided not to use them. After all why would I want drill shavings inside my engine? I finally went to Tubbs on this forum, who was quite clear that he would not be able to do a good enough job without removing the manifold. He also gave me a choice of where I could have my filler instaled unlike ceratin UKLPG installers who were insistent on drilling into my bodywork. I therefore travelled 180 miles (one way) to him to have my car LPG'd.

I too am at 40k post installation have not had any issues to date. Well I had a sigle failed injector, which Tubbs posted out to me FOC. I suspect very few of the UKLPG installers would go that distance to help their customer. They may, but certainly the ones I spoke to wouldnt.

I therefore based my choice of installer based on technical aspects rather than what my insurance company said. Or what piece of paper they had from UKLPG for an annual subscription cost. I certainly do not think that a subscription to UKLPG or Corgi makes anyone a specialist as you claim. Not to upset any on the UKLPG installers on this site, but this is just my experience.

Lastly you talk about advanced European countries. Lets take the UK for example. Highest rate of teenage pregnancies, terrible rates of STI's amongst our young people. Why do I use those 2 examples. Because health data is often a very good indicator of economic advancement. We also spend less than our neighbours on health per GDP.

I certainly have no interest in Turkey at all, but you have a very elitist view on things and I am certain that that sort of view has inevitably led to ruin from many examples in the past. If a system works well in a country, then we should learn from that system, rather than be snooty just because we are a so called advanced nation.

[NigelD]

yes gilbert and my car has "made in Germany" under the bonnet. What's wrong with a successful, reputable company like BMW having manufacturing facilities abroad? I would be confident in expecting BMW quality control in any country to be at a much higher level than Beko or any such Turkish company.

And my install is nearly 4 years old and not a single problem in 40,000 miles. Gilbertd you imply this was luck, yet I went with a uklpg specialist on the basis of my checking through details and the advice of my insurers.

I never had any of the problems with the conversion or hassles with my insurers ever. But as discussed I am on the other side of the regulatory fence, with an approved uklpg installer. The current alternative to uklpg is no regulation (which I suspect the diyers are in favour of) This would be a step backwards. I think I am right in believing uklpg have a panel of inspectors who randomly select vehicles for independent verification of standards being met, as I was warned my car may have this. I feel this is moving toward a fairly robust system but there is certainly room for improvement on the basis of some of the previous posts allegations.

I think you are bit misguided here. BMW have had their fair share of problems which they have unsuccessfully tried to cover up. Swirl flaps in diesel engines self destructing, but BMW not accepting this is a problem to the extent that a lot of users fit blanking plates to avoid this expensive catastrophe. 19 inch alloys cracking, but BMW putting the blame on users till watchdog reported this as an issue. Hundreds of BMWs being stolen with a very easy hack, BMW refused to accept blame till this was again reported on national TV. Eventually they have accepted blame and issued a patch, but it took more than 18 months before BMW would even accept there was an issue. What about the Nikasil issue?

At least Beko seemed to accept their fault quickly and issue a fix/recall, IIRC. And that was one issue compared to the numerous issues above.

I owned from new a E92 335i which was in retrospect a poor car. Terrible ride, poor quality of build and I too had the cracked alloy issue which unfortunately I had to pay out of my pocket to sort. BMW dealers are generally terrible except for routine servicing. Compare that to say Lexus (boring cars), but the dealers treat you with the respect you deserve when you have spent in excess of 40k on a car. Prior to that I had a E46 330Ci, which was a reasonable car.

Back to the issue of LPG. Unlike you, I didnt go with my insurance company recommendations. After all what would those people know about LPG other than how to rob you ever year. You also say that you checked through details. What do you mean?

In my case I was insistent that my manifold be removed to install the lpg nozzles. I did not feel that drilling in situ would provide the accuracy required. None of the UKLPG installers I spoke to would remove the manifold and I decided not to use them. After all why would I want drill shavings inside my engine? I finally went to Tubbs on this forum, who was quite clear that he would not be able to do a good enough job without removing the manifold. He also gave me a choice of where I could have my filler instaled unlike ceratin UKLPG installers who were insistent on drilling into my bodywork. I therefore travelled 180 miles (one way) to him to have my car LPG'd.

