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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:40 pm 
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hi, we are having our 2004 bmw x5 3ltr converted to lpg on monday. i asked the fitters where the filler valve would be. they said that due to new regs. they can't put it in the side bumper.
we want it as discreet as possible.and to meet regs. where can we have it placed?
i have seen some x5s with the filler inside the petrol cap, and also inside the tow bar flap in the middle of the rear bumper.
thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:43 am 
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I've fitted a lot in the towbar flap, a very discreet position if used with a square capped filler and allows filling from a pump at either side of the vehicle. The customer of the one I'm converting (well, re-converting.. see the link below) at the moment is having the usual type 70mm round housing in the wing to the rear of the petrol filler. I made the hole, filed the notches, filed it smooth and gave it several coats of paint yesterday, will be fitting the filler today now the paint has set so it won't rust.

http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14160

Simon

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:40 pm 
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Forgive my ignorance here; but I've seen a couple of posts recently on various forums where folks have been told a filler cannot be installed in a bumper due to 'new regs' or a 'change in the law'.

Have I missed something - as I'm only aware of the 2003 COP11 amenment 3 (http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4D42D8BB2F8EE.pdf) that stated:

Quote:
3.3.2 Tank Fill Valves and Fill Connector

Amend the second paragraph to read:

The fill connector should be located so as to be readily accessible for the user.

Petrol fillers are often positioned approximately 800 mm above the ground. Fillers mounted at a height of less than 500 mm above the ground are likely to prove awkward to use

It should not be necessary to keep any passenger door, bonnet or load compartment door open during the filling process.

No gas should enter the vehicle during filling or on connection or disconnection of the filling gun. A gas tight sealing “boot” should be fitted to the part of the filler assembly inside the vehicle unless other effective means of ensuring a seal during service are provided.

The fill connector should not be fitted within 250 mm of any exhaust outlet.

The fill connector should be mounted securely and be able to withstand the forces applied during filling and in the event of unintended driveaway with the filling
hose still connected (~500 N).


I don't see anything in that amendment that says the filler must be at a given height above the ground - or higher in order to satisfy it being readily accessible, just that it ought to be. Assuming then that your filler is 250mm or more away from an exhaust outlet, and you are satisfied that the filler is readily accessible - what's the problem? Are fitters interpreting that regulation and saying the filler must be 500mm or more off the ground?

EDIT (again): Thinking again, I'm guessing it must be to do with minimumn height, distance from exhaust - and that COP11 appeares not to permit use of adapters (meaning you couldn't install the smaller filler that requires an adapter behind the existing filler flap) - but I'll let the fitters chime in - I'm a noob...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:37 pm 
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Your edit has probably hit the nail on the head. Modern plastic bumpers make it easy to fit the filler but for it to comply you need to make up a fairly hefty bracket to go behind it to attach to something solid. A lot of fiddling around for an installer who wants to get the job done quickly so it's easier to say that it can't be done.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:24 pm 
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kayble wrote:
Forgive my ignorance here; but I've seen a couple of posts recently on various forums where folks have been told a filler cannot be installed in a bumper due to 'new regs' or a 'change in the law'.

Have I missed something - as I'm only aware of the 2003 COP11 amenment 3 (http://www.uklpg.org/uploads/DOC4D42D8BB2F8EE.pdf) that stated:

Quote:
3.3.2 Tank Fill Valves and Fill Connector

Amend the second paragraph to read:

The fill connector should be located so as to be readily accessible for the user.

Petrol fillers are often positioned approximately 800 mm above the ground. Fillers mounted at a height of less than 500 mm above the ground are likely to prove awkward to use

It should not be necessary to keep any passenger door, bonnet or load compartment door open during the filling process.

No gas should enter the vehicle during filling or on connection or disconnection of the filling gun. A gas tight sealing “boot” should be fitted to the part of the filler assembly inside the vehicle unless other effective means of ensuring a seal during service are provided.

The fill connector should not be fitted within 250 mm of any exhaust outlet.

The fill connector should be mounted securely and be able to withstand the forces applied during filling and in the event of unintended driveaway with the filling
hose still connected (~500 N).


I don't see anything in that amendment that says the filler must be at a given height above the ground - or higher in order to satisfy it being readily accessible, just that it ought to be. Assuming then that your filler is 250mm or more away from an exhaust outlet, and you are satisfied that the filler is readily accessible - what's the problem? Are fitters interpreting that regulation and saying the filler must be 500mm or more off the ground?

