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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 11:54 am 
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LairdScooby wrote:
I can't see a valve to stop the coolant flow to the heater matrix in that diagram but i think there is at least one more part of the diagram to show the full system - think you'll have to get down and dirty with your engine bay and look to see if there are any valves of any description on the hoses feeding the heater matrices. I imagine it's pretty cramped under the bonnet and the rear heater matrix isn't particularly easy to get to so good luck with that!
There probably won't be a water shut-off on the Bongo engine and as Gilbert said it's a different design to the 4L Cologne used in the Explorer. On the Explorer there is indeed a water shut off solenoid that is not only difficult to access but also fitted directly to the engine's heater water outlet, so you couldn't plumb to the constant flow side of it.. Just as well it is vacuum operated and disabling it is as simple as disconnecting and plugging it's connecting vacuum pipe. Wouldn't bother looking over the diagram with all those part numbers and arrows there to trick the eye, just look in the engine bay.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:38 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Col, While on the same point: Why not ask Tinley for tech support, then? Though they too won't be around to answer your questions on forum after hours (or ever) or at anytime out of hours on the phone. There are few on forum that could help you, and no disrespect intended towards Laird Scooby and similar but they wouldn't be able to help you much even if they had a financial incentive. Unless you are willing to travel the distance from Lands End to Cambridgeshire while at the same time not willing to travel the distance from Lands End to Yorkshire, from my point of view you have paid a similar amount that you would have paid me for your system but you have cut me out of the deal except for hoping for my tech support. This can not be a positive for you even on a very simple install like a Vectra or Bongo and would certainly not pay you off on a more difficult install. If you had bought from me we could still be talking about your install and your questions on the phone. You bought from a supplier that doesn't do conversions and which closes at 5pm.. I could leave you to write posts on forum in the hope another amateur will know the answers to your questions and then bother to reply, or to cross your fingers in case you don't manage to get it running properly in the end, or to hope the DVLA or insurers won't require proof of checking by a competent person.

I don't get it.. Why pay the same or more for much the same, when where you got it from cannot include anything like the same level of tech support/customer service? If all of your supplier's customers asked the same questions as you, they would need far more staff to answer the basic questions. They are trade suppliers who are happiest selling to people like myself, who don't need to ask questions. An amateur can test their luck asking questions on forums or buy from somewhere that will offer the necessary services. V6 conversion you say... Have you read my thoughts regards how suited some systems are to V6 applications? I am not a supplier that deals with only a certain range of systems, I am in installer that fits a wide range of systems with an unbiased approach. I would hazard a guess that I (or other well known pros) would not have recommended the system you have bought for a V6 install... Tech support starts with unbiased component choice but even if you made what I'd consider a poor choice I would still be your best bet for getting the thing running as well it could. I am up and down the country a fair bit and will be around Lands End next month.

Simon.


Why ask Tinley for tech support Simon? Do you think they'll know where the coolant pipes on a Bongo are? Of course not. When I asked this forum "which was the best system for a V6 Bongo" I don't recall you giving me your expert opinion on this subject and offering to sell me your suggested kit! That's probably why I decided to use an identical kit which works incredibly well on my V6 Vectra, despite being fitted by a novice. All thanks to users of this forum who helped out by giving good advice and opinions, which after all is what forums are all about aren't they? I often freely hand out advice on electrical installation forums, because I accept that some people like to do things themselves, or simply can't afford to hire experts, and I'd rather people did things safely armed with a little knowledge.
With your vast experience, have you ever converted a V6 Bongo?
And BTW, DVLA didn't ask for a certificate when I notified them of the change, nor did my insurance company. I asked my one and only 'local' installer if he could certify my work and he wanted £100 for doing so. Rather steep for a 10 minute inspection I thought. It was after seeing hisinstalls that I decided to do it myself in the first place! I can get the whole carinspected by way of an MOT for less than half that amount! I'm afraid I saw it as a 'tax' for having the audacity to install my own kit.... :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:46 pm 
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[/quote]

No worries Colin, had a brief look at that and i can only say it looks truly awful! :shock: I can't see a valve to stop the coolant flow to the heater matrix in that diagram but i think there is at least one more part of the diagram to show the full system - think you'll have to get down and dirty with your engine bay and look to see if there are any valves of any description on the hoses feeding the heater matrices. I imagine it's pretty cramped under the bonnet and the rear heater matrix isn't particularly easy to get to so good luck with that!

