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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Good day all,

Firstly I would like to say thankyou to someone (don't know who) for writing the articles
'System Setup - tuning open loop system'
'System Setup 2 - tuning a closed loop system'
I used these to reset my system.

I have a 1961 MkII Jaguar 3.8 Ltr that I rebuilt from a rotten wreck and finally put back on the road 10 years ago. At 17mpg I quickly bought a kit from a local supplier in Scunthorpe (since moved to Ireland). I have contacted 'Tinley Tech.' (the supplier of my system to the local man) over the years to buy a lead and program, then updates to win7 and a recon kit for the OMVL evaporator.

My system is:- Leonardo AEB175, OMVL R90/E, Narrowband Lambda probe (recently replaced) and 6mm pipe valves and tank fittings, 2 gas cabs on the 1.75" SU carbs.

After numerous problems on holiday in Croatia, the Canems ignition ECU MkI was replaced for Davids MkIII ECU and this works well now, but It became obvious the LPG sytem had problems.

Using the above articles (copied onto paper) I now have the idle valve closed and have turned the bias adjustment 10 flats anti-clockwise so that it now scans, on the motorway in 4th gear the actuator is moving but in overdrive it is full open (250) and approx 0.65volt on lambda probe. At 70 mph the car still accelerates cleanly on full throttle and in mid range red (lambda scale).

Question - is the above working as well as can be expected, or should I turn the bias adjuster more anti clockwise to bring the Default setting below 228 if possible?

Sorry for the lengthy text, any advise, comments much appreciated.

Brian


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:47 pm 
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Martec wrote:
Firstly I would like to say thankyou to someone (don't know who) for writing the articles
'System Setup - tuning open loop system'
'System Setup 2 - tuning a closed loop system'
I used these to reset my system.

As you found later, that was me. I must apologise for not replying to your email - things have been rather busy lately for various reasons.
Quote:
I have a 1961 MkII Jaguar 3.8 Ltr ...

My system is:- Leonardo AEB175, OMVL R90/E, Narrowband Lambda probe (recently replaced) and 6mm pipe valves and tank fittings, 2 gas cabs on the 1.75" SU carbs.
...
Using the above articles (copied onto paper) I now have the idle valve closed and have turned the bias adjustment 10 flats anti-clockwise so that it now scans, on the motorway in 4th gear the actuator is moving but in overdrive it is full open (250) and approx 0.65volt on lambda probe. At 70 mph the car still accelerates cleanly on full throttle and in mid range red (lambda scale).

Question - is the above working as well as can be expected, or should I turn the bias adjuster more anti clockwise to bring the Default setting below 228 if possible?

Something is not right with your setup. Default of 228 is too high - it's almost fully open and there's very little headroom left. The fact that the actuator is fully open at high speed/high power indicates that there is insufficient gas available. The high default setting indicates that it's not a supply problem - and in any case, 6mm pipe with an OMVL reducer should be good for a lot more than 3.8l.

I'd say you need to be looking at the mixers/carbs. When you say carbs, do you mean mixers (as in the traditional "cooker ring"), or do you mean carb (as in something like the Blos gas carbs) ? Either way, unless there is a restriction in your vapour line, I'd suggest your mixers/carbs just aren't generating enough "suck" to draw in enough gas.
This is a problem I struggled with on my Disco. The mixers that came with it just never did work right - and I tried various tricks like drilling out the holes and fitting a bit of pipe across the diameter. Different mixers got the mixture something like right, but I never could balance them - simultaneously showing excess oxygen (weak) and excess HC (rich) at idle leading to MoT failure. In the I replaced the two mixers with a single one, and a T pipe to split the single airflow across the two carbs.

I don't really understand sizing mixers, and it seems from comments by others that even experienced installers can find it a bit of a black art.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Thank you Simon for your reply, My terminalogy for the LPG parts is wrong, by 'Gas carbs I mean mixers.

I have two HD6 S.U's but the inlet throat size is 1.625" (41mm) dia.

