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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 11:28 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
Brian_H wrote:
I'm not sure if Disco questions are allowed on rangerovers.pub?
Disco 2 uses the same running gear as a P38 so a 4.0 litre would have a ZF4HP22 and a 4.6 would have the ZF4HP24 so you can ask away. In saying that, I'm not sure we even have any gearbox experts on there, they are a bit too much of a black art and magic. Your best bet would be to give Ashcrofts a bell and ask them, they are the experts when it comes to LR gearboxes. See http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk ... boxes.html


Was thinking that might be the best option, but hoping to get a better idea of what might be happening to try and explain to them, I will put a post up there if we don't get any luck here

LPGC wrote:
Camaro seems determined to help, really full of spunk :lol:

What happens when it struggles to stay in 4th, Bri? Not just the torque converter locking / unlocking?

Simon


He does, Luckly theres a bit of a big puddle between us :lol:
Its the first automatic I've driven for any significent amount so i've no idea on what the torque convertor locking feels like? Last auto I owned was an Escort with a CVT box about 10 years ago! Driven a couple since but not recently and only short term

It feels almost like a misfire - jerky motion to it, I'll be out in it tomorrow see if i can get a better description of whats going on. Also put the Nano on it and see if it finds anything though I'd suspect not.

camaro wrote:
Lots of mentions of "governor valves" causing problems on those - one thread suggested holding it in second, and thrashing it for a while, to keep the revs nice and high - apparently this is meant to "clean" the valve - but a dirty valve is often just a symptom that you have more severe problems somewhere else in the box!


I'd suspect a dirty valve is possible - most of the other maintenance thats been done on it by the previous owner seems to have caused more problems than fixed overall, Slowly working though the remaining ones I've found and the new ones that have decided to happen now (door locks being the current bugbear issue)

Gilbertd wrote:
Dunno where you've found lots of mentions as they are normally nigh on bulletproof. Mine is at 329,600 miles and still on the original ZF4HP22 gearbox with no problems. Mine is ex-police and a guy I used to work with had previously been a fitter with the police. They loved the gearboxes on the P38 as they were so strong you could slam it into reverse at 70 mph if you wanted to stop very quickly without doing any damage.


Also good to show your passenger why they should be wearing a seatbelt after they peels themselves off the windscreen!

LPGC wrote:
Would think if it slips it points to a clutch problem, if it just doesn't want to stay in 4th but 4th works OK while it stays in that gear it points to a valve body type problem... unless it just doesn't like 4th because the engine isn't making enough torque so you have to put your foot down further to maintain speed (and didn't we think there was a problem with your engine)...

Doesn't seem to be slipping more like its engaged and not getting power from the engine (literally like a misfire just without the popping that usually accompanies it). Can't see that i'd get a misfire only at that sort of speed though? Its had 2 new exhaust sensors and a set of plug leads to correct the original misfire (and tightened up the spark plugs that were barely finger tight while we were there!)


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 7:36 am 
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Torque converter lock up feels like it's changed up into a 5th gear. Usually at around 40mph unless you are booting it, below that the gearbox is in 4th (top) but the TC is still allowing some slip so the revs are higher then it locks up and the revs drop. Confused the hell out of me with the first modern auto I owned as the book said it had a 4 speed yet if I pulled away and let it accelerate gently I could count the gearchanges and was convinced it had 5 gears.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:10 am
Posts: 104
Location: Belfast
Gilbertd wrote:
Dunno where you've found lots of mentions as they are normally nigh on bulletproof. Mine is at 329,600 miles and still on the original ZF4HP22 gearbox with no problems. Mine is ex-police and a guy I used to work with had previously been a fitter with the police. They loved the gearboxes on the P38 as they were so strong you could slam it into reverse at 70 mph if you wanted to stop very quickly without doing any damage.


It's even mentioned in Wikipedia! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_4HP22_transmission


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Brian_H wrote:
He does, Luckily theres a bit of a big puddle between us :lol:


Not of MY making... :roll: :mrgreen: :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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camaro wrote:
Brian_H wrote:
He does, Luckily theres a bit of a big puddle between us :lol:


Not of MY making... :roll: :mrgreen: :oops:

Puddle between you... and as memory serves a salty one.. if not made by you does that imply Bri made it... but what's that say about you since we're on the subject of filling boxes... I thought the term was 'big bears' not 'whales' but anyway, nearly time for a beer which may help rid my mind of the connotations.

