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 Post subject: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 233
hey eveyone. iv not given up on the lpg i have all my stuff im still lurking. haven't had a weekend yet to work on the car and its been over a month lol

any ways checking my insurance it runs out in 2 months. it will probably take me over a month still to install this.

now my problems im with e car.
dose anyone have any lpg related experiance with them?

now we all know insurance company's are bast*rds but e car are something else, they are pure scum of the earth!

they are an internet only company who carge you over £1 a min to talk to them. there website is totaly awfull and they hardly ever repply to my emails they just send you out a default email with a link to a web page thats not helpful

iv also got a feeling they will try and charge me a stupid amount to change to lpg

my question is: is it legal (or acceptable) to installed an lpg kit without telling your insurer if your not using it?

i am considering just taking the risk for a few weeks until my insurance is up for renewal. i cannot be bothered with all the hassle paperwork and cost for the sake off a few weeks for something as far as i can see im very unlikely to be done for
after all my car is lowered and has an exhaust and a couple of other bits and i havent and am not going to tell my insurance (and neater dose anyone else i know) because they (no joke) double my insurance for the slightest little mod.
(standard car with lpg £800 / car with optional extra alloy wheels, yes optional extras! £1600!)

*braces self for barrage off comments complain about people like me putting there insurance up (dispute never calming) and how i must declare everything to my insurance company or i will be put in jail for 20 years then given the death penalty and then burn in hell once iv died*


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:14 pm 
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It's pretty simple, if you don't declare modifications to your insurers, your insurance is invalid.
Whether you or anyone else finds out it has been invalidated depends on if your car gets looked at e.g. most likely if it is involved in an accident. Just when you need insurance, your insurers will wash their hands of you. Whether you go to jail / get fined / get banned / get bankrupted will probably depend on what has happened.

You already know all this, not sure what you're asking really?

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Insurers take all sorts of things into account when setting a premium, not just the car and owner profile. Obviously the type of car, the performance, the cost of repair if you bend it (hence a Focus Ghia costs more than a standard Focus as the extra bits of trim all have to be replaced if it needs to be repaired), the price and availability of parts and the likelihood of that car being involved in a claim. Consequently a Corsa being insured by an 18 year old costs far more than a more expensive, but not popular with young drivers type car for the same reason. A Corsa being driven by an 18 year old will almost certainly result in a claim whereas the number of claims made by 18 years olds driving Rover 75's is minimal so it would cost less to insure.

When it comes to modifications, a car with alloys is a more attractive proposition to a thief so is more likely to be stolen than one without. A car with big wheels, sideskirts and spoilers is more likely to get bent or stolen, so again the premium goes up. A car with LPG fitted is going to cost more to repair if it gets bent, whether the system is in use or not, so again, the premium goes up.

As far as eCar is concerned, I'll agree with you. My missus went with them as they were the cheapest. Her situation is a bit odd in that she has held a full licence in her home country for over 12 years and used to drive a company car. Since moving to the UK she could only drive on her, non-transferable foreign licence for 1 year and then had to take a UK test and get a UK licence. Insurance on her foreign licence wasn't a problem but once she had her UK provisional licence the cheapest quote we could get, from eCar, was £700 TPF&T on a £400 M reg 1.4 Vauxhall Tigra! Once she had passed her test phoned them up to tell them, expecting the premium to go down as she now holds 2 full driving licences, and they wanted an extra £340 for the remaining 8 months of the policy. They argued that as she now has a full licence she would be driving more than she had previously and would be driving unaccompanied so would be more likely to have an accident. The fact that she had driven unaccompanied in her home country for almost 10 years and in the UK on her foreign licence for a year was completely ignored. As far as they are concerned any past driving history has disappeared and she is a new driver who has just passed her driving test!

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:16 pm
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Just a word of warning, story is this, few yrs back i worked in a large bodyshop doing only insurance work, a young lad left his fiesta in with a bump on the front corner, nothing serious just bonnet,wing,bumper and headlight and because we were ins approved we went ahead and fixed the car before the assessor seen it, car went out and then the assessor landed in and asked to see the damaged parts that had be replaced , he then noticed that the car had been fitted with morette twin round lights and because the lad hadn't told the ins company they flat refused to pay out for his car, the lad fought with them for mths but they didn't budge and he ended up having to pay for the repair himself, over £1200 if i remember right..... its like this if you don't declare mods of any kind you are paying, in your case £800 odd, for a piece of paper cos thats all it will be if you have an accident,they will wipe their hands of you in a heartbeat, its your call.............


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:24 pm
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Location: barnstaple
yes uk,,,with stupid rules,,,,most europe countrys if you have lpg system fitted in your car, that do not effect your insurance price at all....
and there you insure the car,not the driver,and if your car is insured anyone can drive your car... it would be great if that would be in uk

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:25 pm 
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It's down to you if you want to take the risk. Your insurance company would still pay out to others who may claim against you in the event of an accident (although they may seek to recover their costs from you) but as others have said would use any reason they can find to avoid paying out to you.

