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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:49 pm 
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mat_fenwick wrote:
Bit of a disappointment when I got mine! Looks very easy to forge too.
I thought exactly the same when I got the LSE tested a couple of weeks ago. Then realised that even if you tax it at a Post Office, they scan the V5 or renewal and I bet if the MoT wasn't genuine, it wouldn't let them issue a tax disc.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:34 am 
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mat_fenwick wrote:
Bit of a disappointment when I got mine! Looks very easy to forge too.

They are, and were, very easy to forge - that's (in part) why the system was computerised, there were massive numbers of "dodgy" MoT certificates about.

The bit of paper you get isn't really worth much, other than confirmation to you that it passed. The "official" record is now on the computer - so if that's wrong you are up s**t creek if you get spotted by an ANPR check and/or police. Good luck persuading them that the computer is wrong and no you aren't driving a vehicle without an MoT.

There is a site, whos address escapes me at the moment, where you can check the MoT status. Always do this before buying a car, and I reckon it's worth checking shortly after your test to be sure the main system has updated properly. As well as telling you that there is an MoT, it also tells you the history since computerisation was introduced - including all advisories and retests (makes sobering reading if you drive an old shed :roll:)

The current system is real-time, so it's easier for the authorities to do "quality checks" on testing stations. The inspectors can sit outside in a car, see what the station is supposed to be testing, and then walk in knowing what vehicle should be in the bay, and who is supposedly testing it (with photo). If anything doesn't match then there are likely to be some uncomfortable questions to answer :oops: The days of the testers mate filling out forms without even seeing the vehicle should be long gone :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:13 pm 
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SimonHobson wrote:
There is a site, whos address escapes me at the moment, where you can check the MoT status.
It's this one http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Ow ... G_10020539. Interestingly, it also shows what fuel the car was tested on and my LSE seems to have been tested on petrol sometimes and LPG others for some reason.

They have also tightened up on failures for things like blown light bulbs. I took a car in for test that, despite me checking them before going, had a blown sidelight bulb. I fitted a new one there and it all passed. They then issued me with a failure and a pass. It was explained that they had been visited by VOSA who wanted to know why they never failed anyone on faulty lights and they told him that they will just put a new bulb in and pass it. This was making them look lax as they were passing a higher percentage of vehicles than other testing stations. So now, they will fail it, abort the test, fit a new bulb, retest it and pass it. Makes sense but seems a bit overcomplicated to me.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:47 pm 
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I've heard that some countrys don't issue a ticket at all.

I borrowed a nice Fluke from a friend and the ampage starts at 1.4A and drops to 0.75A, the outside of the probe gets warm (ignition on but engine not running).

I'll cut the leads off tomorrow and with it running on choke on petrol I should get a reading of 1 volt???

Brian


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:43 pm 
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You shouldn't need to cut anything, just unplug the Leonardo - you may have to jumper the two yellow wires in the loom, it depends how the system is wired, but it's not likely on a carb installation.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:54 pm 
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Heater current sounds sensible, difficult to test if it holds up on the road though. I can imagine a rattly heater cooling off on the motorway?

For a fair test, don't cut anything use a backprobe (paperclip?) on the wires at the Leo connector with it plugged in and powered up, in both petrol and gas modes. As I hinted about sensor type selection in software, it is possible for the Leo to apply a bias voltage to the sensor when that isn't wanted.

P.S. "They are, and were, very easy to forge - that's (in part) why the system was computerised" humm shades of UKLPG certification there ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:21 am 
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rossko wrote:
humm shades of UKLPG certification there ;)
You're in a mischievous mood for Christmas Ross........ Don't start that one up again please.

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'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:30 pm 
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I found these last few posts tooooo late, now. Earlier I checked the heater resistance when cold 8.6ohms then cut the 4 leads to the lambda sensor (see trying to learn the correct terms) and with it in the vice and a multimeter clipped to the black and grey terminals I applied a small gas torch (had previously read of test). It started at 0volts and went up to 9.7volts (flickering all over the place, and back to very low when torch removed), so assuming this is fine I refitted it, hooked up the laptop and went for a drive, still the same, green up to 2000 revs, hits red when foot removed, stays mostly in the yellow above 2000revs.

In overdrive at 40mph and 1500 revs ish it accelerates cleanly with full throttle - in the green

Now Rossko you have me intrigued with the 'bias voltage for the' Leanardo', in the settings it is down as 0-1 volt (from memory). Although it is now running coil pack ignition I have not changed any setting from first installation (10 years ago).

Are you suggesting using a paperclip in the signal (black on the sensor) wire and the earth (grey) to test the lambda output?? and where would I find the Bias setting???

And there was me thinking I might be understanding this lot at last.

