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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:47 pm 
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I have posted a couple of threads on here relating to the EML and rough idle I am experiencing. I took the truck to my nearest installer 6 months ago, Warren at AtoZ-LPG, who undertook a service and remap, but couldn't prevent the EML from showing. I recently took the truck for a second opinion to another installer, Neil at Medway Dual Fuel, who spent a fair bit of time trying to get to the bottom of the two issues. Again, he couldn't get to a solution and concluded that the next stage is to re-visit him when he gets a modern ECU on loan from Romano so that individual injectors can be tested (my ECU is too old for this feature) and potentially a spare Vaporiser on which the pressure can be adjusted (mine doesn't have a screw setting for this).

I have tried to get in touch with BOTH installers over the past couple of weeks to book the truck back in so that one of them can finally get the system working 100%. However, I'm finding it almost impossible to get hold of them via email or telephone, and when I do I get a "I'll call you back later" reply.

Are installers just not interested in fixing systems and would much rather just install new front ends? Or is there something about the way I smell that means these two just don't want to see me again!? Surely there is someone reliable out there who can just get the job done in one visit and won't faff about?

/rant


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:35 pm 
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Location: Yorkshire
Maybe one of your reasons for this thread might be to try to get a response from the installers you've had recent dealings with? In which case I would wish you luck with that but might still not be confident of a successful outcome.

I don't know the installers you mentioned and haven't heard much about them, so I can't comment on their diagnostics / repair skills or pass on customer stories. What I will say is that it seems not all installers that I hear about (from customers and/or on the grapevine) are apparently any good at diagnostics / repairs, especially on systems they might not be familiar with. On the other thread I did say that 'hiring an ECU' is an unusual thing to do, and other installers that I do respect (Rosko / Tubbs etc) agreed.

I wasn't aware Romano suppliers were in the habit of letting ECU's out for hire (but I can see they might be prepared to do so, some suppliers I have known for a long time might do that for me for free if shove came to push including the nice friendly people at Mint, or I can see some installers might be friendly with other installers that would be prepared to do so). However, most installers should in any case know that most other branded AEB ECU's could be used for the process that one of the installers you visited suggested (doesn't have to have a Romano badge on the ECU). If the installer doesn't have another AEB ECU handy to try on your car, or isn't willing to buy one, then that might suggest they don't fit or do many diagnostics involving AEB systems (and some people would read into the implications - such as possible lack of familiarity with what is still likely the most common 5/6/8 cylinder LPG system ECU in the UK). Some might accuse me of conspiracy theory, but to me by definition 'hiring' implies a charge, which I assume would then be passed onto the customer - But this wouldn't seem a logical way to proceed for an installer that might expect to fit an AEB 5/6/8 cylinder system shortly after looking at your car, while 'hiring' might also imply a time delay before they would be able to continue their diagnostics (some people might read into why a company would want to give customers the impression of a delay, or not answer calls / emails). Most installers will be much more familiar with the concept of buying an ECU and it arriving the next day, and of buying one of the most common ECUs used in the UK rather than hiring.

I recently correctly diagnosed and repaired problems on a Romano 8 cylinder system fitted on a RangeRover, using a different branded AEB2568 ECU (not Romano, same thing just costs less with the different badge) that I happened to have on the shelf (so to be ready to fit for my next 8 cylinder vehicle conversion, nothing suitable to fit it on as yet booked in but even so, I knew I would be using it soon, and I did use it soon, and then I replaced it with another one to keep in stock). I did a bit of a write-up about what I did during diagnostics / repairs on this occasion here: http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13682&start=20 and on this occasion it didn't cost the customer anything for parts.

EViS wrote:
]Are installers just not interested in fixing systems and would much rather just install new front ends? Or is there something about the way I smell that means these two just don't want to see me again!? Surely there is someone reliable out there who can just get the job done in one visit and won't faff about?
/rant
No... Personally, when I first started out with LPG conversions many years ago, I might have been more confident of fitting a new system (obviously with all new components) and getting good results than I would be of repairing an older system but now that I am very familiar at repairing systems (a very wide range of LPG systems) I find it is much easier work diagnosing and repairing LPG systems than installing them from scratch!

