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 Post subject: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:42 pm 
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Hi all,
Has anyone fitted lpg to or own a hyundai veloster?

The wife's thinking of getting one to replace the coupe. So the lpg will be coming off the hyundai coupe 2.7 V6 and refitted to the veloster 1.6i 4 cylinder.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Check if the Veloster has a direct injection engine... If it has, you won't be fitting the LPG system from the coupe to it!

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:59 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Check if the Veloster has a direct injection engine... If it has, you won't be fitting the LPG system from the coupe to it!

Simon


Hi Simon,
I don't know I will have to find out.

Thanks.

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Last edited by 57jam89 on Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:01 pm 
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Hi,
Yes it's a GDI engine. And I now know the differences between the 2 systems.

Well I'm a bit confused-
Been reading about the Vialle LPdi Direct Point Injection Kit which keeps lpg in liquid state right up to and uses the petrol injectors, so no reducer or lpg injectors but has different tank, high pressure pump and gas return to tank.

Also seen the Stag 400 DPI system which looks the same as normal lpg systems but with a new type of ECU.

But what about damage to the petrol injectors on the stag system?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:30 pm 
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57jam89 wrote:
But what about damage to the petrol injectors on the stag system?

Actually it may be the other way around! Both the Vialle and Stag system are port injection but the Stag system you've seen is designed for direct injection engines where the Vialle system is not; The Vialle system would not be suitable for a direct injection engine because the electronics are not compatible, furthermore if the electronics were compatible Vialle still would not be suitable because it would not run a 'petrol addition' via the direct petrol injectors, which the Stag does to prevent direct injectors being burned out. To further confuse matters, Vialle were almost at the point of introducing a system which used the petrol DI injectors to inject LPG instead of petrol (which would have solved both problems) but this system wasn't available at the time they went bust (this may be the system you've seen)... So it's probably best not to fit Vialle! Before they went bust I was interested in the technology, had been watching their developments and been invited to a training course on the new 'LPG through DI injectors' type system.

Don't confuse direct liquid injection with port liquid injection, the former is very uncommon, the latter is only suitable for the same port injected engines to which we usually fit vapour LPG injection systems.

The usual way to convert a DI engine is using something like the Stag system you've seen, which is a port vapour injection system designed to work with DI engines - The electronics are compatible with DI engines and they protect the DI injectors by still running a small quantity of petrol through them... But this isn't the usual type of Stag system fitted to port injection engines. This may be the clincher, though.. ECUs designed for DI engines are not generic, they will not suit all DI engines and for engines where they are compatible specific firmware to suit the specific engine must be used. Before buying, make sure the vehicle is on the shortlist of those that can be converted.

For DI engines I consider anything other than the 'LPG through DI injectors' methodology to be a fudge.. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a DI vehicle with intention of converting to LPG, so of course this also means I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a DI engine'd vehicle! But for those who already own DI engine'd vehicles, I will convert them to LPG and have had good results on those I have done.. It is just that the fudge means results will never quite be as good as a nicely LPG converted port injected engine.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Thanks for the info Simon.
The wife hasn't brought it yet so I better tell her the bad news, don't do it love!

She wants to buy a car which is under 4 years old and all the cars she likes are all have DI engines, it looks like all petrols are like this now a days.
Am I right in thinking the 5.0 V8 jag landrover are also DI?

Are these stag system for direct injection more costly?

Thanks Simon.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:40 pm 
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Those you mentioned are DI.

Vapour injection kits for DI engines are generally a fair bit more expensive than normal sequential kits, port liquid injection kits a bit more expensive than that, systems that inject LPG through DI injectors more expensive still. I've fitted a fair few Stag systems over the years but never a Stag DI system, always fitted AEB on DI engines. Nevertheless, port vapour injection on a DI engine is always going to be a fudge and DI ECU's will be more expensive.

I didn't note you'd mentioned Lpdi above, Lpdi was going to be the name of Vialle's system which used DI injectors to inject LPG. This method wouldn't be a fudge, but alas as said above they're not available (though some suppliers list them anyway).... I suppose even if they were available, buying might not be a great idea since they are not still in production.

Simon

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Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 9:15 pm 
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Thanks Simon.
My/our decision is now not to buy a DI engined car with the view to lpg it.
So now it will be a smaller petrol car (more mpg) or a slightly older car which doesn't have a DI engine so it can be lpged.