I've been looking at replacement sensors, under £20 on ebay or £60 for Bosch or NTK, as this is an old engine and more likely to burn oil than modern engines (I rebuilt it 30,000 miles ago) would you recommend going for a cheap one and replace it each year as a consumable or an expensive one for longevity??

Brian


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:37 pm 
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I should have added
Merry Christmas to everyone

Brian


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:25 am 
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The Leo is capable of dealing with different sensor types.
The Zirconia type, the most common, generates its own voltage, almost always 0 to 1V range.
The Titania type (as found on some Landrovers and Jags) is effectively a variable resistor and requires a bias voltage being applied to it from an external source.
The Leo's software sensor type settings (type1, type2) are what instructs it to apply a bias voltage - or not, more usually.

You've almost certainly got fitted a Zirconia (self generating) type.
You've almost certainly got the software set for a standard 0-1V type (self generating), so that the Leo does not try to apply a bias voltage.
My point was just to make sure, because if you inadvertantly select a biased sensor type in software it will bugger the readings from a non-biased sensor.

My suggestion was to use a paperclip probe arrangement to see what voltage is actually arriving at the Leo's connector. Leo's purple is signal input, if you meter between that and Leo's black wire you should see a voltage agreeing with the laptop display. If not, the Leo is buggered. Metering between the purple wire and battery ground should look just the same. If not, you've got earthing issues.

You should see no volts ever between sensor grey wire and Leo black wire, they should both be good grounds.

If there is anything connected to Leo's grey wire, there is something horribly wrong in your particular carb setup. That's only used for emulated lambda to an engine management systemn that you don't have.

Your descriptions of the sensor indicating 'yellow' I'm guessing to mean the yellow bar lit on the Leo's laptop display, which would indicate a detected sensor vcoltage that isn't close to 0 (green) or close to 1V (red) - and which you should never see after the sensor has warmed up, except briefly when passing from red to green or vice-versa.
A sustained yellow is telling you there is something wrong about the lambda sensing, which is why I'm banging on about it. My concern is to identify why the Leo is apparently seeing sustained yellow.

Sustained red or green tells you there is a mixture problem, which you can address by mixer or regulator or step motor changes etc., but there is no point following that path unless you can trust the sensor readings. You should not see sustained yellow, so we cannot trust it.

On a general note, it sounds like like your 'green' under most driving conditions suggests its a bit lean and needs a tweak on the regulator. Note that the sensor isn't capable of saying 'just right', only 'a bit rich' or a 'a bit lean'. That means it could say 'green' when you are 99.99% correct on the mixture - which would certainly drive just fine. But, you can't rely on any of that if your sensor is unreliable.
It would also report 'green' if your mixture was only 50% of ideal, but you''d notice serious driveabilty problems then. The only way you can sure the mixture is on the money is when the reading is flicking red-to-green-and-back while the Leo is making small adjustements to stepper opening and keeping things teetering on that brink.

Sustained 'red' on the overrun is pretty much what I'd expect on a Leo system with no throttle sensing. It cannot know when throttle is off so it cannot know to cut/reduce the fuelling. That's not a big problem, just a refinement.
Again, seeing that 'red' under those conditions may well not indicate a disaster - but who can be sure if your sensor is unreliable.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Due to not being allowed in the garage over christmas I've had plenty of thinking time and the use of print offs of Simon Hobsons Leonardo instructions.

I remember 7 years ago I came home from sea and found the battery discharged, on recharge the car had a consistant flat spot at 1700revs, using an old desk top computer I found a figure of 1700 revs in the parameters page and removed it and all worked well ( made me feel good!!).

In the parameters page there is again a figure of 2000revs, background in purple and the number ghosted in white. I attempted to remove it by going into ' Type of petrol to alt fuel c/o' and selecting anything but 'Atlernative fuel start' then removing or changing the number, only for 2000 to reappear when changed back to 'Alternative fuel start'.

I read your comments Rossko with interest, yes it seems to stay yellow (lambda sensor) but is moving all the time from one square to another of yellow. I understand the wire colours for testing the lambda sensor and now appreciate the comment on bias voltage of the sensor. I've listed below ALL the settings I could find on the various Leanardo pages:-

Parameters:
Ignition type or No of cylinders ...................................6 cylinders
Type of RPM signal......................................................standard
Type of petrol to alt fuel switch over.............................alternative fuel start
Petrol- alternative fuel switchover RPM.......2000rpm (stays purple background)
Primer duration..........................................................4s
Type of alternative fuel level indicator............................AEB
TPS type...................................................................No TPS
O2 sensor type...........................................................0-1v
O2 sensor reading relay (open loop mode).....................5s
type of O2 simulator....................................................standard square wave
Yellow wire utilization..................................................disconnect injectors

Optional configeration page
Petrol - alternative fuel switchover:

Fuel switchover temp.........................................15
Over rev option........................................not ticked
Auto switch over to petrol on low level........not ticked

Actuator:

Optional default lock................................not ticked
Idle open steps over default......................25
Idle closing steps under default..................25
Out of idle opening steps over default.........40
Out of idle closing steps under default.........40

Full throttle option.................................ticked
Actuator position during full throttle..........120
Full throttle TPS........................................4v

TPS:
Idle TPS hysterisis.......................................0.14

Cut off:
Cut off option ....................................not ticked

The figure 2000revs even though they are ghosted make me wonder if it has something to do with the lambda staying in the green 0v square until exactly above 2000revs. Also if 'Actuator position during full throttle' .....120 suggests the original set up had a default about there???

