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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Hours of alternative fuel reading and diy conversion stuff on vegetableoil dot coe dot youk.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:11 pm 
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veg will be my next option if this lpg thing dont work out, will get myself another jeep with the vm oil burner and go back to filtering chip shop oil, no mods needed, will run on 80/20% mix in winter just fine and 100% in summer but of course lacks the oomph of a 4.0L.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:38 pm 
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but where do you fill up when you are 100 (or 1000) miles away from home? MacDonalds?

Bloke at work runs on veg oil but never goes more than 50 miles from home so he's always able to get back to fill up. Seems almost as pointless as an electric car to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Why pointless? It's no different to diesel? The better you plan, the further and cheaper you can go. If you're stuck, diesel will do just fine anyway.

My T25 takes about 75litres, so will go for hundreds of miles on whatever fuel is in it!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:38 pm 
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But surely the idea is to save money, if it wasn't, you'd just simply run on diesel? That means you always have to fill up at home or buy diesel and save nothing. For me I'd save very little as I use my car for long journeys. I'll fill up locally and then fill up 3, 4 or as many as 15 times before I'm back home again. On one of my regular runs across Europe, I'd do less than 10% of the journey on cheap fuel and the rest on full price. That's why I say that, for me at any rate, it's pointless.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Even if you only put in 1 litre of veg you have saved money, its no different to lpg, the percentage of garages that sell lpg for cars is very small compared to how many petrol/diesel outlets there are, with lpg unless you are doing a regular run and know where the lpg garages are you have to plan your journey's fuel stops very carefully, you dont if your burning veg, many a time I have run dry of lpg and had to drive quite a few miles on liquid gold until I found an lpg garage en route, the majority of my miles are fairly local and would always have had a ready supply of nice free filterd cso available, but on any journey I bet you I could stop almost anywhere and fill up on veg !! unlike lpg, and at 80/90p maybe a quid a litre for new veg, I didnt care if I embarrassed the Mrs and filled up in supermarket car park :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:58 am 
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But it's totally different to LPG. There may not be as many filling stations that sell it as there are that sell petrol but there's still plenty enough. On the Continent virtually all sell it anyway so it would never be a problem for me a lot of the time.

In my mind it's a bit like running on LPG when you can only ever fill up at home and always have to return for your next tankful. Accepted that you can go into a supermarket and buy the cheapo own brand cooking oil but at 80p+ a litre you're paying more than I do for LPG so where's the saving? You've also got the disadvantage of having to run a diesel and where would you fill up in the middle of the night anywhere in France, Holland or Germany? Few supermarkets are open 24 hours, all are off the motorway and none are open on a Sunday.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:10 am 
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Well diesel is at around £1.48 a litre, off the shelf veg oil is around 80/100p per litre, dont take too much to work out where the saving is, plus the veg usage is around the same as diesel, the continent is an entirely different setup to the uk, I have indeed filled up at 11pm at night from a tesco's whilst on my way to Stranrear to collect my current jeep with a trailer when I also run the jeep oil burner, absolutely brilliant, the tesco garage at the same supermarket which was 24hrs had closed at 10pm (didnt know that and assumed it was open) I was on nearly empty so thankfully the hugest tesco I ever seen in the middle of nowhere at Dumfries saved the day, horse for courses innit, if you run a petrol engine and want to save, use lpg, if you run a diesel engine and want to save, use veg, yes I can fill up at home, but I can fill up almost anywhere including more and more garages who are starting to stock bio diesel, and if you get stuck on the continent then just put in diesel as you would petrol if you couldnt get lpg, your not going to put veg oil into a petrol tank but you can run a diesel with lpg assist (be it an expensive install and you need to cover many miles such as a bus or huge truck to get the savings back) but lpg will save you money running a diesel in the long run, plus your not restricted to veg either with a diesel, its an oil burner and believe me itl run on virtually anything oily if its thin enough and providing there isnt any solvents in it :P


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:27 am 
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As jsut said, diesels are much more frugal than petrols, accepting they are slower and noisier (at least the ones suitable for veg oil without any changes are)

Let's take my T25.
Diesel - 100miles @ 35mpg@1.42p/l = £18.41
Veg Oil 100miles @ 35mpg@£1.00p/l = £12.97
Petrol - 100 miles @ 20mpg@£1.38p/l = £31.32
LPG - 100 miles @17mpg @ £0.69 = £18.42

As you can see, just being a diesel makes it cost the same to run as LPG, the benefit of vege oil just adds. You can get oil anywhere, but even if you can't, diesel is fine.