I also now have a much better idea of what straws are and it's got me thinking. Future use though as both my V6 conversions are single point mixer for now, several reasons but cost and availability of second hand kit, tried and tested conversion on many other 827s and a few other similar reasons for going single point mixer.

However in the fullness of time, i do want to go injection on at least one of mine. I've just seen Simons comment about the King system and unless i'm reading too much into it, he seems to suggest the King system isn't necessarily the best choice for some V6 applications.
Given my own level of knowledge, experience, expertise etc, come the time to think about an injection system i think i may well be having a chat with him, plastic at the ready! :wink: :D[/quote]

Yes, that's one hell of a diagram, but the only one in existence it seems :-)
As for the KING system, it's AEB which is pretty highly regarded and it works really well on my Vectra. I don't see any reason why it can't work equally well on the Bongo or any other V6, but watch this space :-)


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 8:34 pm 
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I knew the King system was AEB under the skin, as is the OMVL Dream XXI in one incarnation and i have a funny feeling the Stag 300-6 is as well although i could be wrong on that one.
The thing with the V6 in mine is it has a variable length induction system. There are two solenoid-controlled butterfly valves (throttle plates if you like) in the inlet manifold and depending whether the first, second or both solenoid valves are opened the butterflies are either closed (long intake), half open or fully open (short intake) to give improved performance, economy etc. The solenoid valves are controlled by the engine management depending on throttle position, manifold vacuum, engine temperature, engine speed and a few other things. This is going to make mapping an LPG injection system some sort of nightmare i should think.

This is another reason for going down the mixer route at the moment as it responds quickly to vacuum/flow changes and until i get a bit more clued up on how to alter a map (which i suppose won't happen until i do it :roll: ) then i'll stick with the mixer.
A friend has a King system on his 820SLi that he fitted himself, i might get him to give me a "tutorial" on how to alter the map and pick his brains on the suitability for the 2.7 V6 in mine. He went a bit mad on his though and cut the spare wheel well out completely, fabricated a frame from 5mm thick 40mm box section and bolted a 120L (think he said 120L) toroidal tank in underneath. He then made a new, flat boot floor and even used polystyrene insulation board between the tank cover and the boot floor.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 9:18 pm 
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LairdScooby wrote:
I knew the King system was AEB under the skin, as is the OMVL Dream XXI in one incarnation and i have a funny feeling the Stag 300-6 is as well although i could be wrong on that one.
The thing with the V6 in mine is it has a variable length induction system. There are two solenoid-controlled butterfly valves (throttle plates if you like) in the inlet manifold and depending whether the first, second or both solenoid valves are opened the butterflies are either closed (long intake), half open or fully open (short intake) to give improved performance, economy etc. The solenoid valves are controlled by the engine management depending on throttle position, manifold vacuum, engine temperature, engine speed and a few other things. This is going to make mapping an LPG injection system some sort of nightmare i should think.

This is another reason for going down the mixer route at the moment as it responds quickly to vacuum/flow changes and until i get a bit more clued up on how to alter a map (which i suppose won't happen until i do it :roll: ) then i'll stick with the mixer.
A friend has a King system on his 820SLi that he fitted himself, i might get him to give me a "tutorial" on how to alter the map and pick his brains on the suitability for the 2.7 V6 in mine. He went a bit mad on his though and cut the spare wheel well out completely, fabricated a frame from 5mm thick 40mm box section and bolted a 120L (think he said 120L) toroidal tank in underneath. He then made a new, flat boot floor and even used polystyrene insulation board between the tank cover and the boot floor.


