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 Post subject: Etagas software
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:34 pm 
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Has got a copy they could let me have?

I got hold of an old system, I want to experiment and see if I can get it to run a motorcycle

Thanks in advance


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:56 pm 
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download it from here

http://www.jdmfsm.info/Auto/--General--/Gas/


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:30 am 
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Would normally need a lambda probe and tps for Etagas to work properly.
Depending on size of bike engine cylinders will probably need some very small nozzles for the metering unit.
Etagas is only really appropriate for engines where manifold pressure correlates pretty well with engine load, as is the case with most car engines. On engines with a comparatively lumpy cam such as high revving race modded car engines and some bike engines this won't be the case. For those engines, fuelling based on tps versus rpm (AlphaN) or based on air flow versus rpm works better. Though Etagas is calibrated on rpm, the fact that it's fuelling depends on consistent pressure differential between gas and manifold but doesn't have a pressure sensor (or any way of compensating for discrepancies of consistent pressure differential) means it could struggle to deliver consistent fuelling for quickly fluctuating manifold pressure at low rpm - this would be noticeable as poor idle. Probably not a problem on a bike that has plenty torque at low rpm, probably more a problem on a bike where all the power is at high rpm. In terms of LPG fuel systems, mixer systems correlate closely with petrol AFM type systems, Etagas type continuos LPG injection and standalone pulsed LPG injection systems such as old AEB 'C' systems correlate closely with petrol systems that base fuelling on manifold pressure (versus rpm), there isn't much that correlates closely with petrol AlphaN (TPS versus rpm).

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:29 pm 
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Thanks for the link Hitman, I just downloaded a copy.

Interesting points for consideration Simon. Getting a decent idle without a flat spot just off idle seems to be a recurring issue with mixer systems I have tried on bike engines. A smallish mixer sorts it but then it restricts the top end somewhat.


I am interested to see what can be done with these old generation systems seeing as all modern stuff seems to need an OEM ecu to slave off.

One limitation I have just noticed: the Etagas software only recognises up to 10,000rpm (redline is 13k). I suppose the way to get round this is to choose 8 cylinder and have half the actual rpm being read?


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:56 pm 
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Just checking out the software. Seems a bit basic...

Anyone know what the parameter at the bottom is? The one labelled 'unscrew/screw'
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:33 pm 
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It refers to pressure (unscrew / screw in pressure adjustment on reducer). Etagas doesn't have a built in pressure sensor but during setup you're supposed to connect an Etagas specific pressure sensor. I have the Etagas pressure sensor (pic below, bit of an LPG relic these days!) but have never had need to use it as I can read between the lines to set pressure correctly anyway. Without the sensor connected the screw/unscrew reading should be ignored.

Image

Basically you need combination of nozzles and pressure that allow the fuel distributor (which has 2 stepper motors) to provide correct mixture for any rpm/throttle combination while keeping within it's working range. Ideally the stepper motors shouldn't need to have to move much at all, or at least not move much from default position for a given rpm when load changes at that rpm. You can see stepper motor position and learned rpm related default stepper positions in other software screens. Etagas principle of operation involves the reducers being a special design that provide rising gas/manifold relative pressure with rising manifold pressure (most reducers provide same relative pressure regardless of manifold pressure) so that as manifold pressure increases fuelling increases even without movement of stepper motors. The principle of operation is the reason why I implied you might struggle if manifold pressure isn't closely related to airflow, which might be the case where an engine is very far from being 'on cam' while at low rpm. A lot of Etagas reducers will be on their last legs and a rebuild kit will not make an old reducer a new one (because you don't get a new housing or jets both of which might be worn). There is a default position for each step in rpm, there are no default positions based on throttle position but at idle rpm with no throttle TPS a fiddle factor can be applied.

A few years ago Autogas2000 seemed to be selling off old Etagas stock cheap but I don't think the sale extended to reducers, more ECU's etc. Thing is these days the proper price for Etagas bits is expensive especially compared to the usual modern systems we fit, while Etagas primary input (manifold pressure) is the same primary input that a modern day none slave system would use, and wouldn't expect either to work great on an engine where manifold pressure at certain rpm doesn't correspond too closely to airflow. I can see a way where a modern pulsed electronic standalone system could be adapted so that in place of reading manifold pressure it reads TPS, which would change the system to AlphaN type, but Etagas compensates fuelling for rising manifold pressure mostly by mechanical means (design of reducer) and could not be adapted to AlphaN nearly so easily.

Yes you could set a different number of cylinders so ECU reads only half RPM but you may find you need the fiddle factors at low rpm more than at high rpm.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:42 am 
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Thanks again for the info Simon, very useful indeed.