I too am at 40k post installation have not had any issues to date. Well I had a sigle failed injector, which Tubbs posted out to me FOC. I suspect very few of the UKLPG installers would go that distance to help their customer. They may, but certainly the ones I spoke to wouldnt.

I therefore based my choice of installer based on technical aspects rather than what my insurance company said. Or what piece of paper they had from UKLPG for an annual subscription cost. I certainly do not think that a subscription to UKLPG or Corgi makes anyone a specialist as you claim. Not to upset any on the UKLPG installers on this site, but this is just my experience.

Lastly you talk about advanced European countries. Lets take the UK for example. Highest rate of teenage pregnancies, terrible rates of STI's amongst our young people. Why do I use those 2 examples. Because health data is often a very good indicator of economic advancement. We also spend less than our neighbours on health per GDP.

I certainly have no interest in Turkey at all, but you have a very elitist view on things and I am certain that that sort of view has inevitably led to ruin from many examples in the past. If a system works well in a country, then we should learn from that system, rather than be snooty just because we are a so called advanced nation.

Good post jukebox dude

[SnoozyBMW]

I can see why there are very few uklpg pro's on the board, as there is a general disregard for them from the diy lobby et al. I feel much of the disregard is cynical in its basis. It would help if uklpg represented themselves here.

I have my car serviced on the dot by bmw and my lpg installer, total number of issues I have had with my bmw (owned since almost new) have been zero, total number of issues with my lpg installer zero.

It is not elitist to look to the best countries to compare with, it is called competitive progression. Why look to second world countries burdened with corruption for how to set up lpg regulation?

As I work within the nhs I am aware of the inequalities and social deprivation - I write up more nhs presecriptions than I have ever done in the past 10 years, but economic output is measured via gdp per capita not by health provision.

[indyjukebox]

I can see why there are very few uklpg pro's on the board, as there is a general disregard for them from the diy lobby et al. I feel much of the disregard is cynical in its basis. It would help if uklpg represented themselves here.

I have my car serviced on the dot by bmw and my lpg installer, total number of issues I have had with my bmw (owned since almost new) have been zero, total number of issues with my lpg installer zero.

It is not elitist to look to the best countries to compare with, it is called competitive progression. Why look to second world countries burdened with corruption for how to set up lpg regulation?

As I work within the nhs I am aware of the inequalities and social deprivation - I write up more nhs presecriptions than I have ever done in the past 10 years, but economic output is measured via gdp per capita not by health provision.

Again you get the wrong end of the stick. There are plenty of lpg installers here who are on the UKLPG register. Just as there are non UKLPG installers. DIY'ers are a different category, they do it for their pleasure/entertainment. A piece of paper does not confirm specialist experience. For eg: as you seem to have nhs experience; a CCST in neurology confirms specialist training in the field. however a membership to The Association of British Neurologists(ABN) does not. the UKLPG register is not a CCST equivalent, it is an ABN membership equivalent. Which you can purchase for a fee!

You clearly have has a good experience. Thats reassuring to know. Who did you use? Have a read of this, the outcome from using a UKLPG approved installer:

http://www.lpginfo.co.uk/golpg.html

I have seen a few London based UKLPG approved installs which even to my non mechanical eye look dangerous. For eg LPG tubing containing volatile LPG hanging precariously close to the exhaust manifold. A ticking time bomb? Not that it matters because it was UKLPG approved. If all that matters to you is a piece of paper then, thats ok. But when it is a vessel I put my family and friends in, I want it to be as mechanically safe as possible, UKLPG approved or not; that is the point. Once we have a regulatory body that is similar to the nhs CCST equivalent and not profit driven as the UKLPG is, then I will truly be interested in it.

Economic output is measured via GDP per capita and hence if you look at my initial post, it mentions "we spend less per GDP than our neighbours". However markers of reproductive health, maternal mortality, infant mortality are all used as surrogate markers of economic progression/health. The World Health Organisation certainly do use such statistics as does Public Health England. Colonial rule was based on the presumption of racial/colour based superiority. You can see where that went. All I say is make no presumptions and stop calling other countries second world, unless you are so biased. In which case god help the patients from second world countries you write prescriptions out to.

