AC STAG 300 / Q box basic Jaguar Stype (fixed: correct map and fuel return, and i had bad catalysts. read conclusion)

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LPGC
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#21 Post by LPGC »

Yes there are 2 RPM correction tables, 1 per cylinder bank. But make sure you've told the software which LPG channels are on which cylinder bank...

During tip-in (when you initially put your foot down) conditions and during engine rpm acceleration conditions fuel trims may swing anyway... It is arguably more important to get fuel trims correct during constant engine load conditions (steady rpm) than during tip-in conditions. 2nd Gear quickly accelerating to 3500/4000rpm doesn't imply constant engine load. If you're in 2nd gear trying to maintain constant engine load it is likely that the only loads you'll be able to hold steady are low engine load conditions unless you're going up a very steep hill (or riding the brakes lol).

I would start by entering some base rpm correction settings that are equal on both banks ranging from around -3% at 500(five hundred)rpm to around +8% at 6000rpm. Better to calibrate at around 2000rpm than at 3500/4000 rpm because the multiplier makes more difference than RPM correction and at 2000RPM you can still see how fuel trims compare between running on petrol and running on LPG at most pinj points whilst holding a constant engine load. Make sure it stays running in closed loop mode when doing any fuel trims comparisons... fuel trim figures are meaningless if it is in open loop mode, to set up correct mixture for open loop compare lambda readings.

You will always be short of being able to address one aspect I'd ideally want to be able to compensate for on the Jag engine - the difference manifold pressure makes to effective petrol pressure (if petrol pressure remains the same in absolute terms then if manifold pressure rises effective petrol pressure is reduced. The petrol ECU knows to compensate for the effect of fuel pressure versus manifold pressure but the LPG ECU doesn't know that a given X millisecond long pulse of pinj doesn't always supply the engine with the same amount of fuel), because you can't dial in any vacuum compensation using the Stag ECU. But that is only a minor aspect and you should still be able to get good results. More in depth... for any given pulse length the amount of fuel petrol injectors would supply depends on fuel pressure versus manifold pressure. If we assume petrol pressure stays the same and is 4 bar absolute then if the manifold is at absolute vacuum (it never would be but it could reach as low as around 0.2bar) the pressure would be 4 (3.8) bar. But at full engine load when the manifold is at atmospheric pressure (1 bar) the 4 bar of fuel pressure becomes 3 bar relative to manifold pressure. To compare the difference in flow we do square root of 3.8 = 1.95, square root of 3 = 1.73, then we find the percentage difference between 1.73 and 1.95 which is around 16% (going up from 3 to 3.8 bar) or is around 18% going down from 3.8bar to 3 bar. On first consideration it may seem that there is some self compensation going on for difference in fuel pressure and to some extent there is... but without compensating for vacuum the tip-in mixture is likely to be further away from ideal than necessary and correction for RPM won't be as intuitive because for any given manifold pressure the engine will breathe a different amount of air depending on rpm (and breathe most air per induction stroke and therefore need most fuel to go with that air) at the engine's rpm torque peak.
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DariusVargas
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#22 Post by DariusVargas »

awesome, i understand. i will definitely do my best to calibrate de rpm correction and multiplier at different engine loads to compensate for the vacuum differences.

yes, the tip in fluctuations are unbalanced in my case. What i am trying to fix is the fact that one bank's fuel trim is over +20% while the other bank's fuel trim is only +4%. so im running lean on one bank when im pressing the pedal. And so, I did the hill test: i had the j gate in 2nd gear, and while climbing the hill, fuel trims were steady at the aforementioned unbalanced values. Then i hit the petrol button and they corrected to something rather balanced. (so petrol system works well).
you know what im yet to do? could i try running half engine on petrol, half on lpg when doing that? to see when and if that exagerrated +20%+ correction ceases to appear?

thing is, im also yet to figure out where is my second rpm corrections table. that might create the unbalance. so im uploading screenshots of my software and settings so you guys might be able to guide me on what button to press there. (also "number of cyl" is obviously selected as "6", but apparently the next setting: "no.of cyl./coil" is "3" ... is it ok?)

Many Thanks! i will input the rpm corrections when i find out the second table
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LPGC
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#23 Post by LPGC »

Ahh yes, your Stag ECU is an earlier Stag300 which doesn't have a separate RPM correction table for each cylinder bank.