Bolted to this is the mixer ring (Bigas), it is not like a gas ring (small holes around the inner edge as I have seen in adverts) but has a smooth throat 35mm dia with a big boss (20mm dia) in the centre on the end of a steel tube coming from the bottom (gas supply), the boss has a bore of 7mm. A picture speaks a thousand words but I don't know how to put one on here.

This is one hell of a restriction but I put up with it for the cost of LPG. Are the gas ring type mixers better?

The last rolling road run showed 110bhp on petrol at the wheels and 109bhp on LPG, apparently this equates to approx 160bhp at the flywheel, down about 10bhp from expected for a 3.8 ltr on 8to1 compresion ratio. The 3.8's are more about torque than horsepower. Like most manufacturers of the time William Lyons streatched the true to 220bhp. The different ignition map for gas has improved response.

As your articles say if you understand how it is supposed to work you then have a basis to work from. I'm not sure what the next step is, it is at least running, and a lot better than before.

Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Seems well down on power to me caused, I rather suspect, by the restriction placed on the induction system by the mixers. Standard gas ring types are available for SUs (see http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Mi ... stems.html) which may give you an increase in power on both fuels.

There are two ways of inserting pictures into a post. Either use the Upload Attachment feature below the box you write your post in if the filesize is quite small, or upload your picture to somewhere like Photobucket and then use the [img] command to insert a link to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Testing this out, attached should be a picture of the HD6 carbs and the mixers. The 1.75"(44.5mm) carbs have an inlet throat of 1.625" (41mm) and the effective mixer dia is 29.6mm. On the throat this is a 72% reduction or on the butterfly a 66.5% reduction in dia.

Would the cooker ring type mixer be more efficient than these mixers as I am running lean at higher load???

Brian


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:42 pm 
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With that amount of restriction in the intakes, I'm surprised it runs much above idle! The ones I linked to on the earlier post will definitely reduce the restriction. I suspect the size will be about right to, being correct for a 3.5 litre LR V8 on twin SUs.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 12:13 am 
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Before we condemn the mixers, can we go back a step?
If the problem is the mixers obstructing full throttle airflow, it will be just as evident when running petrol.
The reported loss from "book guesstimate bhp" of less than 10% on the rolling road seems about right, I reckon the mixers are fine.

Martec wrote:
on the motorway in 4th gear the actuator is moving but in overdrive it is full open (250) and approx 0.65volt on lambda probe. At 70 mph the car still accelerates cleanly on full throttle and in mid range red (lambda scale)

Here's the real clue ; it's not working right at all under these conditions. The Leo is opening the actuator in response to the lambda voltage ... but a reading of 0.65 is just wrong.

(As an aside, if one interprets the actuator opening up as meaning lean at speed then you'd be thinking about smaller mixers to richen it up ...)

What kind of sensor is fitted? If it is a heated type I would suggest the heater is bust. If it is not a heated type I think you should fit one.

There may be a more obscure problem lurking. What lambda readings do you get if you rev it up on the driveway for half a minute to get the sensor sticking hot? Swinging between less than 0.2V and over 0.8V? If not, there is an issue. Could be just a sick sensor, or ...

A one-wire sensor for instance relies on a well-earthed exhaust system - and it usually isn't earthed well, especially on a luxury car not designed for sensors. Need a two-wire type at least, but as earlier I would suggest a heated type, so 4-wire to get the signal earth too.

If all that is okay, it could still be earthing issues. A 0.3v difference in earth between engine and body can ruin sensor readings for the Leo without much other effect ; check the engine earth strap and the Leo's earth point.

As a complete irrelevance to all this, have you heard of the nifty trick for lifting the SU piston when running gas to avoid needle wear?

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:52 am 
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rossko wrote:
A one-wire sensor for instance relies on a well-earthed exhaust system - and it usually isn't earthed well, especially on a luxury car not designed for sensors. Need a two-wire type at least, but as earlier I would suggest a heated type, so 4-wire to get the signal earth too.