I take your point that either the leanardo or sensor is goosed. I think I'll try using anything but 'Alt. fuel start and put in 200 revs and see what it does!!!

Brian
PS anyone any thoughts on whether to get good quality NTK/Bocsh or cheap O2 sensor?????


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:18 pm 
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No what ever I do it returns to 2000 revs, also the 4s and the 5s which incidentally go red before changing back to original numbers, is there an admin code for the Leanardo to change these settings???

Brian


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Martec wrote:
Parameters:
Ignition type or No of cylinders ...................................6 cylinders
Type of RPM signal......................................................standard
Type of petrol to alt fuel switch over.............................alternative fuel start
Petrol- alternative fuel switchover RPM.......2000rpm (stays purple background)
Primer duration..........................................................4s
Type of alternative fuel level indicator............................AEB
TPS type...................................................................No TPS
O2 sensor type...........................................................0-1v
O2 sensor reading relay (open loop mode).....................5s
type of O2 simulator....................................................standard square wave
Yellow wire utilization..................................................disconnect injectors
From the top, number of cylinders would be right as is type of rpm signal, then it all starts to go a bit off.

Alternative fuel start means it tries to start on gas. Set it for decelleration and the rpm at 1,200rpm. To change this setting (and most of the others) you have to type in the new value and then hit the Enter (Return) key. If you don't hit Enter after changing a setting it doesn't change but goes back to how it was.

I've never seen an option for primer duration, it's usually fuel overlap and this sets the time between one fuel being switched on and the other being switched off. On a large intake manifold like on a V8 Rangie engine, I've got it set at 1 second to allow time for the gas to get to were it needs to be before the petrol injectors are switched off. However, on your system with carbs you've got to empty the float bowls of petrol first so if anything you want a minus delay but I'm not sure if the software will allow you to set one.

Fuel indicator is whatever you have, and no TPS is correct. O2 sensor type is correct but 5 seconds to allow it to warm up is a bit quick, you may find it works better with 10 seconds.

Type of O2 simulation should be set at open circuit as you aren't feeding a simulated lambda sensor redaing to a petrol ECU (as you don't have one).

Yellow wire utilisation can be set at anything if you aren't using it although you could use it to disconnect the supply to your petrol pump if you wanted.

Martec wrote:
Optional configeration page
Petrol - alternative fuel switchover:

Fuel switchover temp.........................................15
Over rev option........................................not ticked
Auto switch over to petrol on low level........not ticked

Actuator:

Optional default lock................................not ticked
Idle open steps over default......................25
Idle closing steps under default..................25
Out of idle opening steps over default.........40
Out of idle closing steps under default.........40

Full throttle option.................................ticked
Actuator position during full throttle..........120
Full throttle TPS........................................4v

TPS:
Idle TPS hysterisis.......................................0.14

Cut off:
Cut off option ....................................not ticked
As you almost certainly don't have a temperature sensor on your vaporiser, the switchover temperature circuit detects that the wire is open circuit and this setting is ignored.

As previously mentioned, open up the limits on the actuator (remembering to hit Enter after you type the new settings in so they are memorised).

Untick the full throttle option. As you have no TPS this wouldn't do anything anyway but a setting of 120 would suggest it is expecting the default to be around 100 as it would give a richer mixture on wide open throttle.

The cut off option is useful as it allows you to set a low actuator opening on the overrun. However, as you have no TPS it can't be enabled (or can but won't do anything).

Martec wrote:
PS anyone any thoughts on whether to get good quality NTK/Bocsh or cheap O2 sensor?????
I've used both and although the NTK ones will last they are pricey. A cheapo and be prepared to replace it every year or so is the way I've gone.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
From the top, number of cylinders would be right as is type of rpm signal, then it all starts to go a bit off.

Number of cylinders is irrelevant to Leo - except insofar as it uses it derive the RPM figure. Does the laptop display show the correct RPM when running?

Gilbertd wrote:
Set it for decelleration and the rpm at 1,200rpm.

No, this Leo is in service with carbs - we don't want any automated changeover. Set for "alt fuel start" is just what is needed.
When set that way, the rpm figure related to changeover is irrelevant, that's why it is greyed out.