Even so, you can still correct a situation where the gap between fuel trims gets progressively higher with rising engine load, instead of using RPM correction you dial in the percentage difference in Gas Controller Settings > Gas Injector Settings.. So for example if fuel trims on bank 1 are close to zero under medium/high engine loads but fuel trims for bank 2 are high positive, you could add (say) 5% to every injector that is on bank 2. Then recheck fuel trims across the full range of engine loads and don't forget the all-important mixture if/when the engine goes open loop at high engine loads... It would be no good correcting medium/high load mixture by dialling in positive injector corrections for bank 2 if the positive corrections made it too rich on bank 2 during open loop high engine load conditions.

Also before dialling in any relatively high correction factor for differences in fuel trims (or mixture in open loop conditions) between cylinder banks it is worth checking that the reason isn't because of an issue with the injectors themselves... The only real fix for dodgy injectors is to fix/replace the dodgy injectors, we don't try to compensate calibration for dodgy injectors. The simplest way to do that would be to swap the injector rails between cylinder banks to see if the fuel trim situation (trims currently go positive on bank2) is reversed (if trims then go positive on bank 1 it would mean the injectors that used to be on bank 2 flow less than those that were on bank 1).

May even find that there's an issue with just 1 individual (of the 6 individual) injectors, and the issue may not necessarily be with injector(s) on bank 2 under-fuelling, it could be with injector(s) on bank 1 over-fuelling. To see if an individual injector is flowing more/less than average switch each cylinder back to petrol in turn while watching the pinj figure... the figure should stay the same or change to close to the same figure whenever you switch a cylinder back to petrol, if switching any cylinder back to petrol makes more/less difference to average it could point to an issue with that injector.
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DariusVargas
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#24 Post by DariusVargas »

Hi! Im back!
I swapped the rails in between them, i didnt autocalibrate to avoid any software alteration.

Did the same hill test, to simulate more or less constant engine load, and the numbers havent changed sides. I have the same lean condition on bank 2. ( stft bnak 2 over +20%)

Petrol operation is fine.

I will try autocalibration after this rail swap to check for any software bugs, and i will repeat the hill test.

Would i be able to swap in between them the main two feed hoses that feed the rails? Should i atocalibrate after that?

Many many thanks. I cant wait till we figure it out.

LPGC
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#25 Post by LPGC »

Definitely no misfires on bank 2 when you put your foot down?

How many reducer(s) are fitted? What model reduce?

Can you describe the plumbing from the reducer(s) to the injector rails? Can you see any potential reason why there might be different pressure to the 2 rails? Definitely no sharply bent or crimped injector pipes?

Shouldn't normally be necessary to change calibration (or run autocal) after just swapping feed pipes but we'll wait for answers to the above questions before answering that one.
Full time LPG installer
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DariusVargas
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#26 Post by DariusVargas »

Hi!
Sorry i havent been online.
I will post the details in a second when i get home, but i did around 3000km and the situation actually got worse, which is a good thing, as i can see its having the same issues on petrol. I could have sworn petrol was absolutely fine, but i noticed:

bank 2 had a LTFT of +4% at idle
- and +15% STFT at the constant load 2500 - 3000rpm, pedal tip almost half the travel so i keep the closed loop operation and see how the fuel trims react.

i am looking for possible issues
what i have done so far:

-Pre cats O2 sensors are ok (Swapped in between them)
-No obvious vacuum leaks ( will listen again tomorrow with a hose and a funnel to my ear. Might spray a bit of propane too, to check for mixture modifications)
- exhaust leaks must be checked,
- camshaft sensor up to be replaced,
- i will test compression (hopefully i can do it on one bank only)
- injectors were professionally cleaned and tested 4000 km ago,
- imt manifold tuners & manifold itself have new gaskets (changed 4000km ago),

I suspect the injector orings or maybe a leak on the exhaust side.
Or maybe a valve not fully closing.

Will update soon

DariusVargas
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Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#27 Post by DariusVargas »

Hi! I will give an update as to what ive tested so far.

its still doing the fuel compensation (STFT +10%) on bank2, on petrol, at 2500-3000rpm, constant engine load (hill climbing for example).

i did a smoke leaks test, and the intake is ok
i will repeat the smoke test in the exhaust too (my smoke device broke down)

I also removed the crankcase breather and PCV. I plucked the intake holes and gave it a run.
Issue persists, so the PCV system is ok.

Did a compression test, injectors were cleaned 1 mth ago, swappend the precats lambdas in between them, and the full list is below:

- compression is good
- plugs and coils are good
- injectors are good
- no vaccum leaks in the intake
- camshaft sensor replaced
- both precat o2 sensors are good
- PCV works correctly

exhaust left to be tested

Please give me ideas on what else could create a lean condition on bank 2. I know you guys are good techs since LPG installing and calibrating is art and engineering.