[Gilbertd]

Snoozy, I think I know where you are coming from. It may be poles apart from my own viewpoint, but I think I do understand your point of view. You wanted a reliable, comfortable, prestige car so, believing the hype, you went for a BMW. Had you consulted Which and gone for the most reliable in the class, you'd be driving a Lexus, but, thankfully, you preferred something with a bit of style, or at least the image of style, and got what you did. The same goes for the LPG system. You wanted the car converting so again, you listened to the hype, took advice, and went to a UKLPG member for the conversion. From the discussion going on here by now you should have realised that there are good installers and not so good installers. While UKLPG membership is touted as the indication that will show you the difference, that isn't always the case.

You have been happy with the conversion, it does what you expected it to do. Having been done by a UKLPG registered installer it should comply with the Code of Practice so it is also safe. But is it as good as it could have been? Do you even know what system has been fitted? Do you care? Probably not, it works and does what it should. Was the manifold removed before the holes were drilled for the injector spuds? Maybe they were, maybe not. But even if it wasn't, no damage has been done. Have all of the components been installed in the optimum locations, again, maybe, maybe not. You've said you take the car into BMW to be serviced so you probably rarely open the bonnet but have you looked at the LPG installation? Is it as tidy as it could be? None of these things will stop it from working or make it unsafe but all are things that may point to it being a less than perfect install. I'm not saying that it is bad, it just may not be as good as it could be. Has it been calibrated accurately? Reset your trip computer and do a normal commute, or any other reasonable length journey that you would normally do, on petrol and see what the computer tells you the mpg for that journey was. Then reset it again and do the same journey on gas. If it has been set up correctly then the mpg figure should be exactly the same. If it isn't it means that the LPG system calibration isn't spot on and the petrol ECU is having to adjust to compensate. In your world, think of the petrol ECU as the eyes and the LPG ECU as the spectacles. The eyes still do the work but the spectacles correct for anomalies. The anomaly here is that the petrol ECU thinks it is firing petrol injectors but it isn't, it is firing LPG injectors that have different characteristics so need a different pulse duration. So, if the LPG system has been programmed correctly, the petrol injector pulse duration, and hence the calculated mpg figure, will be identical. Even if it is out, it won't be by much or it would cause the petrol ECU to realise something isn't right and bring on the Check Engine light which I'm sure it doesn't.

By saying that we have a completely different outlook, I'm typing this while waiting for some epoxy resin to cure. The central locking on my recently purchased Range Rover (the second in my fleet) didn't work on the passenger door. So I have a choice. I could take it into my local Land Rover dealer and be charged £400 for a new door lock mechanism plus a couple of hours labour to fit it. I could buy a second-hand one from eBay, which may work for a little while before failing in exactly the same manner, and fit it myself. Or, I could do as I'm doing now, dismantle the door to get the mechanism out, strip it down and repair the stripped splines with epoxy resin. You, I suspect, would go for the first option but only if you were stupid enough to buy something with the reliability record of a Range Rover in the first place! While the cost is one aspect, I enjoy doing it and knowing I have done it properly, rather than entrusting it to someone else.

On a completely different topic, when you first mentioned that you were an optometrist, I was under the impression that this was just what the Yanks call an optician. However, having now looked it up, I notice that this isn't the case. Does this mean that a lot of optometrists are doing themselves down by referring to themselves as opticians? From what I can make out, and optician is a man who makes lenses but an optometrist is someone that does eye examinations. Even Spec Savers do eye examinations!

[SnoozyBMW]

Yes gilbert as we discussed a few years back my lpg system is Versus http://www.versusgas.com/ Based on AEB ecu algorithms modified by Versus.

And I have to admit I have been thoroughly impressed with Versus and my installer. The installation is neat as I look at it and BMW themselves have been quietly impressed though reserve any official judgement. I achieve 31 mpg with lpg which is down from 35mpg official combined for petrol, my experience with petrol was more like 33mpg. So 6% fall in economy with Versus lpg system. No engine light ever appeared and the engine light works because I see it initialise when I start the car.