Gilbertd wrote:
I've never seen an option for primer duration,

It only has meaning for "alt fuel start"

Gilbertd wrote:
it's usually fuel overlap

This has no meaning for "alt fuel start"

----

With 'Actuator / Optional default lock' set off, the Leo is in self learning mode. The default step value will slowly move around chasing the lambda sensor readings. If you've got a wonky sensor reading, that is going to give trouble, maybe some days and not others.

Martec wrote:
yes it seems to stay yellow (lambda sensor) but is moving all the time from one square to another of yellow.

What actual voltage readings are you getting from your nominal 0 to 1V sensor under those conditions?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:53 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
I've never seen an option for primer duration

When you use a Leo with carbs, you set the Leo to Alt Fuel Start and use a separate switch to select fuels. Primer Duration does just what it says - it's the period the valves are opened after switching on to prime the intake.

When starting on gas, the best technique is to prime the intake - create a pool of over-rich mixture. During cranking, the combination of mixing this with the clean air in the rest of the intake, and the possibly lean mix from the mixture at cranking speed, will (if you get it right) result in combustible mixture reaching the cylinders fairly quickly.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Thanks you all for your comments,

'Gilbertd' using 'enter' I removed the 2000revs and it immediately started to scan better (lower revs). I didn't change anything else and went on a 40 mile run to deliver my wifes baking.

'Rossko' the laptop rpm matched near enough the cars rev counter, on the motorway a steady state 2400 rpm the lambda moved about in yellow and red now (0.48- 0.59v). giving it the boot and easing off saw it move about over the whole scale. Now it is scanning above 1200 ish revs (stays lambda green below).

As I only have the idle screw one flat open this is probably why it stays in the green (lambda) at low revs???

I climbed a hill in 4th from 30 to 60 without back fire and full throttle,not managed that for many years, started in the green and moved up to amber/red with voltage moving up and down some.

Simon I set the OMVL 90 vaporiser as your instruction sheet suggested so have used the bias adjuster to raise gas flow and brought back idling to lambda green by shutting the idle screw.

I'm sure it is not set ideally but with front spring changes for far more comfort I have not enjoyed this car so much for ages (considered selling it this autumn). I suspect something is going wrong but will us it 'as is' and monitor and service it more often and include a cheap lambda sensor as a service item.

As I learn easier from the written word I'll be writting notes from your comments incase these posts disappear thank you for the vast amount of information you have given me, until the next set of problems.

Brian


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Martec wrote:
on the motorway a steady state 2400 rpm the lambda moved about in yellow and red now (0.48- 0.59v).

This is just wrong. Either it's cold, for whatever reason, or sensor tip is partially broken internally reducing output, or it is so muffled with soot that it's responding so slowly that it's slower than Leo's corrections. Whatever the cause, it is not a reliable reading, snapping cleanly from high to low. You'll never get it set just right with unreliable sensor.

Martec wrote:
As I only have the idle screw one flat open this is probably why it stays in the green (lambda) at low revs???

Could well be that simple an adjustment.

Martec wrote:
Simon I set the OMVL 90 vaporiser as your instruction sheet suggested so have used the bias adjuster to raise gas flow and brought back idling to lambda green by shutting the idle screw.

Why? You don't want it idling green, you want it bouncing red-green-red

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:00 pm 
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rossko wrote:
Martec wrote:
Simon I set the OMVL 90 vaporiser as your instruction sheet suggested so have used the bias adjuster to raise gas flow and brought back idling to lambda green by shutting the idle screw.

Why? You don't want it idling green, you want it bouncing red-green-red

Actually, I find it generally better idling just slightly lean. With a large intake tract, changes can be slow to feed through from stepper changing to lambda probe sensing the change - and this can make the system hunt. The Rover V8 plenum chamber isn't exactly a small volume, and neither was the long intake tract on my previous carb setup.

So I try and get them just a little lean at idle and they run sweetly. Less of an issue if you have a short/low volume intake though.
It's not as if you are trying to keep the cylinders cool, or maximise power, at idle.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:22 am 
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I can understand that Simon, but our man here does not have a V8, he has stubby lil intake ports.

Worse, he has a Leo which at some point at least had self-learning on ("default lock off"). Allowed to idle deliberately lean, the Leo will adjust its default step value so it isn't lean, that's its job. Then when you do apply a load it will be too lean ... you can't hoodwink a feedback system in this way.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:41 am 
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rossko wrote:
Worse, he has a Leo which at some point at least had self-learning on ("default lock off").

That's the default
Quote:
Allowed to idle deliberately lean, the Leo will adjust its default step value so it isn't lean, that's its job. Then when you do apply a load it will be too lean ... you can't hoodwink a feedback system in this way.

Actually it doesn't tune itself at idle.

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