I would never swap my T25 for a petrol even if it was on LPG. I filled the tank and took 20litres of oil in the back and got 700miles without a fillup.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:32 pm 
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Those figures look about spot on, There were some calculations done a couple of years ago and it worked out petrol was by far the most expensive, with diesel being roughly 2/3rds the cost and LPG marginally cheaper still. It would of course depend on the individual vehicle as the fuel consumption of the particular engines fitted in the same vehicle will differ slightly. This was done using a Vauxhall example where the petrol engine was a 1.6 while the diesel version of the same vehicle got a 1.9. If the diesel had been a 1.7, and slightly more economical, then the diesel may have come out as marginally cheaper than the LPG version.

But, what do you want to drive? You say you would never swap your diesel for a petrol on LPG but why not? Running costs would be the same but you'd be looking at a quieter, smoother, more powerful engine with far superior driving dynamics. In my opinion old school diesel engines (those that are capable of being run on veg oil and not the modern ones) have their place, but it isn't in cars.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:44 pm 
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And thats why I run both, my offroader is a 4.0L petrol with tons of oomph plus an auto transmission, and I love it, its awsome, the equivalent diesel jeep is a 2.5L manual which lacks the rpm's and power range that the 4,0L has, plus it has a manual gearbox which is tedious on the left foot and clutch's dont last when trying to get through bogs ditch's and bombhole's or whatever, as I said horses for courses the 4.0L is brilliant onroad and offroad, but the 2.5L td is a brilliant work horse and good as a tow truck and is fairly economical on diesel let alone veg, although just now im running as a daily drive an 06 mondeo estate 2.0 tdci 115 its economy outweighs the maintenance problems, at 60mph steady driving driven like a nun it will do 60.2 mpg but it needs a conversion for veg, but with that economy its not worth it, but it wont be long before a vm powered diesel jeep is acquired for pulling my transporter/trailer, basically im a fan of both lpg and veg :P


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:41 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
But, what do you want to drive? You say you would never swap your diesel for a petrol on LPG but why not? Running costs would be the same but you'd be looking at a quieter, smoother, more powerful engine with far superior driving dynamics. In my opinion old school diesel engines (those that are capable of being run on veg oil and not the modern ones) have their place, but it isn't in cars.



You're preaching to the converted, but I bought it a diesel, and it does the job just fine - what's the point in me spending money to change? One day, I'll convert it to an Audi V6, but only when I've got spare cash, and that asin't happening soon. It's an old campervan, it doesn't need to be fast - I would only gain another useful 10mph, after which I'd need to start upgrading brakes and suspension. Wouldn't fancy doing much more than 70mph on the standard setup :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:26 am 
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I run a twin tank set up on my frontera diesel, so approx 28 gallon of fuel on board.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:50 am 
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lotusfrontera wrote:
I run a twin tank set up on my frontera diesel, so approx 28 gallon of fuel on board.


Fancy meeting you here Dave :P


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:56 am 
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Hi Tim, I`m like co op tea, all over the shop.
I`m still trying to get head back on my 2.2 petrol/LPG frontera, just run out of funds at the mo :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:00 pm 
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i used to run a renault extra on 50/50 mix of veggie oil/diesel but thats when veggie oil could be bought for £1.50 a gallon..that was about 12 years ago...now i look around supermarkets and youd be lucky to get less than £6 a gallon so not worth the hassle but just wondered if you can buy veggie oil like the retailers..they must buy it in about half price of retail price...anyone know how much Costco sell it for in their 5 gallon drums? my next camper project i think will be a diesel because i want to install a woodburner and i'm abit wary of having one with the lpg tank in close vicinity like it is in my camper now although i use a calor gas fire and not blown myself up yet


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:01 am 
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I run a passat and seat altea on biodiesel.