EDIT (again): Thinking again, I'm guessing it must be to do with minimumn height, distance from exhaust - and that COP11 appeares not to permit use of adapters (meaning you couldn't install the smaller filler that requires an adapter behind the existing filler flap) - but I'll let the fitters chime in - I'm a noob...


I'd rather they tried to standardise the sitings of the pumps on the forecourts - I've discovered a couple of places where its near damn impossible to fill up due to the pump being somewhere that doesn't really make any sense (the local station i tend to end up blocking two pumps with any of the three cars i've got when filling - two are in the rear righthand wing, the other is on a towbar mount). The only time i find the towbar mounted one to be a problem is when the pump is infront of the petrol pump on the front set of pumps if theres two - I have to pull so far forward it blocks the exit off the other pumps at Heston for example).

Generally the towbar mount I find less of a problem overall - as it means I never have to reverse up to the wrong side of the pump when its broken (or some idiot is busy buying half the shop after spilling diesel all over the floor whilst blocking the only pump).

And as you've already said - Theres a couple of key words - it isn't specifically forbidden to mount it below 500mm, but could present later problems hence not advised - This would probably be intended as more of a prompt to check its really what the customer wants before drilling holes. Though you can see some aspects of their installation spec is preferable to whats allowed elsewhere (last week was filling up in Leighton Buzzard - the other side of the pump a Bulgarian registered car pulls up to fill, and hes got the boot open whilst doing so - I think from whats been said by others thats their requirements when refilling over there to prevent a build up from any leaks!)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:08 pm 
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Brian_H wrote:
Though you can see some aspects of their installation spec is preferable to whats allowed elsewhere (last week was filling up in Leighton Buzzard - the other side of the pump a Bulgarian registered car pulls up to fill, and hes got the boot open whilst doing so - I think from whats been said by others thats their requirements when refilling over there to prevent a build up from any leaks!)
When I drove to Belarus about 6 years ago, everywhere East of Poland insisted that the boot was left open when filling and most would not allow you to fill yourself, they came out and did it for you. Last month I drove to Latvia and back and everywhere I stopped was the same as over here, self service and nobody asked me to leave the boot open.

I did recently see (at one of my local filling stations) an interesting one. A Romanian registered Peugeot 406 Coupe pulled up on the other side of the pump to me, opened the boot and filler was attached to the top of the boot (the boot roof, the underside of the rear shelf). He filled up and as he removed the filler the gas that always escapes drops into the boot. His answer to allow it to disperse was simply to leave the boot open while he went to pay for the gas......

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:59 am 
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Kayble asked me to comment here, not much to add on the main points since Brian and Gilbert bet me to posting, agreed with their points.

No law says filler must be X height, COP11's 'awkward to use' info isn't really a must/failure point though there will be installers that would fail a vehicle based on this grey advice. People will have their own ideas on what's awkward to use, convenience will factor into what's considered awkward for some - Waiting in a forecourt que for a pump at the correct side of their car to become free as in Gilbert's spilled diesel bloke scenario (the other option reversing the vehicle up to the pump if there is one, if possible on a busy or tight forecourt or if possible with the caravan on the back) might seem more awkward than a filler at the rear of the vehicle that allows filling from either side (and might prevent waiting for diesel bloke) even if the side filler would be at waist height and rear filler would be near the ground... personal preference.

For most people I don't think low fillers are much of a problem, particularly if the customer asks for that location (often as only option to prevent a 70mm hole being made in the vehicle body or as the only way of fitting filler at the rear to allow either side filling). A lot of modern UK fillers are self retracting so pull on the vehicle's filler (maybe not so often the case 13 years ago when above quoted COP11 amendment was written..), with a low filler if the fill gun is attached upside down the shearing force on the vehicle's filler can be lower than would be the case with a higher mounted filler and the fill gun attached in the usual orientation.. less force on the vehicle filler can't be a bad thing. Again on self retracting fill guns - out of all filler mounting positions the least pull on the filler can be when the filler is mounted at the rear with the bayonet vertical instead of horizontal like on my own car... but I'm not supposed to say that because bayonet's should be horizontal according to COP11 :lol:

So why must bayonets be horizontal? Reason might be so that we (well maybe not us, maybe less mechanically minded people..) all become familiar with fitting the gun in the same orientation on any vehicle we fill - but in case of square capped filler (usual type mounted at vehicle rear with a few exceptions like P38's) when the cap is removed we can immediately see the bayonet orientation (something you probably can't see with low mounted 70mm round type fill housing) while in case of removable (adaptor) type fill point the bayonet orientation could be at any angle, adaptor types frowned upon too.. Adaptor types may be frowned upon because they might leak or snap.. if that's true then same point builds on my filler gun pull point.

