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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:06 am 
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Hi all, got some questions and am looking for a bit of advice, looking at buying a new house that has only woodburners for heating, no problem for me but my OH wants heating that will come on automatically in addition, hence I'm thinking of an LPG boiler (there is no mains gas)
So if I have a bulk tank can I get one with a liquid take off and meter/ pump to fill my vehicles as well? I'm currently using between 200 an 300l a week most weeks? Cheapest duty paid locally is about 54ppl
I know someone else who asked his supplier yesterday for a tank with a liquid take off and they said they would only supply them for business use ????
Do I have to have a tank on rental and be stuck with one supplier or is it a sod to get them retested if I buy a used one? I can borrow a hiab and driver so relocating one wouldn't be a problem as long as its empty.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:31 am 
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I haven't a clue on the answer to your question i'm afraid but it sounds like a terrific idea to me. I'm sure there must be a supplier somewhere that would let you buy LPG in bulk so you could use it for your heating (and maybe cooking as well?) and have a liquid take-off with a pump and meter as you describe. This would enable you to pay for your fuel at two separate rates keeping the taxman happy as you could buy a full tank from your supplier and then whatever you used for your vehicle you could pay the duty on retrospectively.
I know this would be a lot of faffing about, but would it be worthwhile setting up a business in name only to enable you to have the tank there for business use? You might be the only customer but if you had to be licenced to sell LPG for vehicles (even if only to yourself) there is the possibility you could still retail it to a select few at "mates rates" helping them and yourself out.

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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:07 am 
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there's a bloke on ffrr managed to get a tank installed and pays 27p /l for the gas plus another 10p for duty contracted for 2 years , so it is doable


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:45 am 
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hitman wrote:
there's a bloke on ffrr managed to get a tank installed and pays 27p /l for the gas plus another 10p for duty contracted for 2 years , so it is doable


Hitman, thats really helpful thanks, it took me a while to figure out what FFRR was though, for anybody else interested here is the link

http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic36412.html

Sadly the house wasn't suitable, everything else was perfect bar the fact it was literally 4ft from a mega busy A road which the agents pictures and description all failed to show:(


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:48 pm 
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At least you know now and if it comes up for the next house you have the info to hand.

Also if i ever win the lottery and get my country house in the middle of nowhere, i know as well! :wink: :D

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Thinking in a reverse sorta way, is there anything stopping you filling a "spare" Calor 13kg tank with autogas, then using one of the adaptors they sell on Ebay to dump it into your tank if you run empty? My Jeep uses petrol like it's going out of fashion (2 gallons yesterday on a 20 mile journey, 4.0 engine) and I can't be bothered fixing it. Because generally when I start on petrol it has switched to gas by the time I reach the end of my street.
So it would be handy if I could carry round a "gas jerry can". I realise it's never going to empty the spare tank, they will just equalise in pressure - but surely you would get a reasonable amount out of it into an empty donut tank or whatever? Yes? No?


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:59 pm 
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Camaro,

Gas jerry can implies you'd be filling up your vehicle tank from this other tank, but for that you would need a pump. Gas is stored as a liquid, if you connect a full tank to an empty tank then all that will happen is the pressure in the tanks will equalise without any (or just very little) liquid gas flowing from the full tank to the empty tank.

It is possible to run the vehicle directly from a propane bottle... First the safety considerations - Would have to be properly secured (strapped to a frame) and if you run piping to it (to use to fuel the engine directly) will need to be externally vented (problematic on none purpose designed tanks). Even then this would not be a vehicle rated tank, it would fail any LPG conversion inspection, would not be as safe as a vehicle rated tank (not as thick walled, no electronic gas shut off valve).

Then the practical considerations - Most tanks have vapour take off, engine gas supply needs to be liquid take-off. You can get a liquid feed from some vapour take off tanks by using them upside down... but a forklift tank is liquid feed when on it's side (at correct angle) or stood up so would be more suitable (still all the same safety problems). Forklift connectors incorporate a one way valve, so when forklift tank isn't connected no gas will (should..) escape from the connector. However, should you want to refill a forklift tank using the same type of connector this one way valve will prevent you from doing so (though there is a way around it)... Refilling any portable tank is in any case dangerous as they do not have an 80% fill limiter.

Furthermore, forklift bottle valves have a built in excess flow shut off, the point at which this shuts off gas flow can vary between around 30hp to 200hp worth of gas flow depending on the specific tank (not tank make/model) you have (the excess flow valves vary so much)...

Simon

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 10:48 pm 
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camaro wrote:
My Jeep uses petrol like it's going out of fashion (2 gallons yesterday on a 20 mile journey, 4.0 engine) and I can't be bothered fixing it.