But I'm looking to go petrol/lpg.

I've used bio/veg oil for 5 years.

It's a lot of effort, time and mess.

Most of my oils free so with processing and chemicals, you're looking at 15p a litre.

What do you do when you miles from home, fill it from the cans you put in the boot.

For me to turn around 200lt batch into a 'ready to use fuel'
24hrs.

That's not including collecting it, settling it.

You need space to make it.

Is there a newbie section on here I have tons of questions


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Old thread resurrected!

Interesting how economy calculations done today would compare to when the thread started in 2012...
j33myb wrote:
As jsut said, diesels are much more frugal than petrols, accepting they are slower and noisier (at least the ones suitable for veg oil without any changes are)

Let's take my T25.
Diesel - 100miles @ 35mpg@1.42p/l = £18.41
Veg Oil 100miles @ 35mpg@£1.00p/l = £12.97
Petrol - 100 miles @ 20mpg@£1.38p/l = £31.32
LPG - 100 miles @17mpg @ £0.69 = £18.42

As you can see, just being a diesel makes it cost the same to run as LPG, the benefit of vege oil just adds. You can get oil anywhere, but even if you can't, diesel is fine.

I would never swap my T25 for a petrol even if it was on LPG. I filled the tank and took 20litres of oil in the back and got 700miles without a fillup.

December 2015 and that would look like:
Diesel - 100miles @ 35mpg@1.04p/l = £13.41
Veg Oil 100miles @ 35mpg@£1.00p/l = £13.02
Petrol - 100 miles @ 20mpg@£1.04p/l = £23.71
LPG - 100 miles @17mpg @ £0.50 = £13.41

But the above is for a VW T25, where according to provided figures the diesel version will do over twice as many mpg as a petrol version running on LPG. For most other vehicles, the diesel version won't do nearly twice as many mpg as the petrol version, even than the petrol version running on LPG... In the real world, for most models of vehicle, the petrol version converted to LPG will be cheaper to run than the diesel version simply in terms of fuel. i.e. before we even get into the far greater likelihood of the diesel version needing expensive parts changing such as DMF's, DPF's, EGR valves, injectors, gearbox (due to power delivery at low rpm so gearbox sees more torque more often). Most of those parts don't come cheap but are either not fitted at all on petrol engines (DPFs and direct diesel injectors, in some cases DMF's) or don't break even a third as often on petrol vehicles as they do on diesel vehicles. Back in the day when petrol cars had points and carbs and diesels only had a mechanical fuel pump, diesels had a better reputation for reliability than petrol vehicles but with modern vehicles the opposite is true - diesels now have more parts that go wrong (and more often) than petrol vehicles.

My son reckons his 2litre Mondeo Ghia X easily achieves over 30mpg on LPG doing mixed driving. His girlfriend owns a nearly new little Citroen hatchback with little 3 cylinder turbo diesel engine with on paper mpg of over 70. In the real world, his car costs around the same to run as the little Citreon, he didn't spend anywhere near the same money on his 2L GhiaX Mondeo as she did on the Citroen, he'd much rather have the Mondeo, she also prefers going anywhere in the Mondeo. If the little Citroen was something the type of thing he'd like to own (and if he didn't mind spending £thousands more than he spend on the Mondeo), then he'd buy the petrol version of the little Citroen hatchback (which would cost less than the diesel version), would move his LPG system from the Mondeo to the Citroen.. So if it ever came to it, his Citroen would cost him less to buy, less in fuel costs, and likely less in parts than his girlfriends...

Since the thread was started we've had 'VW&Audi-gate' :lol: . Government had previously given a fuel cost incentive for diesels (the argument being because diesels produce less CO2).. That argument always looked invalid to LPG users (cleanest fuel of them all) because it was known at the time that diesel particulate emissions etc are more harmful to the local environment than CO2 but now government pushing diesel would seem even more silly. At least LPG users have always enjoyed extremely (in comparison) low fuel duty - and will continue to do so - duty breaks may now be less certain for any type of diesel... Not many people would concern themselves with a few% lower Britain CO2 output if full in the knowledge that diesel fumes are much more damaging to local health than petrol fumes, LPG fumes less damaging to local health than petrol or diesel - any diesel (pump diesel, bio blends, straight bio, WVO or proper bio diesel).