My Vectra has a similar sort of set-up, a bulky top plenum with vacume operated valves etc. Basically, it means it has two 'flat spots' throughout the rev range, which you just learn to live with. Not sure if this is anything like yours, but... surely all the gas system is doing is replicating the petrol injectors, so as long as your gas injectors are squirting in fuel somewhere near the petrol injectors then all should be good? I presume mine is mapped pretty well, I cannot tell any loss of performance when switching from petrol to gas. I found the software reasonably easy to understand, and although I don't fully understand all aspects of it, the car is running well enough not to worry :-)
Your friend sounds like a fanatic, with far too much time on his hands! :-)


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:50 pm 
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To be honest, those were my thoguhts regarding the gas injection, it mimics the petrol injection so in theory should just follow the OE map but with the multipliers etc to alter the fuelling i don't know if there is enough flexibility on the gas injectors and the duration and opening/closing speed of them. I suppose as they have been fitted to so many vehicles (most of which these days have some sort of dual-ram/variable inlet length tuning) that it shouldn't be a problem and i'm probably just over-thinking it.

My friend is definitely a fanatic but not sure about having too much time on his hands! When he converted his car, he was doing a full time (and then some - family business so was expected to do lots of unpaid overtime!) job and renovating a recently purchased house by himself with help for some of the bigger jobs. I have to say he works very quickly though so that's probably how he fits it all in.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:36 am 
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I finally have everything finished and ready to go but cannot connect to the ECU, (error CO1) Suspecting my lead I tried it on my existing Vectra install and it works fine. (using my old laptop running XP)

Because the Bongo install requires an updated version of the King software, and I can't put two separate versions of the software on the same laptop, I'm trying to use my windows 10 laptop. However, there are problems with the driver for my lead because it is designed for XP and not windows 10. I can't seem to find a version available for Windows 10, and have tried the whole list of drivers on Tinley's website.

My son then loaded some generic drivers for my 'Motogas' lead and it actually connected! Started the set-up process and when I got to the point of Autocalibration the connection failed and now it just won't connect at all.

Can anyone suggest what the problem might be here?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Are you using a USB lead? That is often the cause of dropping connections. I'd install the software you need on the XP laptop (uninstall the one already on there first) and then decide which version you are likely to need most.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:01 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
Are you using a USB lead? That is often the cause of dropping connections. I'd install the software you need on the XP laptop (uninstall the one already on there first) and then decide which version you are likely to need most.


Yes, it's a Motogas usb interface.
It works fine in my Vectra, but won't connect to the Bongo. Do you think if I install the newer software it will work with the Vectra too? Or is there firmware on the Vectra ECU that can be updated to suit the newer software?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:05 pm 
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I've just driven the Bongo a few miles and it's switching to gas and running ok, although I'm sure it will need tweaking. This surprises me, as although I managed to set the parameters I wasn't able to autocalibrate the system. Is it wise to drive it around like this... ?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:37 pm 
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colin33 wrote:
Do you think they'll know where the coolant pipes on a Bongo are? Of course not. When I asked this forum "which was the best system for a V6 Bongo" I don't recall you giving me your expert opinion on this subject and offering to sell me your suggested kit! That's probably why I decided to use an identical kit which works incredibly well on my V6 Vectra, despite being fitted by a novice. All thanks to users of this forum who helped out by giving good advice and opinions, which after all is what forums are all about aren't they? I often freely hand out advice on electrical installation forums, because I accept that some people like to do things themselves, or simply can't afford to hire experts, and I'd rather people did things safely armed with a little knowledge.
With your vast experience, have you ever converted a V6 Bongo?


With hindsight reckon if I'd told you what parts I'd advise you'd have bought them elsewhere anyway? I don't believe you'd rather people all do electrical work themselves, with your free tech support... I reckon you'd rather they hire you?