I am confident that if you had visited me, your problems would have been correctly diagnosed and repaired (if you wished) during the same visit. Just as I did in the above case (regarding the link), if you agreed I would write up on the forum everything I did during your visit and you would (of course) be free to comment publicly on the forum. If you're interested, my contact details are below. A fair distance from you just over the other side of the pennines along the M62, but you might consider it worth it and I hope to hear. If I can't fix it, your comments on the forum might damage my reputation, but I know it won't come to that!

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


Last edited by LPGC on Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
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Location: Milton Keynes
Hes a lot further away - He is in Surrey. True what you say though if you want it fixed it may be a case of travelling further afield though.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:21 pm 
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Hi Brian,

Ahh, bloomin eck... Not sure why, I thought he was around Warrington! :roll:

From Surrey would be a fair trek, still, if he'd like to come....

What do you reckon to your visit the other day?

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


Last edited by LPGC on Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Posts: 866
Location: Milton Keynes
Positive looks like what I thought had reached the end of its life can be pursuaded to work again. Just got to buy that sensor tomorrow and fit it over weekend. Will let you know what happens!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Good stuff Brian, I would hope so!

As said, I think changing that sensor (just the lambda sensor) will be your best bet now because part of my diagnosis was that it is currently only working even on petrol properly (closed loop) intermittently, while the rest of the time it is running in open loop error mode...

I'm also pleased we seem to have sorted the apparent fueling discrepancy between different cylinders (with the replacement distributor unit I supplied / fitted) along with ruling out issues with your manifold injectors, your stepper motor, the LPG ECU and LPG system map sensor... Was only running on 2 cylinders when you arrived, running on all 4 now at idle...

When you have replaced the lambda probe, if you still have no joy with your existing reducer fitted (noted previously the pressure adjustment seemed to be dodgy) and setting the pressure using the method I showed you, you will at least be able to fit the Koltec reducer I gave you and then set the pressure using the method I showed you.

Seems very much onto a winner and good outcome now! :wink: Would have been nice if I'd had a lambda probe on the shelf to fit, but then again I suppose no installer or garage stocks lambda probes as there are too many different types to stock suitable units for every vehicle. I keep them on the shelf for the main culprits like P38's etc.

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


Last edited by LPGC on Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
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EVis, you summed up the answer to your question in the question, installers. Installation is one thing, diagnostics is something completely different and in my experience some people have it and others don't. Unfortunately these days it seems to be becoming a dying art. It needs the ability to be able to visualise what should be happening and if something isn't right what the effect would be and whether or not it would affect something else. The alternative to diagnosis is to randomly swap bits until the fault goes away. Even then you don't know if that was the faulty component or if by changing it you disturbed something else. Rather than spend hours and clock up a huge labour bill for the customer, it would be simpler for an installer, and possibly cheaper for the customer, to do something he does understand and remove the system and fit a new one.

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:58 pm 
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Agreed with Gilbert.

I'll just add that in my view a diagnostic fee should never amount to a huge bill. Any combined diagnostics and repair bill should be less than the cost of fitting a similar new system. Any combined diagnostics, repair and fitting new system bill should never be much more than the cost of only fitting a similar new system. I think it would leave a bad taste in many customers mouths to realise that they could have had a new system fitted for a similar cost to their repair bill!

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:36 am
Posts: 200
Quote:
diagnostics is something completely different and in my experience some people have it and others don't. Unfortunately these days it seems to be becoming a dying art.


I don't think the lack of quality aftercare is a new thing. I'm not going to recount the lament of the Mondeo from hell, I've bored you all with that before, but even then, ten plus years ago when there were four installers in Leicester (i think there is one now) and five in Nottingham (today I don't know of any, the nearest being Derby) I still couldn't get what proved to be a simple problem on an OMVL system identified. I even emailed OMVL in Italy who referred me to their nearest "specialist" in Coventry who idenitfied that the problem was in the cars cylinder head, not the LPG system at all.

