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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:32 pm 
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Talkingcars wrote:
Gilbert wrote:
Yes Simon, the Spanish wouldn't want to lose the income from tourists but as part of the EU they will have to impose the same rules as the other EU countries. So if it is decided that we need a visa for one, we'd need one for all the others whether the Spanish like it or not.


Not according to other EU countries, they all seem to say they would require visas to visit if you have a UK passport.

UK citizens living in Spain cost them far more than tourism generates, and there are 4 times as many Brits in Spain then Spanish in the UK.

My interest? I am a British citizen married to s Spanish citizen, she has access to Spanish info seeing it from the other side.


How do Brits living in Spain cost Spain money?

My mate is half Spanish, his mum's side... They dashed to Gibraltar just before he was born so he'd be born a Brit.

I don't think people need be worried about not being able to holiday in Spain.. Seriously - If we did need a visa following Brexit, how difficult would that visa be to obtain? Now read the quote below and then the quote at the top of this post again... Is it true that we managed to negotiate/veto/change EU legislation to protect our kit car industry but Spain would not be able to do the same for their tourism industry, or is that a bit of a cynical take on the situation following Brexit?

Gilbertd wrote:
Some years ago the EU tried to standardise things which would have meant we couldn't register anything without a CoC here either. That was blocked because of our kit car and Classic car industry as it would have been detrimental to the economy (and probably because quite a few MPs and members of the house of Lords are into their Classics too).


Sure the Poles come over in droves to work hard and most of us think Brits sitting on their backsides all day are lazy. On the other hand, if their was a country just a drive away where those lazy Brits would be welcomed and paid several times what they'd expect to earn in this country I expect we'd see a lot less lazy Brits, because they'd suddenly become less lazy and start working abroad. If you agree Brits are lazy then you agree it is possible to judge people based on where they come from. If it is true you can judge people based on where they come from then I'd rather Britain stay full of Brits, after all Britain hasn't been noted for it's lazy population throughout history, and this may go a long way towards explaining why we're a richer country than Poland still today. Or maybe there isn't a Polish equivalent of Jeremy Kyle!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Sure the Poles come over in droves to work hard and most of us think Brits sitting on their backsides all day are lazy. On the other hand, if their was a country just a drive away where those lazy Brits would be welcomed and paid several times what they'd expect to earn in this country I expect we'd see a lot less lazy Brits, because they'd suddenly become less lazy and start working abroad. If you agree Brits are lazy then you agree it is possible to judge people based on where they come from. If it is true you can judge people based on where they come from then I'd rather Britain stay full of Brits, after all Britain hasn't been noted for it's lazy population throughout history, and this may go a long way towards explaining why we're a richer country than Poland still today. Or maybe there isn't a Polish equivalent of Jeremy Kyle!
The problem is down to our benefits system. When someone can sit at home doing nothing all day long and still take what would be considered a decent living wage, there are some, and I agree they are a very tiny minority, that will do it. I'm not saying we are a lazy nation, just that there are some that are taking advantage of the system. When they can receive the same for doing nothing as they could by going out and doing 'immigrant work', why shouldn't they? In all honesty, even if there was a country where they could earn more, would they or would they just carry on doing what they (don't) do now?