Figures also show running on veg oil these days wouldn't be worth the messing about, might as well run on pump diesel (particularly after reading below). Also worth repeating, most modern diesels cannot run on veg oil without great risk of damaging diesel pumps and direct injectors - Old school diesels with Bosch pumps seem to fair OK on veg oil, stuff like Transits with Lucas pumps suffer worn out diesel pumps running on veg oil. In all cases it's best to mix diesel with veg oil (reducing possible potential savings) because veg oil is thicker than diesel (even thicker in winter when a greater proportion of diesel must be used) or risk fuel starvation due to gloop in fuel lines, filters, lift pumps, main pumps.

A long time ago before I got into LPG I used to run a Ford Scorpio with VM diesel engine (before the 2.5 VM diesel version I'd had loads of 2.9 Scorpios and Mk2 Granada 2.8i's and missed the quiet, smooth power of the petrol v6's). I had the VM run on all sorts of stuff including filling the car in supermarket car parks from new 3L tubbs of veg oil, it liked the taste of cherry too! Exhaust stunk on veg oil really badly, good job it had A/C because you wouldn't want the windows open, fumes would burn your throat! Lift pump didn't like veg oil at all, had loads of probs after running on it for a while.

I looked into making 'proper' (government spec) bio-diesel, which is very different to straight WVO, looked first with a view to just making it for my own use and then with a view to producing it commercially. The thing about proper bio-diesel is that if you obtain a licence and can produce it to spec (must be made from WVO not new veg oil, must be properly filtered, must have salts and soaps removed, this involving rather dangerous chemical processes), then you could sell it at a premium above the price of normal diesel (to bus companies etc), in which case you could profit from producing it. But if you made it not quite to spec (and a government type inspector, who would be a chemist, would be checking this regularly) you would end up losing money because would have to pay more duty on it. Would probably need to employ chemists to run such an operation, and then you would find that most diesel vehicles couldn't run on your neat bio-diesel anyway unless all rubber components (O rings etc) in fuel system had been changed to metal components (100% bio-diesel corrodes rubber), so you couldn't sell it to the general public with un-modded vehicles. After learning all the above I lost interest in bio-diesel, was already fed up of stinky exhaust and other issues when running on veg oil, missed my previous petrol engine'd cars sound, power, smoothness, engine response, performance, reliability (had to helicoil rocker arm securing bolt-holes in a couple of the VM's 4 separate cylinder heads and even after that I'd occasionally have to whip the rocker cover off to pop pushrods back into rockers! It also suffered bad starting after using veg oil). At around this time I started taking notice of LPG pumps on all those garage forecourts, bought another petrol car, researched LPG a bit more, found an LPG equipment supplier who would supply me (I wasn't trade then and most wouldn't supply to none trade, it was all on the hush hush don't tell anyone we supplied you!), bought an LPG kit and converted the petrol car to LPG. Best thing I could have done! Started converting customer cars to LPG and have been doing so ever since.