I do have vast experience, that's well known ;)

What works well on a Vectra V6 may not work well on another V6. One of the reasons I fitted AEB on my own car, a V6, was so I could keep abreast of all the little nuances AEB throws particularly regards 5 and 6 cylinder installs and what effect different (new) firmware / hardware has on that. Users on this forum are mostly novices whom wouldn't recognise that nuances are caused by hardware / firmware issues, same as you wouldn't. Regardless of whether I converted a Bongo V6 (hundreds of conversions I forget most of the vehicles I have done), if you had bought a kit from me I would be giving very specific advise because if I hadn't made tech notes on where I'd connected water pipes on a Bongo V6 I would take myself for a walk around a scrap yard to familiarise myself with the Bongo V6 engine bay. Or asking if you could send pics rather than post hardly readable schematics filled with numbers, the type of image you half expect to see Marilyn Monroe in if you quint slightly and are not colour blind, not the most useful image for this purpose.

Related reading on nuances.
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14065&p=108561&hilit=firmware#p108561
http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13843&p=108508&hilit=firmware#p108508

colin33 wrote:
And BTW, DVLA didn't ask for a certificate when I notified them of the change, nor did my insurance company. I asked my one and only 'local' installer if he could certify my work and he wanted £100 for doing so. Rather steep for a 10 minute inspection I thought. It was after seeing hisinstalls that I decided to do it myself in the first place! I can get the whole carinspected by way of an MOT for less than half that amount! I'm afraid I saw it as a 'tax' for having the audacity to install my own kit.... :D

Regular users will know you've backed up points I make on a regular basis and feel quite strongly about. The only remaining slight question mark that remains regards a DIY without a check and without pro tech support install concerns you not being a competent person in terms of LPG installs if the car hasn't been for an MOT (which covers some safety aspects of LPG installs) since the install. I may have had a fair bit to do with insurers offering cover on the basis a vehicle has passed an MOT since being converted.

Back up to speed on the thread... Was connection lost with the engine running or engine stalled? Or did any other error message appear first? Newer AEB ECU's don't like generic interface cables, they lose connection at high engine loads and/or high rpm, sometimes even using the recommended AEB interface cable. Sometimes you've got to pull the LPG fuse before they will reconnect... But maybe some electrical engineers would be reluctant to admit pulling/re-inserting a fuse worked :twisted: :lol: Similarly after connection failure, pull the USB plug out of PC and plug back in again.

Simon

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:01 pm 
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[/quote]Back up to speed on the thread... Was connection lost with the engine running or engine stalled? Or did any other error message appear first? Newer AEB ECU's don't like generic interface cables, they lose connection at high engine loads and/or high rpm, sometimes even using the recommended AEB interface cable. Sometimes you've got to pull the LPG fuse before they will reconnect... But maybe some electrical engineers would be reluctant to admit pulling/re-inserting a fuse worked :twisted: :lol: Similarly after connection failure, pull the USB plug out of PC and plug back in again.

Simon[/quote]

I tried pulling the fuse but to no avail...
So, ordered a new AEB lead and success, I can finally connect :-)
Took the Van for Mot which it passed... running a bit rich on idle but hopefully will rectify this once I get my head around the map adjustments.
One thing though, following Tinley's literature it says that on the 'injector check' screen, turn off each injector in turn and no noticable difference in engine note should occur. Am I reading this right? Every injector turned off in turn results in a change, obviously it's going to if it's switched off, right?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:36 pm 
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No it won't. When you switch off an LPG injector, the corresponding petrol injector will fire instead so there should be no difference in running. If you've got the injector feeds crossed, then you'll get a change. say you've got them one out, turn off number 1 LPG injector and instead of number 1 petrol injector firing to run that cylinder, number 2 petrol injector starts up, number 1 won't be firing and number 2 will be running stupidly rich as it will be getting a slug of both fuels.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:33 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
No it won't. When you switch off an LPG injector, the corresponding petrol injector will fire instead so there should be no difference in running. If you've got the injector feeds crossed, then you'll get a change. say you've got them one out, turn off number 1 LPG injector and instead of number 1 petrol injector firing to run that cylinder, number 2 petrol injector starts up, number 1 won't be firing and number 2 will be running stupidly rich as it will be getting a slug of both fuels.