After an expensive and unnecessary head rebuild and still no solution I chose to replace the front end completely, which cost £200. Now in hindsight I should have done that right at the start, but I just didn't know and no "installer" offered that option. all I got was the sharp intake of breath, raised eyebrows, choruses of "oh dear" etc.

It just demonstrates what a bonus is it if you are local to a trusted installer such as those who post here who can not only ensure your system is installed properly but can maintain it for you.

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_______________________________________
Former owner of "The Mondeo From Hell"
Now in a Honda.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Location: Yorkshire
10 Years ago I was only installing OMVL, Paul, maybe I would have sorted the Mondeo if you'd known and chosen to come! Bit further North though. lol

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:07 pm
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Simon,

Your replies are truly appreciated! We have some friends in Leeds who we have been meaning to visit for a while now, so maybe we need to get a date set with them and I can visit you whilst we're up there. Would end up being a weekend day though...

I admire your confidence to get the system sorted, but then so have both local installers! What are the chances that you would have all the correct spares in stock and not end up having to scratch around to fit a slightly incompatible part to improve the system but not get it 100%. Obviously we'd need to chat through what I currently have and I'd send you a couple of pictures, but would it be worth your time to then get some spares?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Evis,

I don't stock any new Romano badged parts but I do keep all parts in stock to fix Romano systems without scratching around or fitting incompatible components.. If I were to replace any Romano component with a none Romano component, the part I would fit would be just as compatible, very likely to be superior in spec and would cost you less.

As implied above, Romano is an AEB based system, the electronics are made by AEB, an AEB ECU wearing a different brand sticker will work just as well with your other existing components. Old injectors are best replaced as a set (if one is worn to the point of causing a problem then the others are likely not far from a similar condition either) - Better performing injectors and reducers are available for a fraction of the price, they will all work with AEB ECUs including Romano ECUs. Fitting different branded components should in no way be considered scratching around or fitting incompatible components. Should any parts be needed (we would hope not), you wouldn't be doing yourself any favours replacing like with like!

I am very confident of fixing all the problems, the only proviso being there is nothing wrong with the truck itself (something other than the LPG system wrong), as I obviously won't have a complete set of standard truck parts on the shelf!

Will be able to see you over a weekend.. My email address cheapmotoring@yahoo.co.uk, probably not much to see but won't hurt if you'd like to send me some pics.

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Just to say I did fix EVIS's vehicle when he drove up from Surrey around Easter bank holiday. It now runs well on either petrol or LPG.

Within 5 minutes of his arrival I had found that there was no fuel return active, and that the vehicle definitely needed one to stand any chance of proper LPG system calibration. I checked and found no fuel return was fitted (a none working fuel return could have been fitted and just needing repair).

I had a wide range of parts in stock to make up a fuel return but after a discussion on pros and cons of different options EVIS and I reached a joint decision not to fit one.. The vehicle had an unusual fuel feed to the engine with a mixture of metal and plastic fuel pipe with only a very short length of braided rubber fuel hose in the engine bay. Though it was very likely that attempting to fit a return would have resulted in success, the consequences for cutting a pipe and then not being able to join them back together for lack of correct piping adaptors on a bank holiday weekend would have meant EVIS would have been stranded until suppliers re-opened. Instead of fitting a fuel return it was decided to use a petrol addition to the LPG fueling map as this would could certainly keep fuel pressure within normal working range. Petrol addition was attempted with the elderly Romano ECU but this ECU wasn't capable, so after another chat on pros and cons we fitted a newer ECU that is capable of petrol addition.

As expected (and explained) with 1ms petrol addition added across the complete rpm and load range (just enough to keep petrol pressure where it should be), the Romano injectors would have been working below the minimum cycle duration (the 1ms subtracted from the total 3ms), so besides the petrol addition the LPG system also had to be set to idle on petrol.

Had a chat with EVIS after his drive home and then again a few days after that. All was well, problems sorted. He was going to see how much petrol he used with the petrol addition being active, let me know if he was happy to keep it like that, and give a bit of feedback on the forum. Not heard from him since, I presume he's not using much petrol with only 1ms in the setup and he's happy to keep it as is.