The minimum wage in the UK is second only to Luxembourg and roughly the same as in France, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and Germany. In comparison, it is around 5 times that in Poland, Lithunia, Latvia, (where the bulk of the immigrants in this area are from) and even more than that in Romania and Bulgaria (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... nimum_wage). The problem in these countries is that prices have risen to bring them more into line with the more affluent EU countries but wages haven't. So someone working an unskilled, minimum wage job in Poland can barely afford to live but they can come here where there is a desperate shortage of workers willing to do unskilled, boring, monotonous work in all weathers and conditions. By working long hours they can earn a very respectable wage (and, as they are supplied with work through a staff agency, the 48 hour maximum working week rules can be ignored). In this area, as well as the numerous fruit and veg processing and packing plants, which supply every supermarket, there are a number of enormous factories producing the pre-packed, ready to eat, salads and sandwiches you'll see on the snack shelves in your local supermarket and filling stations. As they are producing fresh food, the workers are working in what is effectively a huge fridge. I wouldn't do it (and my partner only stuck it for 2 days!) but they are crying out for labour and there is, just about, enough to supply them with the staff they need. Again though, none of them are English.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
I'm not saying we are a lazy nation, just that there are some that are taking advantage of the system. When they can receive the same for doing nothing as they could by going out and doing 'immigrant work', why shouldn't they? In all honesty, even if there was a country where they could earn more, would they or would they just carry on doing what they (don't) do now?
Mostly agreed, although.... Already touched on an 'if all people are the same' point..? And as I implied, if people could sit on their bums getting benefits, which might cover cost of their housing etc too but leave little after bills, or go work abroad and earn several times as much and feel comparatively rich (compared to their mates etc) in this country, reckon a lot (but of course not all) would choose to do so. For the same reason as blokes go work on rigs, etc.. for the money. If many people in this country on the dole have £10 a week left over after paying bills and for food etc while on benefits, then they probably won't think it worthwhile to work all week to be left with £20 a week after paying for bills and food but if they could go work abroad and have £500 left over at the end of the week, many would choose to do so. And many of those would go further and work double shifts doing the jobs foreigners didn't want to do if at the end of the week that would leave them with £1000 left over. But we wouldn't wish for there to be a much richer country just a short drive away as that would mean this country would not be as comparatively rich in the first place...

There will be some skewered figures when it comes to the pros of immigrants, because immigrants do pay their taxes but they don't contribute to the economy as much as a native on the same money would.. Because the intention is usually to earn money here but spend it abroad, Auf Wiedersehen Pet! I consider myself pretty good at maths - If a country has a net wealth of X and someone in that country sends Y abroad, the country now has a net wealth of X-Y. If we are all in one big happy Europe and we want to improve (ahem develop) less well off countries in Europe, and that involves spending (giving) money, then money spent helping those countries decreases the wealth of better of countries. It is the worse of countries that seem most eager to join, but some countries may have 'sub concious' reasons for wanting a unified Europe, such as unfortunate pasts which a new European age might seem to help distance them from.

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:28 am 
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Hmmmm, the plot thickens! Something that i realised the other day - all (or at least it seems like all) of the other current EU countries are doing everything they can to persuade us to stay in. Asking myself why, the answer i came up with is that we, as a country, are helping to stabilise the EU at present and without us, all hell would break loose in terms of economy fluctuations/crashes, unemployment and other undesirable problems. After all, for the most part there's no real love lost between us and the French, Germans, Spanish etc when you look back through history.

Whether i'm right or wrong i really don't know but it does make you wonder why all these EU member states/countries don't want us to leave. Or maybe they just couldn't manage without our £350m each week?

As an aside, someone told me recently that Volvo had been sold to the Chinese and was no longer part of Fords PAG and that JLR were now owned by the Indians (Tata comes to mind but i might be wrong) according to someone else whose brother works for JLR in some high-faluting technical capacity.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:50 am 
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Yes, Volvo is now Chinese owned, as is MG cars which has the rights to a number of the ex-BL marques, Aston Martin is owned by a number of different multi-National holding companies (although one of the major shareholders is British) and JLR is indeed owned by Tata. So with that and the collaborations between different manufacturers, who knows what country any car comes from these days?

It's true that we do provide a stabilising presence within the EU as we are in the EU but outside the Euro. The ideal result in a few weeks time for all concerned would be a vote to remain but by a slim margin. The Eurocrats aim appears to be to create a super State by making all countries the same. Unfortunately you only have to look to recent history at the USSR and Yugoslavia for instance, States that were created by merging smaller countries. They existed for 30 or 40 year before everyone could see their national identity being lost. I'm British not European and the same thing is being said in the other countries, nobody (except for some that may no longer want to be associated with their past) wants to lose their national identity. A close result here will be the catalyst for the others to start to question the way the EU is going, there has already been grumblings from the French and Germans much the same as the grumblings that have caused the referendum here. That will cause changes within the EU that should restrict the power of the Eurocrats and, hopefully, return it to the single free trade market that it was originally set up as rather than going down the route of a single State.