Ah the old argument of Optician vs Optometrist. The USA public are much more alert to the difference, sadly in the UK the public often use the blanket term Optician (much to the glee of the dispensers and contact lens fitters - both of which like to shorten their name to optician in order to mislead the public into believing they also examine eyes.) I have heard contact lens fitters tell people they no longer carry out eye exams as they specialise in contact lenses - err its illegal for a contact lens fitter or disp optician to carry out an eye exam! The contact lens fitters and disp opticians have no formal university training and have never studied optometry in their lives. (Contact lens fitter are disp opticians with a diploma in contact lenses)

This is why the system is likely to become doctor of optometry in the uk, as in the usa, to get rid of this misconception. At the moment UK Optometrists must gain their doctor of optometry as a top up qualification (which I am in year 4 of doing)

Oh wow we are diverging but we are still discussing the regulation and misrepresentation of professions.

[rossko]

[UKLPG installer mermbership] Which you can purchase for a fee!

No you can't.

not profit driven as the UKLPG is

What makes you think that?

[linsdav8284]

It is not elitist to look to the best countries to compare with, it is called competitive progression. Why look to second world countries burdened with corruption for how to set up lpg regulation?

"It is not elitist to look to the best countries to compare with, it is called competitive progression. Why look to second world countries burdened with corruption for how to set up lpg regulation? ".

Snoozy-I am very mindful of Speedy999's request. If you are not being elitist then you most certainly are being iinaccurate and blinkered . In addition to the facts and figures I gave re why we could learn from the autogas regulatory system in Turkey let me question the comments made by you above. Are you seriously suggesting that Turkey is a second world country? Actually, it's economy is in a far better state than that of the UK. For your education, Turkey is regarded as a first world economy. The country is among the world's leading producers of agricultural products; textiles; motor vehicles, ships and other transportation equipment; construction materials; consumer electronics and home appliances.While many economies, including the UK, have been unable to recover from the recent global financial recession, the Turkish economy expanded by 9.2% in 2010, and 8.5 percent in 2011, thus standing out as the fastest growing economy in Europe!!
As regards your comment re corruption - yes Turkey is corrupt. However there are very few countries which do not have a problem with corruption. Let us look at the UK - politicians and the expenses scandal /bankers /widespread tax evasion and tax avoidance/stockmarket and insider trading/ NHS cover ups ?
Make no mistake - the UK would do well to learn from whatever country it can

[SnoozyBMW]

linsdav8284 I have no further comment for you, if you believe turkey is a first world economy then fine, GDP data and human rights abuses would dictate otherwise. Take a look at wiki, their gdp is 52% of the eu average.

You should purchase a Turkish lpg system for your hyundai and install it yourself, it should be a good match, please do stop by to let us know how you got on.

I do feel sorry for the uk lpg installers having to deal with people like this

[linsdav8284]

linsdav8284 I have no further comment for you, if you believe turkey is a first world economy then fine, GDP data and human rights abuses would dictate otherwise. Take a look at wiki, their gdp is 52% of the eu average.

You should purchase a Turkish lpg system for your hyundai and install it yourself, it should be a good match, please do stop by to let us know how you got on.

I do feel sorry for the uk lpg installers having to deal with people like this

Snoozy -What on earth has human rights abuses got to do whether a country is a first world economy or not? If we accept your line of argument then China, USA, Russia, South Africa are not first world economies because they have poor human rights records also? Do you understand what the term means?
My comments re Turkey being a 1st world economy are quoted directly from World Bank and IMF annual reports. You have been found to be full of bluster, short on facts and clearly unable to substantiate your wildly inaccurate statements. Your only outlet is to revert back to childish sarcasm. God help the NHS !

[indyjukebox]

[UKLPG installer mermbership] Which you can purchase for a fee!

No you can't.

not profit driven as the UKLPG is

What makes you think that?

Please do not cut and paste bits out of my post to make things up. If you were to spend a moment to correctly read my post, you would realise that I was directly referring to the ABN and a fee for membership. With regards to UKLPG, do you not pay a fee to be added onto the register? If not, then I apologise for my mistake.

In response to your second question, let me put it back to you. What makes you think it is not profit driven?

I am not an installer, I have very mild DIY interests, if any at all. I have one LPG converted car personally. I have been in/seen/lifted the hood of a few friend's who have had UKLPG approved conversions. One of them was by Gastech in Essex? which was a good neat conversion. The others were scary to my eyes.