I think Gilbert may pull you up on the P38 box point Camaro, unless he edits Wiki first

:lol:

Simon

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2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
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Last edited by LPGC on Sat May 06, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
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Location: Milton Keynes
Gilbertd wrote:
Torque converter lock up feels like it's changed up into a 5th gear. Usually at around 40mph unless you are booting it, below that the gearbox is in 4th (top) but the TC is still allowing some slip so the revs are higher then it locks up and the revs drop. Confused the hell out of me with the first modern auto I owned as the book said it had a 4 speed yet if I pulled away and let it accelerate gently I could count the gearchanges and was convinced it had 5 gears.


Useful to know - it looks like its a misfire on cylinder 2 (at least thats whats being logged) so doubt it is actually the gearbox causing it. Will have a further look tomorrow as its now thrown a lambda error on bank 2 as well, so will have to look at both issues by the looks of it. Its possible its rejoined wiring from the old lpg install that was on it thats causing errors, though I don't think thats the case. Would have had more of a look today but ended up changing exhaust box on someone elses car instead.


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
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LPGC wrote:
camaro wrote:
Brian_H wrote:
He does, Luckily theres a bit of a big puddle between us :lol:


Not of MY making... :roll: :mrgreen: :oops:

Puddle between you... and as memory serves a salty one.. and we're on the subject of filling boxes. Nearly time for a beer which may help rid my mind of the connotations.

I think Gilbert may pull you up on the P38 box point Camaro, unless he edits Wiki first

:lol:

Simon


You've put far too much thought into that! Technically the Irish sea is between all of us and Camaro as far as I know! :lol: 8) :?


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:17 pm 
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camaro wrote:
It's even mentioned in Wikipedia! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_4HP22_transmission

It is, for the 4HP22 as fitted to the Classic but not the 4HP22EH fitted to the P38 and Disco 2 (so the list in Wikipedia is wrong too....). The governor valve failure means it sticks in first when cold, a known problem that can be cured by flushing the fluid when doing a change that was corrected on the EH version. As the problem here is in 4th then there aren't any known faults that would cause that.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Yeh, the engine needs to work pretty much as it should before you can get much insight into autobox problems.

Guilty of putting too much thought into wording of my salty puddle post. The Irish sea is salty, confirmed by the amount of electricity it conducted to my body from my boat's engine / ignition system the other year (mentioned on forum), I know Camaro's at the other side of it... But, er, you looked at someone else's exhaust box? :lol:

My car has a weak autobox, proven to be the case several times in personal experience and all over various forums, I've seen plenty other Grand Voyager's with autobox problems and plenty are sold on Ebay for spares/repairs due to autobox problems. In contrast I've seen, driven, converted hundreds of P38s and none has had a gearbox problem, even those that have lived the hardest lives, worked for many Rangerover specialists and they all consider the gearboxes bulletproof... Knew Gilbert would reply :) As an aside, my rich great uncle bought a brand new diesel Classic in 1985 and towed his caravan to Cornwall where we were boating in Rock (I was a kid, sort of family holiday), except he didn't make it because his brand new manual gearbox kept jumping out of gear and eventually broke on the car's first outing. Had he been towing with my dad's 1973 LR 2.5 Safari or (as yet to be made) P38, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
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Location: Milton Keynes
LPGC wrote:
Yeh, the engine needs to work pretty much as it should before you can get much insight into autobox problems.

