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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:58 pm 
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I'm looking to have my engine rebuilt this summer and it makes sense to have the lpg system upgraded to some thing more effective and up to date. Its a 94 range rover LSE softdash so has cats and lambda sensors in the exhaust.
Currently its a romano single point system with stako underslung tanks, fitted in 2003. The certificate says e-gas and type europa whatever that means.
I'm considering a dual ecu - the garage use a canems system.
So what options do I have? I assume a multipoint system but someone doing the same a while ago opted for a closed loop single point system so why not a multipoint closed loop system?
Any brands recommended?
Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:51 pm 
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My LSE ran a closed loop single point and my P38 also runs the same. As the 14CUX ECU in the LSE batch fires the petrol injectors a multipoint won't be sequential as the petrol system isn't so most would consider it overkill. As long as the single point is specced and set up correctly you'll gain nothing with the original expense of a multipoint.

Unless the system has been changed since first installed, the certificate is wrong. I don't think e-gas made a singlepoint system, only multipoint and Europa is another, non e-gas, multipoint system.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:57 am 
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Thanks. I'm just waiting for some quotes for various bits of work.
What's a new front end system likely to cost fitted?
I'm tempted by a dual fuel ecu but it isn't cheap. It buys a lot of petrol but as I only have a very small petrol tank I'm rather committed to lpg.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Presumably you've been talking to Woody in Essex as he's the only person I know of that has used the Canems ECU to run LPG and there was a lot of discussion over whether it would work properly due to one input not being there (fuel temperature I think, which is far more important on LPG than petrol, but wouldn't swear to it). If the engine was in a TVR, then it might be worth it where you want to squeeze every last horsepower out of it (but if I had a TVR and wanted that, I'd dump the 14 CUX controlled, distributor equipped, Clasic engine and upgrade to a GEMS or Thor unit from a later P38) but in an LSE? It sounds like overkill to me. You might get the extra half mile per gallon out of it if you were lucky.

As you've already got what I presume is an open loop system, most of what is there won't need to be replaced. You'd need an OMVL R90E vaporiser (around £80) and an AEB 175 Leonardo controller (£145) and, if you don't have them fitted already, a couple of Pitagora emulators (although I suspect you could simply disconnect the power to the petrol injectors and the 14 CUX wouldn't notice). Not sure how much you'd be charged to fit it but it isn't rocket science. My LSE was fitted with a completely inadequate Lovato system when I first got it so I worked out which bits were working properly (the controller) and slung the rest. Fitted an R90E, re-plumbed it in series with the heater so it didn't freeze in the first 300m, and set it up properly. After that I could manage 200 miles on a 60 litre fill.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:13 pm 
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No its Lloyds in Warminster. They have done all the work on my car so far as they are fairly local. They run an LSE with a canems ecu and one or two trick bits and seem very pleased with it.
The figures I'm being quoted are fairly hefty so who else on here would be able to fit (and supply ) the bits you mention. I have neither the time or the skill to do it. Sadly with Blaze gone I have to look for another source. Shame as they would have been the go to place for this. I need a chat with someone before I make a decision about that bit.
I assume my system is open loop.
So engine rebuilders in wiltshire? I've approached a place in brum who have done lots of work on classics but I need my engine sorted before I do the lpg. There are the big boys (rpi/je etc) but I need a rebuild not a new 4.8, nice though it might be.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:43 pm 
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Don't know of anyone in Wiltshire for the engine or LPG (now Blaze have stopped doing conversions). For an engine rebuild you won't go far wrong speaking to Ray at V8 Developments (http://www.v8developments.co.uk/index.shtml). I took my P38 engine there and the work they do is spot on. I've visited RPi and can honestly say I've never met such an arrogant tw*t in all my life, he knows everything there is to know about the LR V8 and everyone else knows nothing according to him. His prices are criminal too.

Although he's a fair distance from you, I'm sure Simon at LPGC would fit a system for you.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:20 am 
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Thanks for the thumbs up Gilbert, yes I'd be happy to do the work/ supply the bits etc.
Agreed with what you've said - Already has mixer bits installed so upgrading the mixer system would be the cheapest option.
Or to take the pulsed LPG injection route I would usually advise just the usual type slave system rather than Canems.

I've converted a lot of these with either type of system.

I know a guy who thought fitting Megasquirt would allow him to vastly improve mpg and performance on petrol (and therefore also on LPG since a slave type LPG system was already fitted)... But he ended up spending a fair bit of cash and time on fitting the MS (and a different cam) but ended up decreasing mpg and performance! This might have been due to him not having set up Megasquirt correctly and/or due to the cam... but I think even if he had set up MS perfectly and had selected cam wisely he still wouldn't have seen any mpg increase.

On these group injected engines it is possible to fit a 4 cylinder slave type ECU (rather than 8cyl ECU) to save a bit more money... Just wire LPG injectors in parallel - I've done this on quite a few too. The only real disadvantages are that you lose the 'per cylinder' smooth fuel changeover and the possibility of using any petrol addition (not that you'd want to use petrol addition).

You don't really need injector emulators on these models, I've never known one of these petrol ECUs be damaged due to no electrical injector load (but probably best to fit emulators if you'd worry otherwise!) and no errors are generated when injectors are not connected. As Gilbert says, you can just use a double pole double throw relay to disconnect petrol injectors at the common lives (relay off position connects petrol injector lives, orange wires to injectors) if not using an emulator, or such relay can be used to disconnect the positives to the petrol injectors which are not emulated by the LPG ECU in case of using a 4 cyl LPG ECU.

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:17 pm 
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Thanks Simon. Now if you could just move a couple of hundred miles south!
I'll sort the engine and then see what's next. It's not particularly a cost thing, whatever is "best" for the system, but the canems system is a fair chunk fitted so if there is no major advantage then maybe not.
What would the upgrade cost do you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:11 pm 
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Best is going to be subjective. As a multipoint system piggybacks off the existing petrol ECU then that is going to be your limiting factor and changing that is where the cost is going to be for minimal improvement. At risk of sounding like one of our graduates at work, you need to do a cost benefit analysis. A closed loop single point will be by far and away the cheapest option and if the correct components are used will have the car running no differently to on petrol (assuming it runs properly on petrol), a multipoint will cost more and might get you 5 bhp and half a mile per gallon more while going for something like the Canems will cost you considerably more and may be no better than the slave system. Even if it is, the difference won't be sufficient to be noticeable. If the engine was in a car that was going to be taken to Santa Pod and run down the quarter mile, you could probably spend hours on a rolling road dyno and get it peaked but I suspect you aren't going to be doing that.

A lot of people look down their noses at the idea of a single point but bear in mind that you would be fitting a system designed the same time as your LSE was built, so is appropriate technology for it. Done properly, it gives good results.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Dave, sent you a private message.

The last time I fitted a new LPG system on a Classic it was on one that the customer had saved from the scrapyard (where he found it). But he spent a lot of time and effort on it getting it looking and (almost) running like new before bringing the car to me, he'd done a fantastic job of it too.

Back on subject...
Out of interest, how much were you quoted for Canems fitted?
Most times I get as far as 200 miles South it's when I'm going that way on holiday... You might fancy a day's spring break up North ;-) :lol: Or (and I didn't mention this in the PM) I could come to you if you'd cover fuel costs plus a bit more for driving time.

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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