If all that is okay, it could still be earthing issues. A 0.3v difference in earth between engine and body can ruin sensor readings for the Leo without much other effect ; check the engine earth strap and the Leo's earth point.

I'll second that. I always make up a loom for the LPG system and take all the earths back to one point, and on something like the Range Rover where the EFI system is it's own loom, I'll use the EFI system earth fairly close to the ECU. I learned the hard way to keep the power and signal earths separate - when I'd finished this particular conversion I just couldn't understand the readings from the lambda probe. When I sat down and did some sums, I worked ou that the current from the solenoid valves was enough to create about 1/2 volt along the shared earth wire, and this meant that the lambda probe would only signal between "neither lean nor rich" and "very rich" as seen by the Leonardo. The Leonardo of course then kept winding down the default to try and get the mixture right until the engine wouldn't run on gas. Once I separated the signal earth (carrying no current) from the power earths (carrying current but not volt drop sensitive) it was all fine.

The most embarrassing thing about this is that I shouldn't even have considered doing it - it's not as if electrics and electronics isn't one of my hobbies :oops:
Quote:
As a complete irrelevance to all this, have you heard of the nifty trick for lifting the SU piston when running gas to avoid needle wear?

Do you know of a reasonably simple and reliable way of doing that ? When I did my Disco, the kit came with a solenoid valve that was claims to apply vacuum to the top of the piston and lift them (via pipe stubs tapped into the top of the damper tube). Quite frankly it was a waste of space and was never going to work - tiny, tiny valve and tubing that wouldn't have ever made enough vacuum given the leakage past the piston.
I did consider some manual methods - but none of them seemed practical.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Hi,

Thanks for resurrecting this post, I changed the 4 wire narrow band lambda probe to a new one as the readings seemed odd.

When I fitted the system I kept going back to the local supplier for advice and he was insistant an separate earths. With an ECU for ignition I have something like 8 separate earths direct to the negative battery post.

But I take your point and will check it out, Its so long since I fitted it I need to reaquaint myself with the wiring.

With the resetting of the LPG system (thanks again for your advice), mounting a vacuum point in the inlet manifold (rather than a carb) and the ignition ECU remapped to suit, the car has never felt so good. It accelerates so quickly and cleanly on full throttle at low revs its becoming addictive.

All work had stopped due to my garage floor crumbling, an axle stand going through the concrete and the car just missing me on its way down (floor was old and only 2" thick!!!!). With the help of local builders I now have a new 4" slab with steel reinforcing, and level for once. I can now retreive my tools from friends garages and catch up on the back log, my wifes Porsche 944 now has a transmision fault. but the Jaguar needs testing before a run to France next month. I need to burn a few tankfulls to get an accurate consumption (brim to brim).

I'll check the earths and the program readings again.

Thanks

Brian


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Well We took the Jaguar to France, 1800 mile round trip and had a good time and met some nice people. The brake fluid consumption problem had I thought been fixed by removing a leaking valve, but it reappeared when in France. For the first 450 miles we were getting some back fires again so kept speed down to 65mph (it is a weaker mix at 70 in overdrive. Again a change of plugs cured it, gapped to 30 thou (these are NGK 6 heat range).

I enjoyed giving it the boot on clear open roads, but we could not find gas once away from the peage, so did some running on petrol and we were advised to use 98 octane so doubly painful. On the way back we were up to 80 (homeward bound) and again found it wanted to backfire, rough running before backfire, when climbing hills so used 4th gear and no problem.

The car does hurt me some but I love it and the sense of acheivement of taking a 50 year old car far from home and back is worth it. The brake servo was full of oil and has now been sent away for recon, but I also checked the old plugs they had opened up from 30 thou to 37-41 thou in 2000 ish miles, whereas the 'new' plugs have done 1350 miles and still at 30 thou gap????? I have regapped the 'old plugs to 28thou and put them back in, but it is running a bit lumpy at idle (no brakes so can't test it at present)

I'm wondering if I have the wrong heat range for gas as 5's are recommended for the old XK engine on petrol, also I think the plugs need regapping more frequently on gas??? It was always recommended to regap at 6000 miles on old petrol engines when I was a lad (mini's).