Guilty of putting too much thought into wording of my salty puddle post. The Irish sea is salty, confirmed by the amount of electricity it conducted to my body from my boat's engine / ignition system the other year (mentioned on forum), I know Camaro's at the other side of it... But, er, you looked at someone else's exhaust box? :lol:

My car has a weak autobox, proven to be the case several times in personal experience and all over various forums, I've seen plenty other Grand Voyager's with autobox problems and plenty are sold on Ebay for spares/repairs due to autobox problems. In contrast I've seen, driven, converted hundreds of P38s and none has had a gearbox problem, even those that have lived the hardest lives, worked for many Rangerover specialists and they all consider the gearboxes bulletproof... Knew Gilbert would reply :) As an aside, my rich great uncle bought a brand new diesel Classic in 1985 and towed his caravan to Cornwall where we were boating in Rock (I was a kid, sort of family holiday), except he didn't make it because his brand new manual gearbox kept jumping out of gear and eventually broke on the car's first outing. Had he been towing with my dad's 1973 LR 2.5 Safari or (as yet to be made) P38, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Simon


Got it sorted - it got a lot worse yesterday, and turns out the new (6 months old now) plug leads appear to be the cause, all the ones on the drivers side didn't seem to grab the plug contact post particularly well, removing them and squeezing with pliers round the contacts has restored it to how it should be/was before going into Essex.

I think I will be buying some better plug leads before too long though, they are a complete pain to change due to the location of the coil packs. Any makes particularly recommended by anyone here?


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Mention of them being a pain to change says you've got a Thor motor. Mines a GEMS but I'm running the GEMS equivalent to these http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/ignition-le ... -3972.html. At the price you can make them a service item and change them every time you change the oil. Or you can spend about £130 on Magnecores.....

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Posts: 893
Location: Milton Keynes
Gilbertd wrote:
Mention of them being a pain to change says you've got a Thor motor. Mines a GEMS but I'm running the GEMS equivalent to these http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/ignition-le ... -3972.html. At the price you can make them a service item and change them every time you change the oil. Or you can spend about £130 on Magnecores.....


Think that might be the best bet - Its using the intermotor ones i think anyway. And yes its a Thor as you guessed! It might be down to having to take them off again after replacing like for like to discover they were in the wrong order as well as a couple not working at all plus the apparent mixture of different plugs across both banks (think they are all the same spec of plug but two different types of post across them - some are a solid fixed post, others are a removable screw cap)

I think spending more on a set of plug leads than a tank of petrol is probably excessive though! So will give the Magnecores a miss!

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: BP stopping Autogas
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Glad that's sorted Bri, much better to have to change plug leads than gearbox!

Bit off topic but may be of interest. I just quoted one of Gilbert's posts on this thread on another forum, quote is below, here's the link http://www.uklegacy.com/forums/index.php/topic/144446-tomorrows-world-of-motoring/page-9.

Thread is supposedly about 'tomorrows world of motoring', but the OP started the thread after knocking LPG conversions seemingly at every opportunity on other threads and continued to do so on this thread.

Gilbertd wrote:
I can't see it going any other way. I'm surprised that following the VW emissions scandal the Government didn't suddenly increase the road tax on all VAG vehicles with the fiddled engines. Think about it, it would be a win-win situation for them. They could increase the road tax so give themselves a nice little bonus and they could hold their hands up and say it isn't our fault, it's all due to VW. Then when the VW owners complain that they bought the cars because the road tax was only £40 a year and now it's gone up to £200, the blame could be laid at the feet of the manufacturer. That and an increase in tax on diesel fuel should see diesels very rapidly losing popularity.

Then there is also the restrictions being introduced in numerous different cities. Paris has banned all pre-2000 diesel cars and the French Government has introduced a vignette system for Paris, Lyon and Grenoble. The vignettes are colour coded so the class can easily be seen and have classes 0 to 5 going on the amount of pollution your car emits. 0 being electric zero emissions vehicles up to 5 being the worst polluting. Classes 4 and 5 are only issued to diesels and petrol engined cars are rated on their emissions figure. I got one for my V8 Range Rover and if it was running on petrol it would have been class 3 but because it is on LPG, it's class 1. Although they haven't said as much, I strongly suspect that sooner or later they will announce that at certain times only vehicles in class 0 to 3 will be allowed in the cities.

Anyone that is planning on driving into any of these French cities needs to get the vignette and stick it in their windscreen. It costs 4.80 Euros but if you are not displaying one it's a 135 Euro fine. See https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motori ... ch-cities/

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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