Many thanks

LPGC
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#28 Post by LPGC »

What are both Ltft's when bank 2 goes positive Stft?

Vacuum leaks give high trims when the engine has most vacuum, so have most effect on trims at idle and very low engine load conditions.
Unmetered air on the air intake side before the throttle body can have the same effect or can have the opposite effect of increasing trims with increasing engine load (air intake).

I forget how many Mafs they have (1 for the engine or 1 per each of the 2 cylinder banks).
If they had 2 Mafs the problem could be one of the Mafs under-reading.
If they have 1 Maf then the petrol ECU assumes that half of the air flowing through the Maf goes to bank 1, the other half to bank 2. If conditions for both cylinder banks are exactly the same then indeed bank1 and bank2 will each get half of the total airflow. But if one bank flows less air than the other bank then we can expect trims on the bank flowing less air to be negative while trims on the bank flowing most air to be positive. If a cylinder bank flowed more than standard then it would also be capable of making more power than standard... and that is extremely unlikely to happen. So usually if we have ruled out fuelling, compression and ignition as being the cause of one bank having different trims to the other then we should look at air intake flow (and exhaust outlet flow) as being the cause... But rather than looking at why bank 2 flowed more than standard we'd be looking at why bank 1 flowed less than standard. Lots of things could affect that, including valve timing and exhaust restrictions (partial cat blockages). If you've got a partial cat blockage then it may not affect idle, the effect is similar to just fitting a very narrow pea shooter exhaust, but under increasing engine load the blockage restricts exhaust gas going out so the affected cylinder bank has back pressure which prevents new air entering cylinders on intake strokes.

I would run a lot more checks before reaching any conclusions. The difference in trims you're seeing (10%) is unusually high but have you compared pinj figures to confirm there's 10% difference in pinj's between bank1 and bank2? Some seemingly unusual readings can be due to unfamiliarity with how trims on particular vehicles with wide band fuel systems work. Some readings don't mean much in certain modes (for want of a better word), mode may depend on idle/off idle and whether the petrol ECU has seen all it's component tests passed (for example during component testing if the engine has variable valve timing on both banks the ECU may intentionally run one bank with different valve timing to the other.. so it can itself compare the difference in flow rates).
Full time LPG installer
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DariusVargas
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#29 Post by DariusVargas »

Hi Simon, as always, many thanks for the quick and generous reply.

If i reset the ecu by unplugging the battery and elaving it for a while, and then strating the car so i can have a fresh set of data, LTFT both stay at 0, and the STFT bank 2 is around +2 or 3 at idle, and + 10 at 2500 constant engine load. (Petrol)

If i run the car so the LTFT modify, the bank 2 LTFT becomes +2 or 3 at idle and around + 8 at the same engine load i was talking about ( in this case the STFT is around +5 on bank 2, and both LT and ST stay at 0 on bank 1)

So LFTT bank 1 + STFT bank 1 =0
And LTFt b2 + stft b2 = ~+3 at idle and ~+10 at that engine load.

I will post pics of my cats below

DariusVargas
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Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#30 Post by DariusVargas »

My catalysts
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DariusVargas
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Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#31 Post by DariusVargas »

Mesaage #3

Pinj modifications are visible. They confirm the obd2 readings. All 3 injectors on bank 2 are being equally enhanced.

If bank 1 is actually reducing injection due to bad timing/clogged exhaust etc, wouldnt that mean negative corrections on bank 1?
Or bank 1 runnging too rich errors?

Idle and 2500 rpm shouldn't imply the opening of the VVTs i guess, right?

Many many thanks Simon. May you have a good week

DariusVargas
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:47 pm

Re: AC STAG 300 low multiplier (fixed) but still possibly bad rails

#32 Post by DariusVargas »

hi, been a lot of time, just wanted to update:
First of all car still works excelent after 150000km on lpg with the fuel return and stag 300 isa/ q box basic (same plug, first ecu burned up and so i changed to qbox basic, its newer) Stag always helped me with suggestions, so if you are to install a lpg kit, i personally love Stag.
Second of all and most important i want to thank LPGC as without him, i wouldnt have known how to do the fuel return trick.
Third and to conclude, i ve been running catless for all this time. it was the catalitic converters that did the unequal fuel trims. Got rid of them, sensors still plugged in ofc, cars has minimal corrections. i can say 0%.
Oh i had to map it myself with the laptop but i like doing that so if anyone got a stag feel free to write here ill just past my map here so you can copy it and have a base.

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