My problem is the wife wants the newest car possible and I think she should go slightly older and stay with lpg.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:49 pm 
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57jam89 wrote:
My problem is the wife wants the newest car possible and I think she should go slightly older and stay with lpg.
Just summing up - Technologies do exist to convert DI engines. Different manufactures approached the subject in one of two different ways...

The most common way is the port injection route, which can be further split into vapour injection systems and liquid injection systems. In my view, a port system on a DI engine is a fudge but good results can be had. The port injection route involves ECUs of a different type to those we usually fit on 'normal' port injected engines but which operates as a slave to the petrol system in a similar way to those we usually fit.

The other technology involves using the vehicle's own DI injectors to inject LPG instead of petrol (on port injected engines it is relatively easy to tap the manifold to inject gas vapour near petrol injectors but DI injectors are mounted directly in the cylinder head and fire directly into the cylinder - adding a DI injector specifically for LPG wouldn't be possible without redesigning the head but if it were possible this wouldn't address the problem of the petrol DI injectors being burned out when running on LPG and vice/versa). With this technology a slave ECU isn't strictly necessary because the properties of petrol and LPG are similar but mechanical hardware is necessary to switch between LPG flowing through the DI fuel rail / petrol flowing through the DI fuel rail.. So this approach is more of a challenging high pressure fuel plumbing/switching/shunting one. Since the original DI fueling strategy is maintained this approach isn't a fudge at all.

Problems though - A bit of petrol getting into the LPG tank wouldn't be of much consequence as long as the tank doesn't become overfilled but there would likely be dire consequences if LPG got into the petrol tank. It may be possible to convert a DI vehicle to run entirely on LPG but apparently one of the issues never fully overcome during development involved problems starting on gas... On particular models of vehicles it was found to be necessary to switch back to petrol for a while (until the plumbing purge procedure was completed) to prevent inability to restart the engine. The LPG into petrol tank problem has been overcome but the inability to start on gas on some vehicles wasn't fully overcome, thus preventing such kits from being universal. There is nothing to prevent a driver from turning off or stalling an engine while the plumbing to DI injectors is full of gas rather than petrol.

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Cheers Simon, I now am fully up to speed on lpg on direct injection cars.

The wife's now looking at a alfa romeo mito 1.4 multiair, I believe they call this a 'indirect injection engine', is this the same as petrol injectors the inlet manifold?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:09 am 
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57jam89 wrote:
Cheers Simon, I now am fully up to speed on lpg on direct injection cars.
The wife's now looking at a alfa romeo mito 1.4 multiair, I believe they call this a 'indirect injection engine', is this the same as petrol injectors the inlet manifold?
Thanks.
But mate, I haven't finished explaining direct injection yet :lol:
Multi-air is Alfa's equivalent of BMW's Valvetronic. This does make an install a little more complicated but not to the extent of direct injection (which it is nothing like). There won't be a problem converting it; I believe there is a factory converted version which uses Landirenzo equipment.

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:14 pm
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LPGC wrote:
57jam89 wrote:
Cheers Simon, I now am fully up to speed on lpg on direct injection cars.
The wife's now looking at a alfa romeo mito 1.4 multiair, I believe they call this a 'indirect injection engine', is this the same as petrol injectors the inlet manifold?
Thanks.
But mate, I haven't finished explaining direct injection yet :lol:
Multi-air is Alfa's equivalent of BMW's Valvetronic. This does make an install a little more complicated but not to the extent of direct injection (which it is nothing like). There won't be a problem converting it; I believe there is a factory converted version which uses Landirenzo equipment.

Simon


Sorry Simon I thought you had finished on the direct injection.

Yes there is some factory lpg mitos but I can't find one for sale!
So the lpg from the wife's hyundai coupe 2.7 v6 could be swap onto the mito then?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:18 pm 
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Could but without knowing what parts are on the coupe a different system might be a lot more suitable (in terms of ECU and injectors).

On a lesser note: The Alfa may feature start and stop, your old system may always take X seconds to changeover to LPG following stop/start but a new system would start on gas. Valvetronic type engines don't have manifold vacuum but some systems won't switch to LPG unless they see manifold vacuum (unlikely). Some 6/7/8 cylinder ECUs won't work on 4 cylinder engines. Likely you'd need smaller nozzles for your injectors anyway.

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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 Post subject: Re: Hyundai veloster?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:23 pm 
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Well she didn't buy a hyundai veloster so that ends this thread!

Thanks.

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