Easy to fit fillers in most plastic bumpers, others can be too curved, or factory reinforcement or other obstruction behind them would prevent. Seldom see fillers with additional installer fitted bracket and even where this is done the bracket is usually just a token and doesn't really help much. Often see fillers in very flexible bumpers fitted close to an original bumper support where the bumper is less flexy. If a bracket is made to support a filler in a bumper, how strong should it be given that the vehicle manufacturer might have designed the vehicle so that the bumper is supposed to give in the event of a knock? On the other hand, if an installer were to remove some vehicle manufacturer fitted bumper reinforcement to fit a filler, that too could be considered the installer has removed a vehicle manufacturer's safety feature in the same sense as removing a door's side impact beam and not replacing it while working inside the door. One of the biggest points against filler movement would be in the case copper fill pipe was used, which would eventually snap due to fatigue, same point wouldn't apply with considered routing of JIC or Faro fill pipe.

I'd trust that whatever filler position Kayble chooses will have carefully considered safety, awkwardness and convenience, better than any pre laid down rules that are supposed to be relevant to every install could.

Simon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Actually Si, was hoping for your input on my BMW thread (the 740i thread - and latest question re: securing the tank)? This one isn't my car!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:51 pm 
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kayble wrote:
Actually Si, was hoping for your input on my BMW thread (the 740i thread - and latest question re: securing the tank)? This one isn't my car!
Ahh of course! :roll: Well, I've commented on your thread too mate. :lol:

Simon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:20 am 
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so can the lpg filler be placed in the tow panel under current regs? i have seen this done in the past.



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:22 am 
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as shown in this picture


http://www.pfjones.co.uk/images/detaile ... 1390406755


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:56 am 
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Dibbles wrote:


As Simon has said its down to the interpretation of the person certifying it/adding it onto the uklpg register if required - though if they are also the ones fitting it you should be fine.

Given its outside the vehicle interior there shouldn't be any venting issues to consider, though they can be overcome fairly easily if needed. Its protected from the weather/dirt etc so should be ok on that front. Quite a number of people i've seen filling with fillers below the recommnded 500mm height, its only recommended though. As long as it isn't low enough that catching any pipework on the ground/speed humps is an issue then it should be fine.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:58 pm 
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You can see where Simon installed my filler (under rear bumper) and the rest of the installation in the photos here - well pleased with it

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/ ... rol-gauge/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:23 am 
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Some of my X5 customers that don't use a towbar choose to have a similar type filler to Sorcerer's (Hi John!) but fitted centrally and protruding only a little through the tow hitch cover. The handle hole in the middle of the cover is slightly modded (mostly to make hole for the gas pipe), the cover then threaded over the fill bracket and refitted before the brass filler is attached. This setup looks very neat and discrete while there is no need to remove the tow hitch cover and no need to use adaptors to fill. This should pass anyone's inspection.

In case owner used tow bar I wouldn't advise having the filler in this area - Wouldn't really be possible for similar setup to the above (protruding through plastic cover) with the filler mounted off centre, would probably need to disconnect trailer to fill.

In Dibbles pic it seems the tow hitch cover must be removed and then maybe a long adaptor screwed in to fill (it looks like the filler is quite recessed behind the plastic hitch cover?)... I can see how the shape of the X5's rear could make it difficult to fill if a standard bayonet is fitted behind the plastic cover (not protruding from it) and an extending adaptor isn't used. Can also see how a bayonet protruding off-centre of the plastic cover would prevent the plastic cover from being refitted, without the plastic cover fitted the look of the car from behind would be spoiled, would look silly without the removable towbar fitted. A lot of installers would fail an install that needs to use adaptors but as someone said - they might fit fillers that need to use adaptors themselves and pass them.

Converted many dozens of X5's, every engine option, fillers fitted either as just said or in the wing.

Simon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:58 am 
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LPGC wrote:
In case owner used tow bar I wouldn't advise having the filler in this area - Wouldn't really be possible for similar setup to the above (protruding through plastic cover) with the filler mounted off centre, would probably need to disconnect trailer to fill.
Never had to disconnect the trailer to fill mine, just need to make sure the trailer is reasonably straight. My filler is fitted in the flat provided for the second electrical socket if twin electrics are fitted.