Incidentally, the reason why us and the French don't get on is because we are so alike. We are both always right and everyone else is wrong. The problem is that our right and their right are often not the same thing. The other difference is something I consider to be a big point in the favour of the French. Brussels comes up with another of their bonkers ideas, we argue against it while the French just shrug their shoulders and accept it. So it gets adopted. The French don't agree with it so don't bother to enforce it but that isn't the British way, we complain that it isn't our fault, it's a new regulation that has been forced on us by Brussels and then enforce it vigorously. A classic was that spirits may only be sold in measures of 25ml so all our pubs had to change their 1/3rd of a gill (equivalent to 22ml) optics. One pub around here simply put up a notice stating that spirits were sold in the Imperial measure which was the equivalent to 22ml. He was prosecuted because he wasn't complying with the new EU regulation while on the Continent you get an approximate amount that is chucked into a small measuring pot and nobody cares. It makes no difference if you are buying by the ml, the pint or the bucket as long as the customer gets the quantity they are expecting but Brussels don't seem to understand that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:16 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
It's true that we do provide a stabilising presence within the EU as we are in the EU but outside the Euro. The ideal result in a few weeks time for all concerned would be a vote to remain but by a slim margin. The Eurocrats aim appears to be to create a super State by making all countries the same. Unfortunately you only have to look to recent history at the USSR and Yugoslavia for instance, States that were created by merging smaller countries. They existed for 30 or 40 year before everyone could see their national identity being lost. I'm British not European and the same thing is being said in the other countries, nobody (except for some that may no longer want to be associated with their past) wants to lose their national identity. A close result here will be the catalyst for the others to start to question the way the EU is going, there has already been grumblings from the French and Germans much the same as the grumblings that have caused the referendum here. That will cause changes within the EU that should restrict the power of the Eurocrats and, hopefully, return it to the single free trade market that it was originally set up as rather than going down the route of a single State.

Incidentally, the reason why us and the French don't get on is because we are so alike. We are both always right and everyone else is wrong. The problem is that our right and their right are often not the same thing. The other difference is something I consider to be a big point in the favour of the French. Brussels comes up with another of their bonkers ideas, we argue against it while the French just shrug their shoulders and accept it. So it gets adopted. The French don't agree with it so don't bother to enforce it but that isn't the British way, we complain that it isn't our fault, it's a new regulation that has been forced on us by Brussels and then enforce it vigorously. A classic was that spirits may only be sold in measures of 25ml so all our pubs had to change their 1/3rd of a gill (equivalent to 22ml) optics. One pub around here simply put up a notice stating that spirits were sold in the Imperial measure which was the equivalent to 22ml. He was prosecuted because he wasn't complying with the new EU regulation while on the Continent you get an approximate amount that is chucked into a small measuring pot and nobody cares. It makes no difference if you are buying by the ml, the pint or the bucket as long as the customer gets the quantity they are expecting but Brussels don't seem to understand that.


That is one of the few statements made on this particular subject that actually makes sense. Another example of regulation that doesn't appear to be actually thought through properly would be this one > http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/28/eu-citizens-car-hire-switzerland - I can only come to the conclusion that either the people who drew that particular regulation up either didn't properly consider this as a consequence, or are trying to make not being in the EU more difficult.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:11 pm 
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Also agreed with Gilbert for the most part but not with the 'best result' sentence. I too would much prefer to see a return to the single free trade market that was originally intended rather than the new designs which also involve common laws etc. Though if it's true that 'we provide a stabilising presence within the EU as we are in the EU but outside the EU', how will our stabilising presence be effected if we become further intertwined with the EU? On the other hand if we were outside the EU the stabilising presence could/would be diminished anyway and less stability might even mean a sooner break up of the EU. I too wish our government would turn more of a blind eye to some of the nonsense regulations though even before the EU the fishing wars etc were annoying for the same reason. Eventually a more centralised EU might see an end to any flouting of rules and leave us all adhering to barmy rules with few powers to do anything about it.

At least regards the Swiss car situation, following Brexit we should be considered none EU citizens driving none EU registered cars, and as such we should be able to drive our cars across Europe much like the Swiss are allowed. But the Swiss hire car situation is a ridiculous one at the moment.