Personally, I rang 4 UKLPG approved converters, who talked to me as though I was a woman with no understanding of mechanics. I then called Tubbs who spoke to me like a human being. That is all I needed, to be able to talk through the installation to ensure I was satisfied. The 4 so called UKLPG approved installers were most unhelpful with a sense of superiority that was quite distasteful.

For clarity, I did not have any communication with you/your outfit. And I am not a woman!

[rossko]

Well, I did re-read and it still says the same to me; no matter, that is my mistake and was not your intent.

It's certainly worth clarifying monies, this in general and not in response to any individuals points
UKLPG charge £15 to place a car on the register, once in the vehicle lifetime. I have tried, but I cannot picture the robber-barons at UKLPG HQ chortling at the bulging till from this income.

It is worth highlighting that they get £15 whether it is a legitimate add by an installer, or some unscrupulous installer adding a car he's never even seen. I can't see any reason for UKLPG to encourage the unscrupulous activity. It's not even as though it generates an "extra" £15 - if the end user needs the registration, it makes no odds to UKLPG revenue in this regard whether its done properly or under the counter.

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UKLPG itself is an Association - a group of businesses acting in mutual self-interest. No gasps there I hope, after all everyone in business from BP to the lowliest one-man installer is acting in self-interest and for profit.
The main players and contributors are big business like BP and Calor, main concerns are industrial distribution and uses of LPG. Autogas side of UKLPG concern is small fry.
UKLPG is run as a business itself, it is not a charity. Its members expect it to be value for their money. There are no shareholders or owners, there are staff/premises/running costs etc. Accounts are available at Company House etc.
So far, so the same as the Guild of Master Bakers and so on.

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So to the small fry point of view; to become an Approved Installer (able to add cars to the register etc.) there is an approval process - paper exam, project work inspected, workshop equipment and office processes verified. Its not onerous, we are only talking about fuel conversion to good practices after all.
Then you pays your subs - now here there are hundreds of pounds involved, and the twirling moustachios at UKLPG HQ can be imagined.

Unfortunately to stuff the till with hundred pound notes, requires installers to join the Approval scheme. The best way therefore to stuff the till, is to police the car registration scheme. It is the end customers that demand the registration - as you can tell from this thread, unapproved installers regard it as devils spawn etc. and wouldn't touch it if they didn't have to.

Any approved installer unscrupulously registering his mates cars sight unseen, is threatening this approval scheme revenue stream and needs to have the boys sent around. Remember its not a case of generating "extra" £15, which would be coming in in any case, its a case of losing potential £hundreds because the unapproved installers are under customer pressure to provide registrations.
One might construct a fallacious argument that the robber-barons at UKLPG prefer to keep the one unscrupulous installer on the books for the sake of his subs. But its not blindingly perceptive to see that if he is booted out, UKLPG stand to make several lots of subs from those dozens (so we are told) unapproved installers clamouring for his under-the-counter registrations.

[linsdav8284]

very interesting and informative post Rosko. Do you think it would be better if there was a regulatory process along the lines of an installation inspection operated by the Dept of Transport or similar type body? I think it would be fair for the consumer to pay for the compulsory inspection and if the installation was found to be defective then the installer would have the responsibility of remedying the identified defects/flaws at his own expense. With a method such as this then the cowboys would soon be rooted out and consumers would have the benefit of knowing they have a safe and fit for purpose installation. Just a thought.

[indyjukebox]

So how much does annual membership cost? Which is the question, isnt it? Presumably that drives the want to obtain more subscriptions? the £15 to place a car on the register is hardly worth it, as you rightly say. Also is it truly the customers that demand registration? I would think it is a false sense of security (primarily driven by agencies like the UKLPG) plus demands made by insurance companies (now I wonder who drives them to make such demands, could it be alliances between insurance companies and the UKLPG).

Good post by linsdav. Presumably a central, non profit inspection or inspectorate would serve customers and decent legitimate installers better than the current version of the UKLPG. Plus it would drive better standards of installation across the country, would it not?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for regulation. But it needs to be robust, transparent and accountable to both the customer as well as the installer. The current UKLPG setup is none of this, in my opinion.