Ok thanks, so what is the likely cause? I've tried swopping over the two injector loom plugs, but that doesn't help, it runs really lumpy. All six injectors change tune when I switch them off individually.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:48 pm 
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colin33 wrote:
Gilbertd wrote:
No it won't. When you switch off an LPG injector, the corresponding petrol injector will fire instead so there should be no difference in running. If you've got the injector feeds crossed, then you'll get a change. say you've got them one out, turn off number 1 LPG injector and instead of number 1 petrol injector firing to run that cylinder, number 2 petrol injector starts up, number 1 won't be firing and number 2 will be running stupidly rich as it will be getting a slug of both fuels.


Ok thanks, so what is the likely cause? I've tried swopping over the two injector loom plugs, but that doesn't help, it runs really lumpy. All six injectors change tune when I switch them off individually.


Might indicate its in need of calibration as much as anything else - The petrol system will try to adapt to correct the lpg emissions if it sees it running too lean/rich and in turn throw out the petrol fuel trims. Then when you swap back to petrol its seeing the reverse so fuelling is out of balance. Bear in mind your trying to compensate for the difference between the characteristics of the different injectors with the LPG ecu doing the work to do so.

Can you view the fuel trims using the obd port if you have one? If these are showing high its a good sign something is in need of attention. You mention its running rich on the MOT test what fuel was it tested on (both what it was actually using, and what the test certificate says it was running on as it should be set to the appropriate fuel being used).

Is the switch over from petrol to LPG smooth (barely noticeable) or do you get a jolt/hesitation as it changes?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:58 am 
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Brian_H wrote:
colin33 wrote:
Gilbertd wrote:
No it won't. When you switch off an LPG injector, the corresponding petrol injector will fire instead so there should be no difference in running. If you've got the injector feeds crossed, then you'll get a change. say you've got them one out, turn off number 1 LPG injector and instead of number 1 petrol injector firing to run that cylinder, number 2 petrol injector starts up, number 1 won't be firing and number 2 will be running stupidly rich as it will be getting a slug of both fuels.


Ok thanks, so what is the likely cause? I've tried swopping over the two injector loom plugs, but that doesn't help, it runs really lumpy. All six injectors change tune when I switch them off individually.


Might indicate its in need of calibration as much as anything else - The petrol system will try to adapt to correct the lpg emissions if it sees it running too lean/rich and in turn throw out the petrol fuel trims. Then when you swap back to petrol its seeing the reverse so fuelling is out of balance. Bear in mind your trying to compensate for the difference between the characteristics of the different injectors with the LPG ecu doing the work to do so.

Can you view the fuel trims using the obd port if you have one? If these are showing high its a good sign something is in need of attention. You mention its running rich on the MOT test what fuel was it tested on (both what it was actually using, and what the test certificate says it was running on as it should be set to the appropriate fuel being used).

Is the switch over from petrol to LPG smooth (barely noticeable) or do you get a jolt/hesitation as it changes?



I presented the van for MOT running on lpg. This is because I have fitted a stainless exhaust and removed the Cat, so may fail emissions if presented on petrol.
Although there is a diagnostic socket on the Bongo, I don't think it's OBD2 and haven't connected it to the LPG ECU in any way. It is not the 'usual' D shape socket.
The switch-over from petrol to LPG is pretty smooth, hardly noticable.
I'll take another look at the injector wiring. I have wired one rail into the left bank of the V6, and the other into the right bank.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:59 pm 
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colin33 wrote:
Ok thanks, so what is the likely cause? I've tried swopping over the two injector loom plugs, but that doesn't help, it runs really lumpy. All six injectors change tune when I switch them off individually.
Some vehicles, V6's in particular, and converted using certain ECU's in particular, do run lumpy when you switch off individual injectors. But the same can happen (again with correct fuel dosage) if spuds aren't in the correct place or if pipe runs are too long.

