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 Post subject: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:26 am 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
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hey all

im struggling to be able to use the emer soft wear properly as it doesn't scale to the screen. the lower bar that displays things like gas pressure and obd status overlaps the bottom off the page

iv changed the resolution on the laptop to various sizes and it gets slightly better but still not brilliant
even tried portrait mode lol. but then I couldn't see the sides lol

ps im trying to rescale the injector times on the map. my car was mapped up to 18 but my car has petrol injection times up to 24


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:52 am 
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What's the best resolution you can get out of your laptop? Most widescreen ones run 1280x768 which is pretty piss poor on the vertical scale, non widescreen usually top out at 1024x768 which is no better. I've got a hi-res screen on mine that runs at 1680x1050 which is much better for just about everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:09 pm 
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1366×768 I think. it runs perfectly on my 4:3 work monitor lol. might drag it out to the car park haha


I can lower my screen to 4:3 size but then the whole program dosent fit on the screen. dosent seem to scale at all


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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If you try to run AEB (such as Emer) software on 64 bit Windows you can get funny results anyway - such as weird extra settings appearing, some settings not showing at all, some settings read incorrectly (e.g. fuel type shows methane when you set LPG), injection times and pressure readings can overlap or disappear off the bottom of screen.

As you're aware, you can adjust the range of the map in Emer software but that might be difficult if running 64 bit.

Incidentally, what car is this?

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
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Subaru impreza wrx 2.0 turbo

the tune on it has always been a bit @!## but a while back I looked on an obd reader tool and noticed that I was getting good AFR ratios till u booted it. then they went up to like 17ish

luckily it doesn't detonate so its not ruined the car

iv managed to rescale the map up to 25ms and iv done an auto calibration.
however the auto cal dosent seem to be working. iv check the lamba though and the LPG ecu cant see it (installer didn't wire it, relied on OBD connection) so I think this may stop the auto call from working?

it seems to work ok for the lower section ie top half off the map but now the lower half is even lower lol. getting AFR off 20! lol


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:33 pm 
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also im running the program in xp3 compatibility mode just for good measure

screen fitting issue also occurs on my work laptop which is 32 bit


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 Post subject: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:38 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:07 pm 
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Lack of lambda connection won't affect autocal. All autocal does is compare petrol injector duration running on gas to petrol injector duration running on petrol, trying to achieve no difference when you switch fuels. Autocal changes the numbers in the whole map but it only compares petrol injector duration off idle rpm with no engine load - on your Subaru we wouldn't really expect this to leave you with a map that is correct for load conditions... and maybe particularly when you've changed map reference points (which alters the numbers on the axis but not the numbers in cells - thus effecting the multiplier curve of the map).

I think you already know - If your AFR is 17:1 at high loads you will need to increase the numbers in the map that correspond to high load. While you're at it, watch LPG pressure (see if it falls off, if so by how much) and compare gas injector duration to petrol injector duration (don't want gas injector duration to exceed petrol injector by much or will need to increase reducer pressure to bring durations in line).

Check/adjust the other numbers in the map too - To check idle and part load calibration, use the OBD reader to check fuel trims under all conditions where the engine is running closed loop.

Your current map doesn't look very likely to be correct anyway..

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:55 pm 
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thanks for that
good info


the gas pressure is a rock solid 1.4 bar
but i think this is referenced to atmosphere rather than manifold so under boost im only getting 0.4 bar?


iv tried upping the values. its quite hard to know what to do though.

i noted that my gas MS is around double the petrol at idle and low revs. as i boot it, it increases up to around 14 but by then the petrol is at 24
even though iv got higher numbers in there now im getting aft off 20 lol. car just starts cutting out

i think i need to turn the pressure up full then try and retune


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:38 pm 
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Gas pressure is shown relative to manifold pressure (well, as long as pressure sensor vac connection runs to manifold..).

Depending on what gas injectors are fitted, would likely expect gas ms to be a fair bit higher than petrol ms at low loads. But with the numbers in your map it is surprising that gas injectors are at 14 when petrol are at 24.. Unless you have petrol addition or split fuelling enabled...

Show us screen shots of basic settings screen and gas/petrol screen ?

Simon

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 Post subject: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:28 pm 
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:34 pm 
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Used to have 1ms off petrol addition abouve 5k. And 1.4ms off petrol on extra injection sensitivity. I used to think this was tip in enrichment. But it's just while it's accelrating in general.