I wonder how Brexit would effect the LPG industry... All those from other countries currently based over here converting vehicles might suddenly be saying Tata themselves. If that had happened sooner, some of our British friends that were doing the same job may not have gone out of business, the average quality of installs might have gone up (not a racist comment but well known on this forum which installers are most likely to do 'thrown on in a day' installs). Some consumers might have paid an initially higher price but would be less likely to then need to pay someone else to sort out their conversion. Net result regards this industry (which I know is only a small industry) - more natives in work and spending earnings in this country so adding to this country's economy, rather than sending earnings to other countries, little effect on the conversion customer. Of course some of the foreign suppliers based over here might also be saying Tata, but I wouldn't have many concerns about being able to continue to buy from suppliers if they relocate back in their original country (in fact I spoke on the phone late last night to one such supplier, he accidentally phoned me from Poland while he was apparently drunk! But it could just as easily have been a business discussion involving me placing an order. The conversation was of course in English, which fortunately for us is the language of business). I doubt many of us believe the UK government would prevent me importing or the EU/Polish/Italian etc governments would prevent firms exporting to me. Well before the EU my dad's mate ran an engineering company, designing and manufacturing large automated machines for factories and the hotel industry.. He would regularly import parts from Italy, sometimes driving over in his own van to collect them. He is retired now but I dare say he would be able to do the same regardless of which way the vote goes. If the EU were to be 'protectionist' regards trade following Brexit, then either the policy would have been coming anyway, so if we'd stayed in the EU the same policy would have prevented us from doing as much trade with the rest of the world, or the policy would have been introduced to spite Britain, which would be a case of the EU biting it's nose to spite it's face. Cannot imagine a situation where the EU trades with the rest of the world but makes it particularly difficult to trade with Britain, and if they make it difficult to trade with the rest of the world we might benefit from being out of the EU. If in some way we act as this positive influence/advisor to the EU then what would be the cons of acting on our own advice but keeping it close to chest (as in not advising the EU) - we might prosper at their expense? In the meantime, there is no trade agreement with the US etc but I still sell DIY kits to the US almost as easily as I sell to the UK, France and various other EU and none EU countries.

On the NHS, those nurses etc are here because they earn more here than they would elsewhere. In the EU they can come and work here anyway, which is good, but so can anyone else from the EU which isn't always good. If we were outside the EU the process could go like this.. 'So you want to come and work in the UK, what skills do you have?'. 'I am a nurse'. 'Fine then, we need nurses, come on in!'. And to none EU nurses, ditto the above and add 'But I am not from the EU..', "We don't care, we need nurses and the EU doesn't dictate to us any more'. But to foreign LPG convertors we might say 'Sorry your skills are not on the short list, we know most foreign workers work hard but they spend their money abroad so don't contribute to the Brit economy much (and we are aware of that loop hole where you don't pay VAT etc!), if you were a nurse the benefits or your presence would outweigh that, but you're not a nurse and quite frankly the country is full enough'. Australia.. One of the Brit commonwealth countries, they had our ways and improved on them while our ways went the other way.

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:13 pm 
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If we are outside the EU we would have no stabilising effect at all. It's a bit like saying to Sky that you are cancelling your subscription because it's too expensive but then wanting to know why you can't watch the Monaco Grand Prix on the Sky F1 channel. You can't pick and choose, it's all or nothing. To have any effect you have to be in it and a close result will result in changes, probably far more changes than are already proposed once the knock on effect takes hold in other countries.

Why would the LPG converters from the other EU countries suddenly decide to go home? Why would they give up a decent wage and standard of living here to go back to one fifth of the wage and life on the poverty line? I disagree that most don't spend their money here. A few years ago when workers came over here for a few months to earn extra money working in the fields that may have been true but not these days. Of the ones I know, none of them send money 'back home', this is their home now and they pay tax and National Insurance just like the rest of us and they spend their wages in Tesco just like the rest of us. As for buying LPG components in EU countries, if we are outside the EU then you would have to pay import duty and VAT on them so they would no longer be cheap. In fact, nothing would be cheaper, as everything would have import duty slapped on it.