Seriously - Who would prefer a clattery diesel, usually with 4 cylinders, usually with short power band, stinky exhaust unless you spend £1000's on one of the latest models (with yet to be long term tested emissions preventing technology), with greater potential of having to spend a lot more money on parts mentioned above over a petrol model, where even if engine develops same bhp as the petrol equivalent the petrol will still be more sporting and would still beat the diesel around a track... When you could have the petrol equivalent of your choosing - 4 cylinder petrol will be much more refined than 4 cyl diesel, can be converted to LPG to make cheaper to run than the diesel, comparing turbo diesels to normally aspirated petrols is like comparing apples and oranges (turbo diesel drivers should test drive the turbo petrol version of same vehicle model and see if turbo diesel holds up at all in comparison), perhaps try a smooth V6 or V8 version equivalent model and see how diesel compares then.. There is a new breed of drivers who may never have done the above, because they equate diesel with economy, yet when doing paper comparisons don't know to factor in cost of new DMF (which will break due to lumpy high low rpm torque) which may cost £1000. That £1000 spent on one prone to failure diesel engine component is money gone forever, no vehicle buyer is going to pay much more for a second hand diesel car just because it has just had a new DMF fitted - diesel car buyers are usually in same boat as other diesel car buyers (they too don't consider the potential of having to spend on a DPF etc [maybe at same time as having a new clutch fitted]). That £1000 could have been spent on an LPG conversion for the equivalent petrol model, the equivalent petrol model would probably be cheaper to buy than the diesel version, plenty of buyers will pay extra for an LPG car because it is cheaper to run than the diesel.. Even if they wouldn't spend extra for an LPG converted car, the person who had the car converted will have spent less money buying, converting and running the LPG car than the diesel car buyer. Most people are just not aware. One of the best things with LPG for many people is that it can make the difference between running a vehicle they really like (which without LPG would be too expensive to run) / compromising by running a diesel when the vehicle they'd rather own would be a petrol model, perhaps even the V6 or turbo petrol model. One of my neighbours once boasted that his diesel Freelander would do 20mpg towing the caravan fully loaded. 'Hmm', I said, 'I reckon my car would only do 10mpg pulling my caravan'. He laughed, and it still didn't quite seem to sink in when I told him that, even so, my journey pulling the caravan would cost me less than his journey since LPG was below half the price of diesel. And my car was a luxurious V12 powered BMW 750 :lol: .He was into his cars a bit, had a fairly recent model MG which he used on Sundays (not too often because he didn't like paying for the petrol), I'm sure he liked my V12. So who does it seem was compromising in terms of both choice of vehicle and fuel costs! ..We talked about the V8 version of his MG, he knew all the facts about that model and I'm sure he would have loved one.. But it never did sink in he could have run one and it would have cost him less in fuel costs than his current (not V8 :lol: ) MG... That's the way it is with most people.

Hardly worth mentioning now (since veg oil is about same price as pump diesel) but new veg oil and wvo are not what the government considers bio-diesel (as explained above). Point - none government spec bio diesel attracts a higher rate of duty than spec bio-diesel - It's breaking the law if you don't pay the correct duty on the fuel you use. No worries about being dipped and having to pay a hefty fine (and maybe having vehicle confiscated too) because you haven't paid the correct duty if you run on LPG... Even if you found a very cheap supply of LPG (ahem) and ran an LPG car on it, the stuff would be indistinguishable from LPG bought from a garage forecourt.

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:07 pm 
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The first 2500lts a year are duty free
New veg oil is currently 60p per litre.
The chemicals to make proper bio diesel (methanol and caustic) are a bit safer than having lpg in your boot.

Biodiesel does not destroy rubber residual methanol does.

If the biodiesel is made to en14214 then there should not be any methanol left as it would of been washed out along with the soap.

I run a seat altea and it has only ever been run on 100% bio for over 70 k without issue.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:52 pm 
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Willing to take your word on some of your points as I haven't checked for years..

But really new veg oil at 60p/litre from where? I just checked one supermarket and as suspected it still seems to be £1/litre... http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/search/default.aspx?searchBox=vegetable+oil&icid=tescohp_sws-1_vegetable+oil. The price of new veg oil shot up in price (and by shot up I mean something like doubled in price over period of only a few weeks) at around the time when it was reported in newspapers and on TV news that diesel vehicle owners were frequenting a certain Asda in Wales to buy new veg oil and filling their cars with it in supermarket car parks - I can't see price of new veg oil falling much below price of pump diesel any time soon!

At around that time I looked into buying new veg oil in bulk but if you bought a few thousand litres you might have got just a few% reduction in price... supermarkets by new veg oil in much greater quantities than you or I ever could and they only make a very small markup on it.