Recommendations for plug heat range and gap would be much appreciated.

Brian


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Thank you all for your help and comments in the past and I'm back again asking for guidance for my MkII 3.8 ltr Jaguar with an OMVL 90E evaporator, Leanardo ECU, 4 wire Lambda and strange mixers.

I have spent a lot of time finding a comfortable set of front springs (now under 3 hours to change front springs) and have moved onto the LPG system.

From advise I've added a lot more advance above 1800 revs.
Measured the ignition lead resistance 10- 19Kohms (possibly @!##)
Dismantled the vapour line looking for restrictions and found none.
Replaced the liquid line filter (10 years old - should have known better)
Removed the evaporator drain plug - found clean.
Checked the earths, Ignition ECU has 4 earths back to the battery.
The LPG system now has 5 earths back to the battery
I found that I had joined both signal and heater Lambda earths together and then run to the battery, they now have separate earths to the battery.
I recently replaced the NGK BPR6ES plugs with BPR5EIX (iridium) as the old ones only seemed to last 1800 miles.
The air cleaner is sealed to the inlet by a 2" wide rubber band, this was replaced as it was rotten and leaking air.

I have been out today and adjusted the Bias valve, to increase gas flow and one flat open on the idle valve. All was fine until the rubber band slipped allowing in air and a quick succession of back fires.

The read outs so far are default 210
Sometimes actuator 170 lambda yellow and 0.57-0.69V
Fast idle at 2000rpm actuator 250 and in the green 0V
When I drive away it is in the green up to 1800rpm then goes to amber (scanning)(approx 0.5V)
Steady state at 70mph overdrive 210 actuator and amber scanning lambda, full throttle from here and the actuator goes to 250 and lambda is scanning amber.
A bootful of throttle at lower revs will show green momentarily and then to amber or low red (you can feel the green by uneven running for a few seconds.

Questions please:

Fast idle in the green is confusing, is this right?
I'm still getting a default of 210, seems too high?
As the lambda probe is only a £65 universal (replaced this year) has this gone again after so many backfires?
Am I expecting too much for an old (10years) system to be reasonably accurate over the full range?

It goes remarkably well for an old banger (literally) but I have to be careful not to give it full throttle at low revs.

Your guidance and expertise would be much appreciated.

Brian


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Martec wrote:
The read outs so far are default 210
Sometimes actuator 170 lambda yellow and 0.57-0.69V
Fast idle at 2000rpm actuator 250 and in the green 0V
When I drive away it is in the green up to 1800rpm then goes to amber (scanning)(approx 0.5V)
Steady state at 70mph overdrive 210 actuator and amber scanning lambda, full throttle from here and the actuator goes to 250 and lambda is scanning amber.
A bootful of throttle at lower revs will show green momentarily and then to amber or low red (you can feel the green by uneven running for a few seconds.

Questions please:

Fast idle in the green is confusing, is this right?
I'm still getting a default of 210, seems too high?
As the lambda probe is only a £65 universal (replaced this year) has this gone again after so many backfires?
Am I expecting too much for an old (10years) system to be reasonably accurate over the full range?

It goes remarkably well for an old banger (literally) but I have to be careful not to give it full throttle at low revs.

Your guidance and expertise would be much appreciated.

Brian
Default sounds way too high, my old Saab used to run at around 80 and the two Range Rovers run at around 110-120. At 2,000 rpm it is running very weak, hence the lambda in the green. You need to adjust the vaporiser bias to get the default much lower, somewhere in the middle but I wouldn't be happy with anything higher than 160-170. If you get it sitting there at 2,000 rpm with the lambda flip-flopping between red and green, then you should be able to get it to read roughly the same at idle with the idle bleed screw. If you can't, you are looking at mixers that aren't properly matched to the engine. If everything is correct, the actuator will stay at around the default (or within 20 either way) under all conditions.