Ouch!!! Even mine doesn't do that badly on petrol! Minimum 18mpg when i've had to use petrol and that was hoofing it!

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:42 pm 
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Cheers Simon! A mine of knowledge as always! Guess that's a non-starter then...

Scooby - no idea what is up with it and don't really care, mine switches to gas so soon, it's not really a cost I have to take into consideration. Until I run out of gas.
The best/worst I have seen from it is 4.4mpg on petrol - from a cold start, flooring it up a long hill! But hey, it's an old tractor engine designed by AMC in the 40s, I think (maybe 50s), and just updated as it needed to be to suit emissions and consumer requirements in the US.
And they never die - I have over 400k on one of mine and it still doesn't touch a drop of oil!
Gotta love the experience of driving your front room settee, cruise control on, electric everything (that hasn't broken yet). and a huge supply of cheap spares from America.
Also the fact that the immobilisers fail and virtually nobody except me can fix them - pick a nice 1998 Orvis at the scrappers, buy it for £250 "It don't start, mate - won't even crank over", take ten minutes to bypass the immobiliser, and drive it out of the yard... :D


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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:52 pm 
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Oh, and here's my favourite LPG conversion - he has a few vids, lots of conspiracy stuff, a couple on his home-brewed gas conversion, and plenty on generators!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHn_k0wyEg4

Safety first lads!


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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 10:39 pm 
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You're right Camaro, the Jeep 4.0 engine is just a 2.5 AMC Nash Rambler (from the 60s) engine with 2 cylinders added - chances are it served duty in a tractor or something a decade or two before finding its way into the AMC Nash Rambler. The old Volvos (140/240/740 series) had engines that were developed from the Standard-Triumph engine that was poached from the Ferguson tractor. Like the Jeep lump, they just keep going as well.

Where i live there's not many petrol stations and even fewer LPG with the nearest LPG being 12 miles away, next one 22 miles and a third that probably doesn't have LPG anymore about 18 miles away (left til last as probably no gas there now) so there have been a few times when i've been caught out and run on empty and had to switch back to petrol.

One thing that has packed up on my Jeep is the cruise control - it's a broken or pulled out wire between the steering column cowl and the steering wheel, i just haven't bothered trying to fix it yet as cruise won't work on Jeeps until at least 40mph and most of the speed limits round here are 30mph or National Speed Limit/60mph and quite often some numpty is driving at 40-45mph where it's perfectly safe to go faster so cruise isn't an option then either.

I have a total of 3 leather-clad arm chairs with working cruise on the other 2 (and it works from 27mph as well! :D ) so know exactly what you mean.
As for running generators on gas, i used to work for a firm that extracted landfill gas (methane) to run generators that were converted from diesel to spark ignition, biggest were 69L V16, twin turbo, twin mixer jobbies kicking out about 1860bhp and up to 1MW of electricity, straight into the National Grid. Funny thing is, LPG is very different to methane - thankfully! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:15 pm 
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LairdScooby wrote:
Funny thing is, LPG is very different to methane - thankfully! :lol:
It isn't really, CNG conversions run on methane, it's got a lower calorific content but the stoichiometric ratio and Octane rating is roughly the same. Main difference is that it won't store as a liquid so has be be kept as a high pressure gas, hence Compressed Natural Gas rather than Liquified Petroleum Gas......

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:02 am 
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@Lairdscooby - What year is your Jeep Scooby? I've fixed a fair few cruise controls on Jeeps and other Chryslers. Very often just the vac pipe is off but on 2000+ models cruise is disabled if the MIL light is on (due to fuel trims, due to running a single point system without OBDfix). I didn't realise those Volvo engines were developed from Triumph engines... I wonder if Dai (Volvo enthusiast) will be along to comment! :lol:

@Camaro - I've described on forum (I'd have to find it) how my first attempt at getting a vehicle to run on gas was around 1990 when I ran out of petrol pulling a caravan on the motorway (very silly to run out of petrol I know). That attempt, not using any proper LPG kit, was unsuccessful but the car did run for a short distance on bottled gas. The Youtube vid shows the guy using a similar method to the one I tried, hardly ideal, he'll need to continuously manually adjust fuel flow according to engine load and rpm - and it might be telling that in the vid he drives under fairly constant conditions. When you think he could've fitted a sequential system for a few hundred quid, which would automatically provide accurate fuelling under all driving conditions, his attempts at making his own system (that isn't even as appropriate as a mixer system, which shouldn't be fitted to that car either) don't seem very worthwhile except for the novelty value.. Something I might try again if I ever run out of fuel in a none LPG converted petrol car with a bottle of gas handy - but I'm unlikely to ever be in that position again (will always have an LPG converted vehicle and will never run out of fuel again!). I have some pics of me using a forklift bottle to fuel a few properly LPG converted vehicles somewhere I'll try to dig out... I've sometimes had customers ask me to supply, install and calibrate the engine conversion where they'll later be fitting the tank themselves, just allowed me to check and calibrate the system before the proper tank was fitted.