Unlikely, but potentially a high price to pay...

I do sympathise though - I've just had a renewal notice through on a vehicle I fitted with a replacement engine (from a later model) 4 years ago. They now want £455, almost double what it was when I did the engine swap at which point they wanted an extra £30 or so to cover the extra 2bhp. Why the increase when I have an extra 4 years NCB and I live in the middle of nowhere?! If I didn't declare the (invisible) mods it would be £190.

Even more annoyingly, last winter I temporarily swapped to an identical vehicle but with the standard engine. I therefore thought the insurance would go down, but no, they wanted an extra £70 plus amendment fee as "they aren't very competitive with unmodified vehicles". When it came to swapping back to the one with the different engine I stupidly thought that then I'd get a refund. Nope, an extra £45 plus fees because "premiums have risen across the board". I just wish I'd been dishonest and not notified anyone about the engine swap - had to jump through hoops with the DVLA too!

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:12 am 
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tomas wrote:
yes uk,,,with stupid rules,,,,most europe countrys if you have lpg system fitted in your car, that do not effect your insurance price at all....
and there you insure the car,not the driver,and if your car is insured anyone can drive your car... it would be great if that would be in uk
Oh yes it does. You should see the premiums we have to pay for some of the cars we import and send to France. It was far cheaper to insure a 1957 Austin Healey fitted with a 5.7 litre V8 here than it was in France because here there are specialist insurers that deal with modified cars, in Europe there aren't.

It's no different and there are no 'stupid' UK rules only business practices which vary from one company to another no matter where they are based. Here you don't insure the driver, you insure the car and have a choice on whether you insure it for the owner only to drive, the owner and named drivers or any driver. If you want the same here, you can have it, just ask for a car to be insured for any driver. The only difference between a UK and a European motor insurance policy is that here you have to get a green card to drive in another country, a European insurance policy gives you a permanent green card.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 233
sorry for the late reply

its an interesting topic
the question i really want to talk about though is
at what point is my car officially dual fuel ?

at the moment i have a tank and not much else installed but thats not classes as an lpg kit is it!
can i drive around with a fully fited kit with just a fuse removed and clame its not finished yet?
how can i legaly install this kit in my car and drive around (on petrol) without telling my insurance?

josh


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:36 am
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Any modification you do to the car from its original spec, you have to inform to the insurer.

So you have a tank fitted, you have to tell the insurer as its not part of the original specification of the vehicle. They probably wont class the vehicle as a LPG vehicle, but your premium may still be affected as its been altered from the original spec.

Insurance companies are not stupid, if they can find out a way not to pay out, THEY WILL. So I cant see you plan about the fuse working.

Sounds obvious, but why don't you wait until you renewal and then fit the kit? If your "only" driving on petrol now, why are you fitting the kit now?

The post by Rossko sums it all up perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
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325i wrote:
Any modification you do to the car from its original spec, you have to inform to the insurer.

So you have a tank fitted, you have to tell the insurer as its not part of the original specification of the vehicle. They probably wont class the vehicle as a LPG vehicle, but your premium may still be affected as its been altered from the original spec.

so if im carrying an gas tank for my BBQ in my boot then i need to inform my insurance company? if i take a dog to the local woods for a walk should i ring them up and tell them the car has been fitted with a dog? you see my logic?
surely until its all together its just wires and pipes?
325i wrote:
Insurance companies are not stupid, if they can find out a way not to pay out, THEY WILL. So I cant see you plan about the fuse working.

the fuse was an extreme example but i was more thinking off removing the ecu and obv the tank will be bone dry?

325i wrote:
Sounds obvious, but why don't you wait until you renewal and then fit the kit? If your "only" driving on petrol now, why are you fitting the kit now?


because its taking me ages to do this (slowly and surely wins the race) and i dont want to wait for a month to start using it after i get my insurance because i want it to start paying for itself.

secondly i dont want to have to ring up my insurance company and tell them iv fitted it. i want the cheapest quote for the year and at my age it makes a big difrence. changeing your policy half way through = pass the anal lube lol
and i dont think im allowed to declare a mod im planing to do am it?


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:36 am
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joshnosh wrote:
325i wrote:
Any modification you do to the car from its original spec, you have to inform to the insurer.

So you have a tank fitted, you have to tell the insurer as its not part of the original specification of the vehicle. They probably wont class the vehicle as a LPG vehicle, but your premium may still be affected as its been altered from the original spec.

so if im carrying an gas tank for my BBQ in my boot then i need to inform my insurance company? if i take a dog to the local woods for a walk should i ring them up and tell them the car has been fitted with a dog? you see my logic?
surely until its all together its just wires and pipes?


Are you serious or is this a joke? How is a carrying a dog or a BBQ tank a modification to your car?