The idea of only allowing workers that we are short of in works in some countries and, to a degree, could work here. But what about the hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers that do the menial tasks that are currently done by the EU immigrants? The NHS would still need cleaners, just as the fresh fruit industry would need workers, and you aren't going to tell me that the dole scroungers are going to give up their cushy life and go out and do a real days work only to end up with less in their pocket than they get now? I admit, there are probably far fewer that fit that description than the various TV programmes would have us believe but they do exist. Just as there are far fewer EU immigrants living off benefits than the pro-Brexit campaigners would have us believe too.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:38 pm 
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Looking at Sweden, Switzerland, Iceland and Lichtenstein, all part of Europe but not the EU and all who do business with the EU does not fill me with enthusiasm, they all have to comply with many EU regulations yet don't benefit from membership.

We were in Switzerland last week, there are real concerns there about immigration.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:23 pm 
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In my experience, telling Sky you are considering cancelling your prescription can lead to them offering better terms to renew. Similar factors seem to have been involved with negotiations with the EU but the result of those negotiations were not good enough to persuade Boris or maybe half of the rest of the population. I agree it boils down to all or nothing but that is a decision forced upon us by Eurocrats, when you and I seem to agree we'd prefer a free trade scenario but not much further involvement.

Maybe they wouldn't decide to go home, maybe they would be allowed to work here for X duration without further permission being granted, unless it could be shown those running their own firms had employed Brits. Of course this would not apply to those married to Brits, but it might apply to those whom currently play the human rights card to stay here due to having pet cats etc.

Foreigners looking to make more money than they could in own countries but return home at some point with a 'nest egg' will of course spend money in Tesco, because they need to eat, but other than that food if the point is to return home with a nest egg, the logical thing to do would be to get as many hours in as possible but spend as little as possible.

You and I know the route of the menial workers problem. Government at least acknowledge the problem but 'living wage' won't be enough to persuade the native lazies into work - not when the most intelligent of those lazies can receive benefits and add a few quid by buying/selling on EBay probably outweighs the slight improvement 'living wage' might have otherwise provided. A left wing approach towards this problem might be to increase the living wage with government (i.e. taxpayer) top ups etc, a right wing approach might be to decrease the benefits cap. Regardless of left or right wing approach, an absence of people willing to work for wages that undercut the minimum that lazy Brits are prepared to work for might increase wages some firms are prepared to pay. Around here the biggest retailer in the world, which makes a very nice profit, pays minimum wage and is staffed mostly by foreigners whom have filled out the town making it very difficult for locals to be able to find somewhere to live, same as the UK all over it is now a landlord's market. I married at 22 and could have bought an admittedly decrepit house around here for £6k, now the minimum seems to be around £150k. Though both work, I don't think it likely my 20yr old son and his girlfriend would be able to afford a house if they decided to marry. House prices are governed by market forces but housing worth is only money on paper as we all need somewhere to live. A fall in housing prices would be beneficial for first time buyers or those wanting to trade up, only negative for those wanting to trade down, but money saved on funding the EU could go into state pension fund etc.

Reckon you and I have similar views really but even on this obscure forum we must watch our Ps and Qs in case the PC brigade are reading. The EU is perhaps the epitome of the PC brigade.

SImon

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:50 am 
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Just completed a trip to sarlat France covered 1550 miles. No problem in Belgium.

In france we hit the fuel crisis and had to que for an hour near Auxerre, with Gendarmes conrolling traffic- in the end, - limited to 30euros worth for all fuel types. As you go further south it gets less of a problem.In Sarlat, Dordogne there was no problem.

I took 2 adapters with me, the Acme style for Belgium and the dish style for France.My dish adapter was aluminium and not well made I had to be very carefull about tightening to stop the "O" ring blowing out, everyone looks to see whats happening!

In Belgium/France LPG is called GPL. Apart from the motorways LPG can be found at lots of filling stations in Belgium at 30cents per litre--yes 30 euro cents about 25pence.

I used 4 filling stations in Belgium and 2 used the Acme thread filler and 2 used the French style dish.You will also need a credit card for Belgium to prepay at the pumps. I use the Post office card with no problems.

In France it is best found at supermarket filling stations where it costs 70 cents per litre, similar to UK prices. Just remember that supermarkets in France close on sunday and the ones that open is only up to

12.midday


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