Iv added loads more in the map now almost double what it was be for.

Its a lot better. Still needs more work

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Your map is very wrong, numbers should get smaller toward bottom of screen - This isn't a real map, it is a slave map to the real (petrol) map. The petrol map will have bigger numbers around the torque peak, your slave map only exists to match LPG injector response to petrol injector response.

Extra injection sensitivity doesn't have much to do with petrol addition. Extra injection sensitivity settings are there to filter short petrol injection pulses between the main injection pulses. Probably best to disable extra injection filtering, not needed for your engine.. because it doesn't do extra injection!

Some engines do have extra injection pulses on acceleration, but not yours. If extra injection light comes on (near petrol switch graphic in software), maybe when engine is accelerating, this still has nothing to do with extra injection on acceleration - This is due to a bug that is present in most V6 AEB systems and is a point of pain for installers, particularly on 6 cyl installs where it is much more difficult to get around. But you can get around this bug on an 8cyl install by first ticking 'revolution signal type' box, tampering with settings in 'revolution signal type' and 'ignition type' boxes, and then unticking 'revolution signal type' again!

Would have been handy to see screen shots with engine running but as said your map is very wrong anyway.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:51 am
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Simon, we wonder if the bug may be in your PC or software version?, we have not seen any such problem with V6 installs nor had reports from any other customers. There is absolutely no problem with converting V6 or 8 engines with the AEB system/software.

Regards

Tinley Tech.


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:11 pm 
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We're not going to fall out, have discussed before and besides you sell other systems - not intended to do you any harm of course! Have said before, I usually fit AEB on 8cyls but not on 6 these days. Been some ideas about this from a few of us on the installer's section of the forum..

Bugger, just re-read post and it's not a BMW740 like I thought (for some reason) it was :oops:

Josh, your Subaru engine prob does have extra injection... Will need filtering set.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:19 pm 
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I will get some photos with it running
ill also try to do a couple pulls with the injection time and the revs


do you think its possible that the car is running ultra lean because its missing the second injections?

what sort off filtering should be applied

that wouldn't explain why it sees petrol injections higher than gas though. if the petrol MS is high its obviously seeing it?



im fairly sure it dose use petrol on tip in enrichment because iv ran out off petrol before and it runs like @!## when you put your foot down then runs find after a couple seconds


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:01 pm 
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I doubt it is running ultra lean because it is missing second injections. Second injections are very short, unlikely to make much difference to fuelling. The worst case scenario is probably opposite to the way your're thinking - Injection filtering is there for a few reasons: To prevent the LPG ECU interpreting a single very long petrol injector pulse by incorrectly reading pulse length as duration between a short and long (or long and short) pulse / to prevent LPG injectors trying to open and close twice for a single four stroke cycle (LPG injectors may not be able to follow that fuelling methodology because petrol injectors can open and close faster than LPG injectors)... The best way to deal with extra petrol injections is to ignore them, they don't effect fuelling hardly at all but trying to follow them can cause problems... We set up filtering to ignore them but we don't want to ignore short normal injection pulses (and turbo'd engines do run short normal pulses at low loads). If filtering isn't done correctly, both above scenarios would usually mean the engine would run too rich on LPG when the petrol ECU does extra injection.

You have set the acceleration enrichment slider to far left. Move it back to the right... The slider is more of a leaning in acceleration slider when moved to the left like that. This isn't like tip in and tip out on a BRC system, we usually leave that slider to far right (no leaning on acceleration) or just a couple of notches from far right.

Reasons it may run @!## when you put your foot down then run OK could be - Acceleration slider (mentioned above) - how you've set that will almost definitely cause problems on acceleration! / You may not have actually run out of petrol... given numbers in your map would expect the system to momentarily switch back to petrol at high rpm high load due to avoid full duty cycle of LPG injectors, so it may suddenly run OK when it's running on petrol! (Does the amber light on the switch flash when it's running OK? This denotes this condition). What year Subaru is this? I'm thinking I can't remember (long time since I've done a late model turbo'd Subaru) if a petrol return is necessary on later models (if so then running out of petrol would mean it would run @!## on LPG too).

Also bare in mind that if it is running so rich on LPG that it misfires, then lambda AFR/lambda may show lean even though it is very rich. In any case, you cannot leave the map like that with 200+ numbers in the 25ms row, figure in that row wants to be max of around 130 and if it runs lean like that then you need either more pressure, bigger nozzles or both.