Cheapo lambda sensors from the Universal Lambda senosr company of China don't last too well, but £65 would suggest a decent one (I only paid £40 for a genuine NTK one for my Saab). Backfires won't affect the lambda sensor as it will be backfiring through the inlet and not the exhaust. If it is backfiring through the exhaust you have a different problem entirely. I replaced the lambda sensor on my P38 when I first got it a couple of years ago with a £20 off eBay universal one. It recently started to intermittently stop working so I've replaced it again, this time for a £12 off eBay one with a 12 months warranty. At that price, I'll probably just bung a new one in every year!

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:36 am 
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Martec wrote:
Sometimes actuator 170 lambda yellow and 0.57-0.69V

This is wrong and pants. Once warmed up, the sensor should show close to 0V or close to 0.9V (usually switching between of course) but never hang around the middle. With a rubbish input you can only expect Leo to behave badly.

Martec wrote:
A bootful of throttle at lower revs will show green

Do you have any kind of throttle position sensing for Leo? If there isn't even a switch, it's never going to be brilliant at handling throttle stabs. Won't make any difference to steady state running or your major mixture issues, its just a refinement.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Thanks for both your replys, I'm going to burn another tank of gas tomorrow and adjust the vaporiser again.

Rossko, by 'rubbish in' are you refering to the lambda signal?

and No there is no other signal input than the engine speed input and the 4 wire lambda probe.

Brian


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Yes, the signal that the Leo is seeing from the sensor.
Once warmed up, the sensor should show close to 0V or close to 0.9V (usually switching between of course) but never hang around the middle.
If it doesn't, its cold, broke, or there's an offset voltage e.g. from a bad earth or an incorrect type selection in Leo settings.
All other faults can only make it stick high or low, not in the middle.
Can you monitor heater current?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Rossko, any idea of the current draw of the heat, as if its low enough I can use a cheap multimeter, I have enough of them. one in each car, but they usually only accept low current.

I'll splice one in and see if it survives.

Brian


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:49 pm 
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They should draw a couple of Amps or more, so a cheapo 500mA meter won't last too long......

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:53 am 
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From memory when I first started playing with them, they can take about 3A when cold, and this drops as they warm up. Half an amp as GilbertD says sounds about right once warmed up.
It almost certainly varies between makes, and probably between individual devices for the cheap ones :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:45 pm 
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Thanks again for the replies, today I looked at my multimeters and all were very low ampage. I've been trying to find a wiring diagram of using a small ampage multimeter across or in series with a shunt to measure the true ampage, all in vain.

Took the porsche for and it passed its MOT (what a rubbish bit of paper now).

This afternoon I didn't adjust anything and did approx 100 miles on rough roads and motorway and purposely didn't take the laptop. It drove really well, no back fire and as I became more confident I used a lot more coarse throttle and acceleration in overdrive. The lambda probe is obviously lying as it could not be weak and take the hammering I gave it, as good if not better than on petrol.

I told lies before, the probe is a 'FuelParts' item and cost £34 from a local factors in March 2011. It replaced the original (11years and 30,000miles) which was stamped up as NTK and some numbers, the motor factors found from NTK somehow that it was not their numbers, a chinese copy???

As I can't check the ampage I'll dismantle the wiring again tomorrow and see if it still has a voltage supplied and check the earths again. It might be working OK at present but the reading doesn't correspond it its actions. Thanks again for your continued help.

Brian


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:25 pm 
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Martec wrote:
Thanks again for the replies, today I looked at my multimeters and all were very low ampage. I've been trying to find a wiring diagram of using a small ampage multimeter across or in series with a shunt to measure the true ampage, all in vain.

Does this help? TBH it would be cheaper to buy a slightly better meter with a higher current measuring capability.

Martec wrote:
Took the porsche for and it passed its MOT (what a rubbish bit of paper now).

Bit of a disappointment when I got mine! Looks very easy to forge too.

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