Pity he found it necessary to come all the way to Yorkshire from Surrey for a proper diagnosis and repair though.

I didn't see a 'smug' emoticon :lol:

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:07 pm
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Having been disappointed by two installers already, I hope you excuse me for having held off for 3 months before returning to leave a review. It's given me enough time to see how Simon's work and advice has fared.

First up, Simon was an absolute gent and any perceived arrogance on the forum is fully backed up by his limitless knowledge of all things LPG and mechanics. His description of the day's events is spot on and I'll let him blow his own trumpet all day long for solving the issue at hand very quickly in deed. He was straight up with what he would do if it was his own vehicle (his labour obviously being free to himself) and provided options for myself and the worthwhile costs of each.

The solution I opted for, as already explained by Simon, was a new ECU with petrol addition activated. Simon was reluctant to sell me a new ECU seeing as my one was working, merely missing modern functions, one of which was the petrol addition. However, it seemed like the optimum balance of upgrading something worthwhile (i.e. a 9 year old ECU will be giving up eventually), and having petrol addition turned on to not only cure the EML but also to act as a form of valve lube.

The drive home was incredible. The power was there, the EML was off, and the idle was much better, although not quite perfect. 3 months on and things are still looking great. The only downside is that I am using a fair bit of petrol, £25 of petrol for every £70 LPG fill and it is beginning to hurt the wallet a tad. However, valvesaver isn't free either and I do get quite a few extra miles out of each fill, so the additional cost, at a guess, probably works out at around £15 more per tank.

So would I recommend Simon? You'd think it was an easy 'yes'. But unfortunately that's not quite the case. 'Yes' doesn't quite cut it, 'ABSOLUTELY-ONE-HUNDRED-PERCENT-WITHOUT-A-SECOND-TO-PAUSE-YES' is more like it. Simon is an honest and caring technician and a real asset to the industry.

As Simon has already pointed out, for me it's a real shame the other two local guys I visited don't quite cut the grade in knowledge or customer service. A bit of trek to see him, but he did offer lunch and tea whilst with him ;).

ps. Simon, you may have already or may yet to receive a call from another Southerner who I have since passed your details onto.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Stroking my eyebrows as I read EVIS :lol:
Thanks very much for the feedback.
Cheers,
Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:35 pm 
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You need to grow a mustache in that case Simon ;).

I'd be interested to hear other people's views on how effective a 1ms petrol addition is as a valve lube compared to a standalone valvesaver setup?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:07 pm 
Installer

Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
Posts: 2943
Location: Yorkshire
Evis (Tom) came back with his F150 on Friday (10/02/17), because his F150 had started playing up again.

This time I found that one of his old Romano injectors (in particular) wasn't dosing properly. Swapped in a new set of OMVL injectors, which meant also changing the LPG injector plugs on the loom because his Romano loom was fitted with Bosch style plugs to LPG injectors where most other types of injector (including OMVL) use Supaseal plugs.

I also fitted an electronic petrol pressure emulator and configured it properly to very closely match actual petrol pressure when running on petrol. This allowed the constant petrol addition to be turned off, so at this point the F150 would run totally on LPG after switching to LPG... except when booting it, when it would beep back to petrol due to low gas pressure.

His old Romano reducer wouldn't keep up with gas flow demand at high engine loads, but now with petrol addition facility available to use for intended purpose, I was able to prevent running lean or switching back to petrol by configuring a petrol addition for high engine load conditions... This only occurs with right foot near the floor, so in normal driving he won't use any petrol.

Since constant petrol addition was not now applied, I fitted a valve lube system on the Ford.

All the above was of course only agreed on and carried out after explaining the pros and cons of all the options available to Tom. We agreed all points above were the best ways forward.

Most recent email from Tom, who came all the way from Surrey, ends like this - 'thank you once again for a very nice job, as before, I'm truly impressed with you sir!'

Cheers Tom!

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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