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 Post subject: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Hi all,
The wife has got a new car, a Alfa Romeo Mito 1.4 multiair 135bhp. It's got the indirect injection engine which is turboed.
My question is will the set up from her last car fit on it which is a magic jet 3 6mm reducer, magic jet injectors, marrell oscar-n ecu and a toroidal tank

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Tanks come in many sizes - yours might fit, it might not. The only way to tell is working out/measuring the size and seeing if it will fit, taking account of the valve arrangement as well while you do so (they can be mounted on the top or bottom or centre of the tank depending on type).

No idea on the ecu, but given its going from a 6 cylinder to 4 it may not work, they generally make 3/4 cylinder ecus and ones for 5/6/8 cylinder ones.

If you haven't done it before it might be a good idea to consider a diy kit from one of the forum regulars that can be specced to your requirements if your looking to fit it yourself, You'd get something new and easier to work with that way and some support to go with it. They may be able to answer if your tank will fit, but would need an idea of the size of the current tank (photos may help, but tank height, diameter and the position of the valves would help)


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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:53 am 
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As said on the other thread, the Alfa multi-air system is similar to BMWs Valvetronic system.

The greatest difference from an LPG perspective is that Valvetronics are not generally turbo'd but the Alfa is turbo'd. On most systems that nod towards offering a Valvetronic option the advice is not to connect to manifold pressure, but on a turbo'd engine you may be forced to connect to manifold pressure.

It is possible to convert Valvetronics using systems that don't nod towards Valvetronic (a specific Valvetronic check box in software) and it will be the same with Multi-air. Regardless of any nod towards Valvetronic, systems fitted to Valvetronics take more setting up than systems on normally aspirated engines and we might expect the equivalent of a turbo'd Valvetronic to be a bit more difficult again.

I haven't converted a Multi-air but I have no doubt I'd obtain good results - though I would expect to spend a while setting it up, possibly swapping LPG components during the process. As a starting point, I would use an ECU that nods towards Multi-Air (specific Multi-Air checkbox) and while choosing an ECU might as well also select one that nods towards Start/Stop (other thread), like a modern AEB ECU...

Could possibly offer a DIY kit for Multi-Air but as I haven't converted one yet I would rather fit engine bay components myself, which would make more sense regards that parts swapping point. I am sure some suppliers will offer a kit for a multi-air off the cuff to anyone but in some cases we may have different expectations on how well it should run and a different outlook regards swapping parts should it seem beneficial from a technical point of view (which some of us would be likely to pick up on, some of us might not pick up on..). Of course, the tank install is just the tank install, I see no drawbacks in a DIYer fitting the rear end components etc.

References:
'Other thread'
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=14105

LPG on Valvetronics, also relevant to installs where petrol pressure isn't referenced to manifold pressure. Some of the concepts will be relevant to Multi-air
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=13790

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:39 am 
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Hi Simon, thanks for all the info. Have been reading about the bmw in your link and it's putting me off fitting lpg on the mito!

I now wish I did she didn't buy it!

So if I do decide to lpg it I will need new reducer, ecu and injectors. Also don't think the tank will fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:35 am 
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[quote="57jam89]So if I do decide to lpg it I will need new reducer, ecu and injectors. Also don't think the tank will fit.[/quote] Relevant tech knowledge and experience, which might lead to components being swapped during the install etc also come into their own, particularly on an install that is anything other than straightforward.

Points I raised wouldn't put me off converting the Mito. Plenty will have been converted including some by DIYers. No doubt most suppliers would be more than happy to sell a DIY kit which is claimed to give excellent results on the Mito and it is likely suppliers believe such claims. There is a chance such claims are true but where true it is more likely due to luck than judgement.. Suppliers may not have personally converted a Mito, may take manufacturer's hyped claims as true without question, may assume there is no problem regards suitability of parts if end users (including pros and DIYers, whom may have varied expectations in both cases) achieve half decent running on LPG. Suppliers may consider results successful when they stop receiving tech support calls after giving a bit of advice but that doesn't necessarily mean the vehicle drives as well as it should/could on LPG.. Suppliers seldom see the results first hand.