Difficult to obtain used wvo because new veg oil suppliers (whom used to just supply new veg oil and expect the end user to use it for cooking etc and then just dump it) now collect the used wvo (paying the user for it) and then sell it to well established large scale bio-diesel producers. You could buy used wvo in bulk from some places but it wasn't cheap and you had to take a 'job lot', which could include very old very contaminated used wvo - By contaminated I mean with salts/fats, bits of food... the sort of stuff in wvo which could vastly reduce the yield when producing bio-diesel. I tried buying bulk wvo from owners of chains of restaurants (some that I know on a personal basis), I suggested I'd pay them the same for WVO as they were paid by the suppliers (suppliers being same as collectors). The restaurants were paid more for allowing the veg oil companies to collect their wvo than I could have paid while allowing for a profit in ideal circumstances.

Proper bio diesel could not be made from new veg oil and meet spec, anyway. To be termed bio-diesel it had to be made from waste veg oil. Government thinking is - Even if we turned over the entire surface of the earth into producing veg oil to fuel diesel engines, there still would not be enough veg oil to fuel diesel engines but there also would not be any space for houses, or for growing crops... so they do have a point when stipulating that bio diesel must be made from wvo (waste/used veg oil).

Not a chemist and this is working from memory (I could re-learn what I learned over 10 years ago but I won't bother...). I think the conversion process went like this - Filter first (probably several times through different grade screens). Then boil up with added water to remove salts (electric bill going up a bit..). Siphon partly made fuel off from salts that have now disolved in water and collected at bottom of vat. Buy methanol and sodium hydroxide if you can obtain them (few bobs worth?). Mix methanol with sodium hydroxide to produce sodium methoxide (this bit hazardous being an exothermic reaction with potential for a violent reaction, the end chemical the kind of stuff that will take skin off). This chemical then added to salt free vat to change fats into soaps (or vice versa) which then drop to the bottom of the wvo. Siphon bio-diesel off from fats/soaps.

Would probably want to employ a chemist to run checks for you at the various stages of production (rather more outlay). Then some inspector comes around and checks your supposed to spec bio-diesel to make sure there are no bits in it above a certain particulate size, runs tests to check for salts, checks to test for fats / soaps, probably a few more tests to check for other impurities such as that sodium methoxide left in your bio-diesel... If all that goes well (or maybe before even doing any chemical tests) he wants to see proof of where / how you obtained the wvo to check it was wvo you used, not new... If he's completely happy he then allows you to pay the duty on it - Low enough duty to allow room for a profit if your product totally meets the spec, more expensive duty which doesn't allow room for a profit if he's not happy with any part of the above. If it didn't make spec you probably couldn't sell it to to any commercial user but could sell it (at a loss) to general motoring public - that is, if you owned your own petrol station and if you put a big sign up with disclaimer that customers use at own risk (in case of any claims of damaged fuel systems etc).

I really don't know what would be safer to keep in your car, LPG or sodium methoxide. Both would be safe in an LPG tank but then again reckon LPG would be safer in single hole tanks as there is a compression seal on single hole tanks... Reckon both would be safer than carrying petrol around though! Tell us again why you're interested in LPG forum?

You mention one model of vehicle - Would you stick a sign up outside your petrol station (or house) reading 'bio-diesel sold here, meets government spec, promise it won't damage your model of vehicle or sue me if it does'?

As said, I have run diesels on veg oil before myself, but I know veg oil (new or wvo) is not the same thing as bio-diesel. Except for the smell, why bother converting veg oil into bio diesel for own use? Most would consider the costs and time spent processing not worth it? I'm glad I don't have to produce LPG with some hazardous multi step costly process in a private lab!

I got my mate (sadly now dead) interested in producing bio-diesel years ago, told him how to go about it etc including all the info above in more detail. He found a supplier of legit wvo and started producing/selling 'bio-diesel' from a unit on a local industrial estate but it was not proper bio-diesel, it was just filtered wvo because he didn't bother with any of the chemicals, fat/soaps removal or salt removal and didn't do anything about fuel duty. He could only sell to local diesel car owners and it seemed he was on dodgy ground - a lot of his customers complained about blocked/damaged fuel systems, you could tell if you were following one of his customer's cars because it's exhaust fumes would burn the back of your throat and sting your eyes.

Simon

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