Simon

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:27 am 
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LPGC wrote:
I didn't realise those Volvo engines were developed from Triumph engines... I wonder if Dai (Volvo enthusiast) will be along to comment!
Neither did I and I wonder where you got that info from. My understanding is the the Volvo B18 and B20 engines were one bank of a V8 designed for use in a truck. That's why the bottom end is so strong on them as they use the same size big end and main journals as those used on an engine twice the size.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:42 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
LPGC wrote:
I didn't realise those Volvo engines were developed from Triumph engines... I wonder if Dai (Volvo enthusiast) will be along to comment!
Neither did I and I wonder where you got that info from. My understanding is the the Volvo B18 and B20 engines were one bank of a V8 designed for use in a truck. That's why the bottom end is so strong on them as they use the same size big end and main journals as those used on an engine twice the size.


I think Dai might agree with you there, particularly on the strength. There are a few other examples of 4 pots using same size journals / big ends / etc as V8's.. Ford Pinto uses same rods as Ford small block, a strong bottom end as used on Sierra Cosworth etc (though a bit uprated on Cosworths it was possible to bolt Cosworth heads on other Pinto's and they'd live until the pistons gave out). Stronger rods in the Transits than the cars, except for the Cosworths. Stripping a more modern / more efficient engine, the journals etc seem tiny in comparison but some of that efficiency comes from reduced bearing friction.

Simon

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Also confusing as the B18 and B20 engines used in the Volvo 300 and 400 series cars were modified Renault F-series engines. I had a Volvo 440 clutch in one of my Renault 5 GT Turbos as it had a stronger spring than the Renault version, so didn't slip on the drag strip so much. And as Volvo conveniently turbocharged the 1.7 litre version, some of those found their way back into Renault 5s and 11s :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 3:11 pm 
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Rich,

Did you see the PM I sent you the other day (regards the Subaru I'll soon be selling)?

Simon

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 3:37 pm 
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Simon - I didn't (probably due to reading this site on my phone), will read it now.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:50 pm 
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Cheers Rich, I sometimes miss PM's for a while even though I use the laptop for forum.

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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
LairdScooby wrote:
Funny thing is, LPG is very different to methane - thankfully! :lol:
It isn't really, CNG conversions run on methane, it's got a lower calorific content but the stoichiometric ratio and Octane rating is roughly the same. Main difference is that it won't store as a liquid so has be be kept as a high pressure gas, hence Compressed Natural Gas rather than Liquified Petroleum Gas......


Sorry - a case of brain already being asleep when i typed that! What i intended to say is LPG is very different to landfill gas derived methane - even the most carefully managed gas field can give rise to "plugs" of high methane content landfill gas which can cause extremely rich running and literally torch the cylinder heads! At least LPG is pretty constant quality!

LPGC wrote:
@Lairdscooby - What year is your Jeep Scooby? I've fixed a fair few cruise controls on Jeeps and other Chryslers. Very often just the vac pipe is off but on 2000+ models cruise is disabled if the MIL light is on (due to fuel trims, due to running a single point system without OBDfix). I didn't realise those Volvo engines were developed from Triumph engines... I wonder if Dai (Volvo enthusiast) will be along to comment! :lol:
Simon


Thanks for the offer Simon - it's a 1995 and it's definitely a wire pulled or broken between the steering column cowl and the wheel. Please don't ask how i know this! :oops:

As for the origins of the B18/20 engines, a bit of digging appears i sit corrected!

http://cabinnaise.com/vpage/engine.htm

I was told the B18/20 was derived from the Standard-Triumph engine some 30 years ago and thinking about it i wonder if the fact that SAAB used the Dolomite-derived engine in their B20 application (early 99s and 900s) caused the confusion? Perhaps it was assumed by the person that told me that as SAAB had the OHC slant four from Triumph, Volvo had bought the OHV from them also as the engine annotations (B20) were the same.
I can only apologise for giving out incorrect information but if it's taken 30 years to find out, it can't be terrifically common knowledge!

As for the engines in the 340/440/480 Volvos, they're totally different to the B18/20 i'm talking about here. Renault did in fact turbocharge the 1.7 (Renault 5GT Turbo) themselves and the 1.4 (Renault 5 Gordini) - conversely the Volvo 360 had the B20 (Volvo) engine in A and F versions, single carb and Bosch L-Jetronic respectively. The injected versions (GLE and GLT) went very well, had two 360 GLTs, one as a company car and the other as my own, some years later.

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