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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:53 am 
I visited a biomethane plant on Saturday - a very impressive set up which produces a gas (plus fertiliser & liquid manure) suitable for vehicle fuel. It is based nr Wincanton & info on the vehicle fuel can be found here - http://www.organic-power.co.uk/biometha ... fuels.aspx

You can make methane from a variety of organic materials (in fact virtually anything that isn't wood) ... it can use farm slurry, but as this has already been digested (cows have 4 stomachs!) it isn't as good as a crop grown specifically for the purpose. However all sorts of waste can be used - abattoir waste, chocolate waste, lactose from cheesemaking, food waste, etc etc. It was a fascinating tour & is definitely a contender for fossil fuel replacement. It also has a high octane :P & is good for engines - less corrosive than LPG.


Last edited by coughdrop on Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:59 pm 
It needs a larger tank, pretty heavy one I understand. None of the current LPG kit can be utilised (I'd buy a different car to convert). Theres a compressor system I found here - have mailed for info - http://www.gasfill.com/products.htm - so we could hopefully use a regular propane tank & also use it for the central heating (different jets?), then find a reliable source for methane.

I don't know what he meant by corrosive - impact on joints & pipes?... I will try & find out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:10 pm 
Useful for isolated pockets of vehicles for sure but not a panacea I think.
The space and energy required, not to mention the limited supplies of material to digest (including its transport in the equation) mean that it will be impossible for every home to have one.

How much Methane is this plant producing? How many vehicles will it run?
What is the real cost in terms of space and energy used in getting the whole deal there and distributing the product, then removing the waste? How much energy is used in planting and harvesting crops that are purpose grown for Methane production? How much habitat would have to be cleared worldwide for it to be viable?

Problem is that we have had a cheap and easy ride with fossil fuels (Methane included) for too long to get real about it yet, until Oil and Gas has almost gone that is.

My money is on the simplest thing of all - H20.

Split the H20 (Hydrogen and O2). Burn the H (oxydise it) and produce...H20. Not that simple in reality of course, some energy has to be put in at the beginning to make the split, but enough is around for free if we want to look for it. We will when we have no choice.

Major problems - How does a government tax that? What excuse would they use? It won't be Carbon emissions! Perhaps we'll see a return of the 'Window Tax' and people will rush to buy Vans....!

Seriously though, Science and Technology do not provide us with the limits. Governments with needs for taxation and keeping the masses controlled (read employed) along with private industry and its taste for maximum profit do that much more effectively, Viz. it won't happen until it can be taxed, controlled, monopolised.

Regards

Steve

www.go-lpg.co.uk


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:28 pm 
Is there some confusion here?

All of the kits we install will run LPG and CNG (with a change of tank and reducer). CNG is Compressed Natural Gas. Natural Gas is Methane. Organically produced Methane is the same thing and can be compressed, becoming CNG. Move on a little, compress Methane further and it becomes LNG, Liquified Natural Gas.

It seems you have the answer Coughdrop, although my earlier post shows just some of the details to be worked out!

Back to reality, LPG tanks are not suitable for the storage of CNG nor LNG.

Regards

Steve

www.go-lpg.co.uk


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:42 pm 
A little while ago I stumbled upon a technical forum in america of mad scientist types running thier cars on water, it would appear from reading the posts that several of these people really were doing just this, albeit with some medium term engine servicing and corrosion problems. The jist of it seemed to be to inject water vapour into the cylinder much in the same way as petrol, but the spark plugs were fed by some type of transformed very high voltage AC supply, (created on board the car) for much longer than the usual spark time, this causes a "plasma arc" of some sort and seperated hydrogen from the water causing combustion!! The plugs seemed to burn out and need changing every few hundred miles or so, but the engine otherwise performed much like a petrol engine!!

Now, if this can be done in someones back shed, albeit with problems using currently available engines and parts, you can't tell me that auto makers can't engineer this to perfection relatively easily!!! And they must know about it, I think I'm beginning to understand how conspiracy theorists think... :?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:47 pm 
It is fact that there are no truly free rides. The amount of energy required to split H from 02 is directly proportional to the power used to drive the machine (car), the amount lost in overcoming friction and drag, the amount lost to the atmosphere in the form of heat.

So, no gain then.

But this is where someone could play the smart position - Use a free and renewable source of energy for the split. Some ideas spring to mind, i.e utilising relatively useless and unpopulated (by man or beast) hot desert areas to harness Solar energy, maybe even the Antarctic continent. Geothermal heat would be another contender. And if the global escalator theory could become fact (there is no reason why it could not, it bears scrutiny) then H20 splitters in geostationary orbit, tethered to Earth and having supply and product pipework within the mast(s) are possible. No weather outside the atmosphere, the Sun always shines in daytime.
Cheap, reliable energy for free and you don't even have to cast a dark shadow on Earth as the panels could be largely transparent.

Science Fiction perhaps?

Yes.

But remember that yesterday's Science Fiction has often become today's Science Fact. The only limits are the lack of freedom to think, the acceptance of what cannot be done, the protection of revenues by elements of what we call an 'economy'.

Regards

Steve

www.go-lpg.co.uk


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:37 pm 
go_lpg wrote:
Useful for isolated pockets of vehicles for sure but not a panacea I think.
The space and energy required, not to mention the limited supplies of material to digest (including its transport in the equation) mean that it will be impossible for every home to have one.

How much Methane is this plant producing? How many vehicles will it run?
What is the real cost in terms of space and energy used in getting the whole deal there and distributing the product, then removing the waste? How much energy is used in planting and harvesting crops that are purpose grown for Methane production? How much habitat would have to be cleared worldwide for it to be viable?

www.go-lpg.co.uk


Yes I agree, single units per home are not viable, however there is nothing to stop every village in the country having one to supple many homes - the tanks are stored in a lagoon, so that they are below ground level, the tanks (reclaimed polyprop) are not under stress & any leaks are very visible. They do not produce any smell. The compressor to separate the methane & CO2 takes some space & tanks for delivery of waste & storage of finished gas would normally be above ground, but not really of 'industrial' appearance.

Some figures - 70,000 tonnes of food waste creates c9,240,000L of methane or 25 cu metres. 10,000 tonnes gives 720,000l, whereas 10,000 tonnes of lactose (cheese-making waste) gives 897,000L. I don't know how many vehicles this would power.... I think the range per L is slightly lower than LPG - anyone know?

I think there are plentiful supplies of waste products to digest! You don't need to plant a crop at all. These waste streams are currently transported away & either land-filled or spread on the fields, emitting more methane as they degrade (& stinking in the process).

The 'waste' from the plant is actually ALL saleable produce - fertiliser, methane, CO2 (apparently good as a solvent & other uses) & water.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:39 pm 
go_lpg wrote:
Is there some confusion here?

All of the kits we install will run LPG and CNG (with a change of tank and reducer). CNG is Compressed Natural Gas.

www.go-lpg.co.uk


Can you give some more details on this please? The CNG conversion people I contacted said that none of it would be suitable.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:12 am 
Junior Member

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Huntingdon, Cambs
http://my90.co.uk/lpg/viewtopic.php?t=5428


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 Post subject: Wood!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:07 am 
Hi All, at last I've found a decent forum on gas!!
Coughdrop says anything but wood can be digested, well sorry to disagree (or is that just by this particular system?), but the late French genius, Jean Pain did just that, and very successfully too!
You'll find his work on Wiki, Mother Earth News and You-Tube at all scales! :D
Well worth a look!
I'm hoping to get our local council (Angus)moving on this as they already have a methane capture prog up and running at the main landfill site up here.
Mike.


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