Common scenario - At some future point the car is sold and the new owner isn't as willing to put up with the slight niggles running on LPG so brings the vehicle to me for fettling, where I find the components fitted and/or the setup/calibration would never be able to provide good results. If I had converted it I may have swapped component X during the install and calibrated in a different way.

It may be the case that the technical points on threads I linked to don't have much bearing regards Multi-air, in which case parts selection and setting up could be straightforward at least to obtain what many would consider acceptable results... I might have improved on the results but the results seem OK so not a problem. But I would expect some of the points in threads I linked to to be relevant and therefore to expect some swapping of components etc during the install, implying a DIY install might not be the best option. I would know better than to think all was well just because tech support calls stopped coming in.

Say you fitted a DIY kit from a supplier and achieved acceptable results most of the time, just a few niggles. Then you come to me and I say 'Ahh, my interpretation of all these numbers on screen, fuel trim info and that slight bit of hesitation, is that to improve the situation you should really have fitted different injectors'.. I'd be charging you for my time, the supplier might say 'We have supplied the same components for many Mitos and insist they give good results, it is too late for you to change them anyway now they're used'. You might decide to change to the parts I advised but buying them would offset the money you'd saved by fitting the system yourself, so maybe you might as well have had me fit the system in first place. If I had supplied the DIY kit I would change the bits but that would mean I had made a loss from supplying the DIY kit not to mention the time I'd spent giving tech support, so I won't supply a DIY kit for this model until I've converted one myself.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:14 pm
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LPGC wrote:
[quote="57jam89]So if I do decide to lpg it I will need new reducer, ecu and injectors. Also don't think the tank will fit.[/quote] Relevant tech knowledge and experience, which might lead to components being swapped during the install etc also come into their own, particularly on an install that is anything other than straightforward.

Points I raised wouldn't put me off converting the Mito. Plenty will have been converted including some by DIYers. No doubt most suppliers would be more than happy to sell a DIY kit which is claimed to give excellent results on the Mito and it is likely suppliers believe such claims. There is a chance such claims are true but where true it is more likely due to luck than judgement.. Suppliers may not have personally converted a Mito, may take manufacturer's hyped claims as true without question, may assume there is no problem regards suitability of parts if end users (including pros and DIYers, whom may have varied expectations in both cases) achieve half decent running on LPG. Suppliers may consider results successful when they stop receiving tech support calls after giving a bit of advice but that doesn't necessarily mean the vehicle drives as well as it should/could on LPG.. Suppliers seldom see the results first hand.

Common scenario - At some future point the car is sold and the new owner isn't as willing to put up with the slight niggles running on LPG so brings the vehicle to me for fettling, where I find the components fitted and/or the setup/calibration would never be able to provide good results. If I had converted it I may have swapped component X during the install and calibrated in a different way.

It may be the case that the technical points on threads I linked to don't have much bearing regards Multi-air, in which case parts selection and setting up could be straightforward at least to obtain what many would consider acceptable results... I might have improved on the results but the results seem OK so not a problem. But I would expect some of the points in threads I linked to to be relevant and therefore to expect some swapping of components etc during the install, implying a DIY install might not be the best option. I would know better than to think all was well just because tech support calls stopped coming in.

Say you fitted a DIY kit from a supplier and achieved acceptable results most of the time, just a few niggles. Then you come to me and I say 'Ahh, my interpretation of all these numbers on screen, fuel trim info and that slight bit of hesitation, is that to improve the situation you should really have fitted different injectors'.. I'd be charging you for my time, the supplier might say 'We have supplied the same components for many Mitos and insist they give good results, it is too late for you to change them anyway now they're used'. You might decide to change to the parts I advised but buying them would offset the money you'd saved by fitting the system yourself, so maybe you might as well have had me fit the system in first place. If I had supplied the DIY kit I would change the bits but that would mean I had made a loss from supplying the DIY kit not to mention the time I'd spent giving tech support, so I won't supply a DIY kit for this model until I've converted one myself.

Simon[/quote]



Thanks again for your advice.