Your are doing something that your car is designed and intended for. Whereas your car was not originally designed to run on LPG, you are making modifications to allow this.

joshnosh wrote:
325i wrote:
Insurance companies are not stupid, if they can find out a way not to pay out, THEY WILL. So I cant see you plan about the fuse working.

the fuse was an extreme example but i was more thinking off removing the ecu and obv the tank will be bone dry?


At the end of the day its Ecar who are insuring your car, not this forum. Someone here may tell you something that is acceptable but Ecar may disagree. Therefore its best if you ask your insurance company these questions.

joshnosh wrote:
325i wrote:
Sounds obvious, but why don't you wait until you renewal and then fit the kit? If your "only" driving on petrol now, why are you fitting the kit now?


because its taking me ages to do this (slowly and surely wins the race) and i dont want to wait for a month to start using it after i get my insurance because i want it to start paying for itself.

secondly i dont want to have to ring up my insurance company and tell them iv fitted it. i want the cheapest quote for the year and at my age it makes a big difrence. changeing your policy half way through = pass the anal lube lol
and i dont think im allowed to declare a mod im planing to do am it?


Why are you not allowed to declare a mod that you are planning to do? Most people I know tell the insurer of the mod first before they do it so they dont get a shock afterwards.


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:27 pm 
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The legal definition of a car is a 4 wheeled motorised vehicle designed or adapted to carry goods and passengers (which is why if you decide to make a single seat racing car road legal it has to be classed as an invalid carriage as it cannot carry passengers). So carrying a BBQ gas bottle, a dog or anything else you wish to carry is not a modification, it is the carriage of goods. However, if you were to bolt the gas bottle (or dog) to the car, that is a modification so you need to tell them about it. You have admitted that the car is lowered and has a non-standard exhaust that you haven't told them about so you are already uninsured so why bother about the LPG system as well?

Think I'm joking? About 10 years ago a neighbour's daughter had a Ford Sierra fitted with Cosworth style side skirts and alloy wheels. The car was stolen and found two days later upside down in a ditch (unfortunately without the driver still in it). The insurance company flatly refused to pay a penny as she hadn't told them about the skirts and wheels. Their argument was that if it hadn't had them fitted it would probably not have been stolen in the first place and as she hadn't told them they had not taken this into account when fixing the premium.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:15 pm 
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joshnosh wrote:
at the moment i have a tank and not much else installed but thats not classes as an lpg kit is it!

No, its a modification involving drilling/bolting/cutting/screwing/welding/whatever.
You maybe misunderstand what the insurers want to know - they don't want to know when your LPG install is finished and working, they want to know when you modify your vehicle.

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:16 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
You have admitted that the car is lowered and has a non-standard exhaust that you haven't told them about so you are already uninsured so why bother about the LPG system as well?


the lpg system means my car is powered by explosive gas. to me it just seemed important to have this bit off the car insured in case something went wrong with it. where as my exhaust is held on by 2 bolts and not that different from standard and my lowering springs are black and to be honest dont really lower the car much they just stop it wallowing.
in the event off a big disaster involving the lpg chances are they wouldn't be able to clam that it blew up because it had a stainless steel exhaust rather than a steel one. but in the case of your neighbour if that happened to me they may well not pay out. id nether do an engine change or major things without declaring or front my insurance because that just seems stupid to me but with the other things in my eyes are a calculated risk


im guessing most people in this forum declare that there car is lpg before they start there install then?


325i wrote:
At the end of the day its Ecar who are insuring your car, not this forum. Someone here may tell you something that is acceptable but Ecar may disagree. Therefore its best if you ask your insurance company these questions.


i wish i could but i dont actually know how to talk to them since they don't reply to my emails any more!



so pritty much to sum it up as soon as i touch the car its a modification weather its finished or not meaning (ignoring my other car mods) my car is now modified. isnt insurance just fun fun fun!


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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:37 pm 
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I think you misunderstand how insurers think still.
If a tree fell on your car, of course it wouldn't be because you have changed the car from what the insurers think they are insuring or not.
But ... if you have changed the car from what the insurers think they are insuring, they will say "this is not the car we insured - it has been made different from what we know about - you have no insurance".
There doesn't have to be any common sense about how the changes have anything to do with this accident.
It has to do with you being obliged to tell them about any changes (so that they can decide what is actually relevant), and you failing in your part of the contract (by not telling them). Read your paperwork, it is a contract with clauses for you as well as them. If you break your part of the contract, it is broken, and the insurers aren't obliged to do anything else for you.

I'm sure you are not alone and a large proportion of LPG cars out there are simply uninsured, waiting for the "ooh I didn't know..." day.

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 Post subject: Re: e car?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 am
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Some insurers have clauses that "they do NOT have to be informed if the car has been professionally converted and certified" as part of a standard quote. I have 3 lpg vehicles. PM me for the details as I detest flamers and trolls.


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