Certain combinations of injector spec, nozzle size and pressure can mean injectors would need to pulse below ECU firmware's minimum pulse duration the injectors selected (injectors selected should be the type of actual injectors fitted in most cases). Where this is the case, rich running on over-run and/or idle results. But more likely the high emissions noted on the MOT would be due to something else... The de-cat maybe.

Not sure which of the two standards the MOT tester used - I'm not an MOT tester and haven't checked this but apparently: One standard acknowledges that emissions should be lower running on LPG but for this test the tester would need to have data on what emissions should be below for the exact make/model of vehicle being tested on LPG. The other standard allows higher emissions than running on petrol - this is the legacy standard for vehicles running single point open loop LPG systems that most MOT testers use when testing most vehicles presented running on LPG, regardless of what system is fitted.

How did you calibrate the system?

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:30 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Not sure which of the two standards the MOT tester used - I'm not an MOT tester and haven't checked this but apparently: One standard acknowledges that emissions should be lower running on LPG but for this test the tester would need to have data on what emissions should be below for the exact make/model of vehicle being tested on LPG. The other standard allows higher emissions than running on petrol
Not sure who's been feeding you bollox but totally untrue. Here's the flow chart from the MoT testers manual http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newnoncat.pdf. You'll see that if a car doesn't meet the requirements for this test, it says go to page 8. Page 8 then deals with tests for cars running on petrol not gas (because if running on gas, it's been dealt with under this flow chart).

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:27 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
LPGC wrote:
Not sure which of the two standards the MOT tester used - I'm not an MOT tester and haven't checked this but apparently: One standard acknowledges that emissions should be lower running on LPG but for this test the tester would need to have data on what emissions should be below for the exact make/model of vehicle being tested on LPG. The other standard allows higher emissions than running on petrol
Not sure who's been feeding you bollox but totally untrue. Here's the flow chart from the MoT testers manual http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newnoncat.pdf. You'll see that if a car doesn't meet the requirements for this test, it says go to page 8. Page 8 then deals with tests for cars running on petrol not gas (because if running on gas, it's been dealt with under this flow chart).
I'm not disagreeing with you on maybe being fed bollox mate (by an MOT tester too!) but I wonder if the flow chart is relevant? I ask because it is headed 'spark ignition - non cat test', but wouldn't a newer vehicle fail the test if cats were removed anyway? (the reason people gut cats but leave them in place, so MOT guy assumes a cat is fitted) - in which case the flow chart isn't really relevant because the vehicle should fail the test anyway? But if the flow chart is used (in which case I'm wrong on the cat aspect), it does state a vehicle universal figure of CO<3.5% and HC <1200ppm - would have to check how those figures compare to passable emissions figures (on petrol) for newer vehicles fitted with cats...

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:19 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7864
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Location: Peterborough
It's the first of four flow charts that follow on from each other. It's headed non-CAT test because that is the test you do if a car fits into that category, if it doesn't meet any of the criteria on that test, it says to go to page 8. Page 8 follows on (here it is http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newbet.pdf) but if it doesn't meet the criteria on page 8 you then go to page 9 (http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newp9.pdf) unless it isn't a passenger car, in which case you go to page 10 (http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newp10.pdf) but if it is after 2002, you go to page 11 (http://www.motuk.co.uk/images/730_newp11.pdf).

So, if the tester knows his stuff, he starts at the start, and as soon as he gets to the, is it running on gas, he does the non-CAT test. If he thinks he knows better than VOSA, then print off a copy of the flowcharts and show him.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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