What I'm (well the wife) going to do is run it for a 4/5 weeks before going down the lpg route. And if/then we do I was thinking of you supplying the ecu and reducer (if the magic jet one will not suit) and then myself fitting the tank, reducer, nozzles into inlet manifold, ecu and some of the wiring and then coming to you for a day so you can fit/play around with injectors and set it up.

The main reason for this idea is because of the distance between us and the car is needed every weekday. What you think?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:18 am 
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Seems like a plan Simon.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:01 am 
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LPGC wrote:
Seems like a plan Simon.

Simon


Hi, as some as we decide if it's going on gas I will let you know.

How's the v12 coming along?

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:23 am 
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57jam89 wrote:
How's the v12 coming along?

All done except for finishing the fuel return. I'll do a thread on it soon.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:34 pm 
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Hi Simon,
I been offered a set up from a bmw with a N46b20 engine which I understand is a Valvetronic. It's a brc system but the only info I know is it's a 24 sequent my07 ecu and they think orange injectors.

Would this set up suit the Mito (I would require you to set it up?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:29 pm 
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I haven't been around for a few days, sorry.

The BRC kit may work OK on the Mito but I would't go that route. The only BRC kit I'd try on it would be PND rather than seq24/MY07/seq56 etc.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:01 pm 
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Hi Simon,
I had taken some screen shots of the Marrelli Oscar-n system which is in the Hyundia before I sell it/break it, can you have a look at the following pictures just to check it can't be used on the Mito. Thanks.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:12 am 
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I read this the other day and meant to try to get hold of the 2.8 or later software you're running before replying (my current EG software is earlier). I had a quick look for the later software but didn't find it and haven't had much time to try to get hold of it since.. I'm currently doing 12 hour days and haven't had a day off for over a month!

What I would be looking for is an option (perhaps in 'Engine type') for 'Multi-air'.. You'll be able to check for that yourself, or if Dai reads this in the meantime he may reply with an answer (he fits a lot of EG systems).

I would recommend an ECU that has that option for reasons I previously mentioned - It seems the multi air engine design will have inlet manifold at atmospheric pressure when not under boost conditions (like Valvetronic) but then under boost conditions the manifold will obviously be at above atmospheric pressure (so again, atmospheric pressure or boost, never any vacuum). ECU's with a Multi-Air option should compensate gas dosage for this unusual type of engine (compensating for the unusual pressure readings it will see), ECU's without the option will not. Though it will be possible to use any ECU, even ones without a Valvetronic / Multi-Air option, setup is likely to be much trickier and the final results may not be as good in terms of accurate fuelling.

I don't know if selecting the multi-air option on such ECU will easily facilitate an easy setup and make calibration straightforward, I would presume choice of pressure, nozzle size and vacuum piping arrangements will still need to be a little unusual... but having the multi air option would seem to be the way to go. ECU's with the option aren't that expensive, it might not make sense to fit an ECU without the option and then need to spend hours messing with vac pipe arrangements, nozzle sizes and pressure if most of the messing could have been prevented simply by fitting an ECU with the appropriate option.

Bit of a side note but there would be other ways to approach the problem... Examples: Instead of an ECU with multi-air option, could fit an ECU such as Stag which allows compensation for engine vacuum / Or could fit LPG injectors that work in a slightly different way such as Keihin. In the first example you're still paying for a new ECU but instead of a special option for multi-air, now you're trying to emulate the same by adjusting the vacuum (boost here, though) compensation in software.. I don't know whether the multi-air option or compensation method would work best but would go with the ECU with the dedicated multi-air option. In the second example you're paying for expensive injectors which would cost more than another ECU.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:57 pm 
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Hi Simon,
I had just checked the software and no Valvetronic / Multi-Air option so I will sell the lpg system with the car if it gets it's reserve.

Here's a link for you to have a look -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hyundai-Coupe ... 456wt_1190

So if and then we lpg the Alfa I will give you a shout about which ecu to buy!
Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:05 pm 
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If using the EG system you would want the newer ecu. You will struggle with the older version

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 Post subject: Re: Alfa romeo?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:31 pm 
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There you go!

Simon

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