Does RPM show correct on screen at all times, even during acceleration etc?

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:42 am
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wow. thanks for the decent reply! going to need to multiquote this one

LPGC wrote:
I doubt it is running ultra lean because it is missing second injections. Second injections are very short, unlikely to make much difference to fuelling. The worst case scenario is probably opposite to the way your're thinking - Injection filtering is there for a few reasons: To prevent the LPG ECU interpreting a single very long petrol injector pulse by incorrectly reading pulse length as duration between a short and long (or long and short) pulse / to prevent LPG injectors trying to open and close twice for a single four stroke cycle (LPG injectors may not be able to follow that fuelling methodology because petrol injectors can open and close faster than LPG injectors)... The best way to deal with extra petrol injections is to ignore them, they don't effect fuelling hardly at all but trying to follow them can cause problems... We set up filtering to ignore them but we don't want to ignore short normal injection pulses (and turbo'd engines do run short normal pulses at low loads). If filtering isn't done correctly, both above scenarios would usually mean the engine would run too rich on LPG when the petrol ECU does extra injection.

right. makes sense. iv searched online for the injector related information and theres no mention off any second injections online. there are very active tuning forums for this so it doesn't seem like it dose have second injections. could be wrong though

do I just disable it then? or do I have to maintain some filtering?
LPGC wrote:

You have set the acceleration enrichment slider to far left. Move it back to the right... The slider is more of a leaning in acceleration slider when moved to the left like that. This isn't like tip in and tip out on a BRC system, we usually leave that slider to far right (no leaning on acceleration) or just a couple of notches from far right.


oh well that's annoying. I was hoping that full left disabled it. in its current form if the slider is anything but far left or one from left it won't accelerate at all. it just bogs down and misfires. engine light starts flashing. ill put it on full right and then retune and see where it goes

LPGC wrote:
Reasons it may run @!## when you put your foot down then run OK could be - Acceleration slider (mentioned above) - how you've set that will almost definitely cause problems on acceleration! / You may not have actually run out of petrol... given numbers in your map would expect the system to momentarily switch back to petrol at high rpm high load due to avoid full duty cycle of LPG injectors, so it may suddenly run OK when it's running on petrol! (Does the amber light on the switch flash when it's running OK? This denotes this condition). What year Subaru is this? I'm thinking I can't remember (long time since I've done a late model turbo'd Subaru) if a petrol return is necessary on later models (if so then running out of petrol would mean it would run @!## on LPG too).


just to clarify it only runs like that when im out of petrol (defiantly empty. car wount start on petrol lol)

but that's only happened twice.

during normal running I see no yellow light

car is a 2004 wrx
LPGC wrote:
Also bare in mind that if it is running so rich on LPG that it misfires, then lambda AFR/lambda may show lean even though it is very rich. In any case, you cannot leave the map like that with 200+ numbers in the 25ms row, figure in that row wants to be max of around 130 and if it runs lean like that then you need either more pressure, bigger nozzles or both.


agreed. I need to sort it. the car is running quite well though lol. its defiantly faster

car runs about 14.7 closed loop
put my foot down and it goes open loop around 11.5 till about 3500 rpm then it slowly leans out until its at 17-18 afr about 5500 rpm and then it starts cutting out. its not a little stumble though. its a full blown jerk. quite violent. must be more than one cycle it cuts out for

LPGC wrote:
Does RPM show correct on screen at all times, even during acceleration etc?

Simon


I have noticed very occasionally that the RPM is wrong. im not sure how consistent though or if it may be problematic. ill try get the issue to occur and log the RPM at the same time. the logger is a bit @!## though


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 Post subject: Re: Emer softwear
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:52 pm 
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Josh,

Maybe best to advise resetting the LPG ECU and going with the standard preset filtering conditions and acceleration slider settings for now.

Reason it may run best when you blip the throttle with slider to far left is because the numbers in your map would make it too rich under load, but you have effectively leaned it off (for throttle blip situations) by setting slider to far left...

Have another look at what happens with rpm reading - make a note of what conditions make rpm reading show incorrect (blipping throttle etc?).

Doubt I need to advise about running petrol pumps without petrol damaging them. Different subject - Can you read petrol pressure on OBD scanner?

Simon

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