I was not aware of the reducer increasing flow with increasing MAP. I just bench tested my Etagas reduced with compressed air and a Mityvac on the vacuum port. I jetted down the outlet to around 4mm and turned on the air. The effect was clear: flow decreased as more vacuum was applied. Seemed like a nice degree of control too. I reckon the Etagas system is worth a try, even if it doesn't work well I will learn something!

How critical is the nozzle position on these type of systems? I have some M5 threaded ports in the inlets already for carb balancing but they are at 90 degrees to the air flow...Also unlike car engines, bikes have one carb per cylinder. Therefore there is no plenum chamber. I wonder what implications this will have on setup?


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:13 am 
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I haven't made any measurements to check MAP characteristics yet :oops: but I have researched the types of petrol FI systems used on Motorcycles. Apparently both speed density and alpha-N have been used, some systems take inputs from both...


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:29 pm 
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Marcos, the key is in 'relative'.. Most reducers output pressure relative to manifold pressure (i.e. reducer set at 1 bar is reducer pressure constant 1 bar above manifold pressure), so with most reducers you'll see outlet pressure increase if you apply pressure to the vacuum reference, but Etagas reducers supply increasing relative pressure against manifold pressure.

Nozzle position not usually as critical as on pulsed systems because flow of gas to nozzle is constant (never going to be a case of gas pulse timing compared to intake valve opening incorrect).

90deg to airflow shouldn't be a problem, get them all the same though. Carb per cylinder and no plenum means pressure in runner between valve and throttle plate will fluctuate as valve opens/closes much more so than with a plenum. Also begs the question where you'll pick up consistent manifold pressure reference from for the reducer - Tapping another hole in each runner and piping them all together to some sort of little vac chamber which in turn is connected to the reducer could help. This is similar to what BMW do on some of their M series engines that have individual throttle per cylinder (and short runners / otherwise no plenum to speak of) for petrol pressure reg (or map sensor or evap purge).

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:42 pm 
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I've been talking about Etagas in PMs with another forum user and have taken some pics for him of an Etagas distributor unit I removed from a vehicle some time ago. Better to post pics on forum than in PMs so others can see them too. I've numerated the pics for easy reference.

Pic 1 Distributor unit
Image

Pic 2 what I'm calling side A port stepper removed
Image

Pic 3 side A stepper
Image

Pic 4 what I'm calling side B port stepper removed
Image

Pic 5 side B stepper
Image

Pic 6 gas inlet port inlet removed
Image

Pic 7 gas outlet port nozzle plate removed
Image

So it looks like side A has most effect on incoming flow and side B most effect on outgoing flow (which in turn of course will depend on incoming flow, in fact they'll both depend on each other..) .

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:07 pm 
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As it was me that had asked Simon about the workings of an Etagas system, I figured I may as well carry on here. My interest was because my mate in France has recently acquired a P38 Range Rover fitted with an Etagas system but it ran very roughly with a strong smell of gas. I was down there this weekend so we set about getting it sorted.

I knew it was an Etagas from photos he'd sent me when he first got the car.

Image

Two of the early metal bodied manifold units and a reducer with loads of blue tape on the wiring (not exactly CoP11 compliant then). In addition the coolant plumbing was in parallel with the heater matrix with about 8 potential leaks and the pipework run high up making it the highest point in the cooling system. This probably explained why it only switched over to gas sometimes as it only sometimes got sufficient flow to get it hot enough. Time for a bit of maintenance I think.

Image

I told him that he probably needed to give the steppers a good clean with carb cleaner so he got stuck in to that. The gas hoses were rock hard and cracked with age so he ordered some hose from Tinley Tech and replaced the main feeds from the reducer to the manifolds. It still ran very badly and smelled strongly of gas. I told him not to try it again until I got there to have a look at it.

Started off by replacing the coolant hoses with nice new hose I took down with me and fitted that with new reducers to connect the 16mm hose for the reducer to the 19mm hose on the Range Rover heater hoses. He'd also ordered some new 4mm hose to go between the manifolds and inlet spuds as the ones on there were also hard and cracked but hadn't done anything with that. So while I get stuck into the coolant hoses, he started taking the old small hoses off. They were rigid and the only way they would come off was by squeezing them on one side with a pair of pliers so they cracked and came off in bits. All was going well until one of the brass nozzles in the manifold snapped off flush with the manifold.....

We found that a T15 Torx bit was a bit too fat to go into the remainder of the nozzle but by grinding the end of it to a point it could be tapped into the brass and the 5mm threaded piece unscrewed. Then we tapped an M5 thread onto the end of a bit of copper brake pipe and screwed that into the hole instead so we had something to connect the hose to. Carried on and, a little more carefully, removed and replaced the remaining hoses. Time to try it and see what happens.