Image

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
LPGC wrote:
In case owner used tow bar I wouldn't advise having the filler in this area - Wouldn't really be possible for similar setup to the above (protruding through plastic cover) with the filler mounted off centre, would probably need to disconnect trailer to fill.
Never had to disconnect the trailer to fill mine, just need to make sure the trailer is reasonably straight. My filler is fitted in the flat provided for the second electrical socket if twin electrics are fitted.]
Agreed Richard but there's more of a bumper overhang on an X5, makes access a bit more difficult to start with, the X5's plastic cover is at a lower level than your filler so filling with fill gun the usual way up could be a bit more difficult because the fill pipe from the gun is going to approach the ground, with horizontal bayonet at this level it would be better to attach the gun upside down. If the filler doesn't protrude from the plastic cover then gun would have to be usual way up or sideways because the bumper would be in the way for upside down filling. If the filler is sideways then with a trailer attached filling could only be done from the nearside or at least with gun pointing to nearside. I mentioned P38's as a bit of an exception in terms of often having round fillers fitted at the rear, fitted loads like that myself. It may still be possible to fill with trailer attached on the X5 in Dibbles pic if trailer is straight (or during right turn) but if it's been fitted like I think it's been fitted I wouldn't think it very handy even without a trailer.

Simon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:41 pm 
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I can't see it being any more difficult than mine. Tow hitches should be at the same height so a trailer sits level no matter what is towing it and the pic that Dibbles posted has the filler above the height of the ball which, in theory, should make it higher than mine. I do tend to fit the filler gun upside down if I've got a trailer and am filling with a pump on the right so the hose goes over the trailer hitch.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:32 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
I can't see it being any more difficult than mine. Tow hitches should be at the same height so a trailer sits level no matter what is towing it and the pic that Dibbles posted has the filler above the height of the ball which, in theory, should make it higher than mine. I do tend to fit the filler gun upside down if I've got a trailer and am filling with a pump on the right so the hose goes over the trailer hitch.
Good point about tow bar heights being the same but I can still see a filler fitted hidden behind that plastic cover being more difficult to use than yours.

Anyway, just had another look at Dibbles picture and it seems there isn't a fill point in Dibbles pic at all... what looks like it might be a threaded fill point (to accept a threaded adaptor) might actually be the X5's removable towing eye bracket, I've just taken a couple of pics of the X5 I've got in the yard at the moment, the pic below is a bit clearer than Dibbles pic and shows the towing eye fixing point.

Image

And below is a side view of the back of the car. Even in this pic it seems if a bayonet filler were fitted hidden behind (again actually in front of) the plastic trim cover then access wouldn't be great. Might not even be able to use fill guns with hand shields because the bumper might be in the way. Would in any case be reaching below rear bumper to attach fill gun, not much clearance between fingers and bumper.

Image[/URL]

When I first started fitting fill points at the rear of X5's I took vehicles to forecourts with Gas Guard and De Visser type fill guns and spent a fair bit of time measuring up before concluding that to be practical the filler should protrude from the plastic towbar trim cover. Distance from the towing eye bracket to rear of bumper is 6 inches, a filler couldn't be mounted much further towards the plastic trim than the towing eye without having to cut some of the plastic trim cover out, if you cut a section out of the plastic trim cover out off-centre then it wouldn't clip into position properly (held in position with 2 plastic lugs and 2 metal clips all off centre near where you'd be doing the cutting).

I'll start suggesting rear off-centre hidden behind plastic trim cover long adaptor type fillers for X5's as an option, particularly where the owner wishes to use a towbar. But due to the fiddly fill procedure using this type involves I'd still expect owners who say they won't use a towbar to prefer the central fixed filler that protrudes through the plastic trim, is easily accessible without removing trim and doesn't use a long screw-in adaptor. Depending on type of towbar, even an off centre mounted filler may be impossible to use with towbar attached - the towbar on this X5 isn't the usual ball on a bar removable type, it has the electrics/guard mounting flange which might partly obscure an off centre fill point.

Many customers prefer rear mounted fill points, usual reasons are neatness/discretion, to avoid making holes in the vehicle body and to allow filling from either side of the vehicle. Perhaps particularly suited to X5's, but maybe only when the towbar isn't going to be used else the long adaptor type filler must be used (reach under bumper to screw in adaptor... or if a normal bayonet protrudes through the plastic cover how would we make the plastic cover still removable?) and when the towbar isn't in use the plastic trim panel needs to be removed for filling. Worst case scenario would be the towbar itself (not just trailer) need be taken off before filling...

Unless the customer would prefer the usual 70mm round housing type fitted in the wing...

Image

Simon

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