Ran the engine until the coolant hoses to the reducer were nice and warm and blipped the throttle, the LED on the switch came on to show it running on gas, it ran roughly and I got a facefull of Propane out of the heater vents. That's not right. So time to look for a leak. Soapy water squirted around showed nothing. Tried energising the tank solenoid and no leak. Tried energising the reducer solenoid and got a very big leak from the reducer although still couldn't see where it was coming from so the reducer came off to be put on the bench. We figured that if we couldn't find where it was leaking from we could always use an air compressor instead of gas. Undid the screws holding the top on and found a pristine looking diaphragm and a big spring. Nothing appears to be wrong with that. Unscrewed this diaphragm and found another one underneath it. Alongside that was a 6mm drilled hole in the reducer body so we figured that if this diaphragm was allowing gas through then it would be coming out of that hole. Took the diaphragm off and it was split. Now we had a problem so thought that even if it only lasted a few minutes we should be able to confirm the problem if we could get it to seal. So both sides of it were coated in silicon sealer and we went for lunch.

I finished my coffee and went to join him in the workshop, took one look at the diaphragm and asked what the hell he'd done to it. He'd decided to improve the seal by cutting a piece of rubberised canvas from a boat cover and sticking that to the old diaphragm. Not sure this is going to work but there's two chances, Bob Hope and no hope probably. Put the reducer back together and bolted it back onto the car. Energised the solenoids and both opened but no smell of gas. Started the engine, got it warm, blipped the throttle, it changed over and ran like a dog. But at least it ran. It sounded to be on no more than 6 cylinders so I plugged my code reader in and looked at the lambda outputs. Bank 1 was switching nicely but bank 2 was showing permanently lean. Turned it off and pulled one of the steppers out of the bank 2 manifold (the one Simon has called stepper B). It looked fine but we had no way of knowing if it was or if it was doing anything so decided to swap it with the one from bank 1 manifold. That way if the problem moved we'd know if it was a dodgy stepper at least. Swapped them over and started the engine again, blipped the throttle and all 8 cylinders burst into life on gas. We'd cracked it! Whether the spring or something had jammed when he'd taken it out to clean it or it simply hadn't been making a good electrical contact we've no idea, but it was working so we weren't going to play about with it any more.

The gas pressure is way out so causing the fuel trims to shift quite a lot when run on gas so now it runs poorly on petrol when it first changes over as the trims have to reset themselves again abut as the diaphragm is double the thickness it was that should be sorted once the new one arrives from Autogas 2000 along with a new nozzle to replace the broken one.

The only remaining problem with it now is that the gauge reads permanently full but that may have something to do with the two wires (green and white if I remember correctly) from the ECU not being connected to anything, just left dangling near the bulkhead. He has since had a brilliant idea and cut a hole in the boot floor and put a bit of perspex in it so he can see the gauge on the tank just by opening the boot. However this does mean that he's had to leave the gas tight lid off the 4 hole tank so I've pointed out that this isn't such a good idea. If anyone recognises the gauge type and can tell me how it needs to be connected, it would be much appreciated......

Image

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:37 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
The only remaining problem with it now is that the gauge reads permanently full but that may have something to do with the two wires (green and white if I remember correctly) from the ECU not being connected to anything, just left dangling near the bulkhead. He has since had a brilliant idea and cut a hole in the boot floor and put a bit of perspex in it so he can see the gauge on the tank just by opening the boot. However this does mean that he's had to leave the gas tight lid off the 4 hole tank so I've pointed out that this isn't such a good idea. If anyone recognises the gauge type and can tell me how it needs to be connected, it would be much appreciated......

Image


Looks like one of these

http://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts/4-hole-level-sender-0-90-ohms-for-livello-valve/

Same one used on a lot of Necam Factory fits, where 4 hole tanks seem more common - I've seen them in both 0-90 and other resistances, Theres usually a sticker on the back of it to denote which it is (theres a few on Tinley of different specs). On those its connected with one side (black i think, can't tell for sure without emptying the boot to check, but if i get chance to do so I'll have a look if it helps) to the same ground as the solenoid coil, other side to the gauge feed. Of course if someone can identify the inputs the etagas should have on those wires it will probably help you more.


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:53 pm 
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This might help

Etagas wiring diagrams PL

Połączenie z portem szeregowym - diagnostic interface
Kontroler ciśnienia - Map Sensor
Czujnik temperatury - Temperatur Sensor
Pomarańczowy - Orange
Niebieski - Blue
Czerwony - Red
Czarny - Black
Ż?łty - Yellow
Biały - White
Zielony - Green
Czujnik poziomu - Level sensor
Fioletowy - violet
Szary - Gray
Brązowy - Brown
Masa - Ground
Sygnał obrot?w - RPM
Emulator wtryskiwaczy - Elektroinjector simulator

It does suggest the white and green wires goto the level sender looking at the below diagram

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:14 pm 
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I've got that diagram already but all it shows is that the white and green wires go to the gauge. What I don't know is, if one wire is earthed, which of the two dangling wires needs to be connected to the other one? I know that on AEB stuff the way they are connected is different for different gauges so would assume that the Etagas is the same. AEB shows the black wire at the gauge grounded and both the white and green wires connecting to the green one. I'll suggest he tries that and see what it shows then. At least with the gauge on the tank he will know what to expect it to read.

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:53 pm 
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Thought that might be the case - hopefully Simon or someone else whos dealt with Etagas can advise. It might be worth testing the gauge with a meter if hes still having problems.

Alternatively if he has a meter (I'd assume you aren't close enough at the moment to do it yourself) then it might be worth looking at the voltage coming down the two wires? If anything at all is there?


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:24 pm 
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Afraid I'm not close enough any more, I drove the 952 miles from his place to mine on Monday night/Tuesday morning...... I've suggested he connects the dangling wires to the green from the gauge. I am assuming there will be a wire run from back to front. If you look at the picture of the reducer, you can see what looks like a lump of blue tape wrapped around nothing and in the background you can make out the dangling cable with a matching lump of blue tape. I suspect that if he connects those two together it'll do something. Whether it will do anything useful is a different matter......

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:45 pm 
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Well only one way your likely to find out as you've said - You can only assume it did work originally, wiring does look rather dodgy with lots of insulation tape so seems reasonable to assume it was connected originally.

Seems like someone has been playing who had similar skills to the previous person who's been playing about with the Discovery I brought recently - Only running on 6 (may not have even been that many) - he'd replaced the spark plugs, and suspected the leads to be at fault, Replaced those as the first job, only to discover that the spark plugs he'd replaced weren't even tight!. Its been on lpg at some point before, though isn't currently. Had been described as having an lpg tank still in place, which now I've got round to looking at it definitely isn't an LPG tank, its an air tank of some description thats not connected to anything now.


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:05 am 
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May even have been the same person. When he first got it a few weeks ago, he said it ran OK on petrol but very rough on gas so I suggested he started by treating it to a set of plugs. Half of those were loose too. It's not as if they are even difficult to get at either.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:33 am 
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Wiring diagram I've got is probably like yours, just says white and green to the sender but this doesn't necessarily explain how.

The sender unit is Livello 0-90ohm type.

On some early stuff the white and green might be to either side of the sender but on by far the majority of stuff where there's a white and a green you connect the black sender wire to earth, connect only the white for 0-50ohm sender (isolate the gree) or twist white and green together to connect to the sender for 0-90ohm.

Where the above is relevant the white wire goes directly to the ECU's level sensing AD convertor (so is always used) and is also pulled toward 5v by ECU internal connection to 5v via a resistor, so the sender unit and the internal resistor form a voltage dividing circuit with the white wire voltage changing according to fuel level. Never looked into it much but believe the green wire probably just pulls the voltage down a bit via ECU internal connection to earth via a resistor (for use with 90ohm sender instead of 50ohm sender). The AD convertor reads 0 for 0 volts on the white wire to 255 for 5v on the white wire, so with sender reading full (90ohms) the AD convertor reads somewhere halfway between 0 and 255, usually just a bit above 100. This is why with no sender attached and 0-90ohm sender selcted in software you get an AD reading of well above 100 so gauge shows full tank. 50Ohm senders work the opposite way around with somewhere around 100 for empty tank and close to zero for full.

So is it white and green across the sender / or sender to earth and then white and green together to the other sender wire... Another point is that some of the early documentation got it wrong regards how to connect up a 50ohm sender, but where there's a white and a green and you're using a 90ohm sender it generally works to twist ECU white and green together (and to none black wire on the sender) and black wire on sender to earth. Incorrect documentation was one of the reasons why I always opted for a 0-90sender (in days when 0-50s were just as popular), even for open loop mixer systems where using a 0-90sender instead of a 0-50ohm sender involves programming the changeover switch, less chance of getting it wrong!

A way to check that black to earth and twisted white and green to other sender wire is correct would be by testing with a potentiometer in place of sender or just by comparing reading with twisted white and green earthed / with twisted white and green to earth via 90ohm resistor.

Nice work getting the Etagas system working Gilbert!

Petrol trims are likely to drift to an extreme over time even with the Etagas working perfectly since Etagas is a standalone system; Just aim to get lambda flick occuring as soon as possible following any change in engine rpm/throttle position. Following any changes to the reducer this might involve some calibration via software. Since Etagas slowly adjusts it's own 'trims' over time, the stuck stepper might have caused it's trims to be incorrectly learned. I would reset the ECU and do a fresh calibration from scratch, software pretty much steers you through the process.

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Etagas software
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:51 am 
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I edited my above post after reading through Gilberts post a bit more thoroughly while breaking off to eat a bacon sarnie ;-) Now answered a bit more thoroughly.

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