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 Post subject: 1972 tvr v8 conversion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:08 am 
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hello chaps.

Well just to add another project ,when i should be concentrating on the ones i already have ,i am starting to research converting the tvr to lpg.

engine is a 3.5 litre p5b engine ,forged pistons crane cam,springs etc .turbo charged and running at the moment on a old accell dfi injection i fitted in 1991.

i have a cylindrical tank that i think will fit where the fuel tank is ,and will run only on lpg , like my astra . i have an offer of a cheap microsquirt ecu i can use . i could us the accel one but its very very old ...


so far i am looking at 2 sets of these ..


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VALTEK-TYPE-3 ... SwJ7RYT0N7



the same make in the astra seem to just go on and on with no problems .


reducer, i am not sure on , i have a few 2nd hand ones , i need to look at them and see if any are for inj and what their flow/bhp capacity is .


pics of engine and car ..

Image


Image


Image



regards
robert.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:32 am 
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Long time no chat Rob. Nice engine bay pic!

Don't go for those Valtek 30 injectors, a fairly low spec injector that work great on low demand stuff but you might run into problems on the turbo'd V8, particularly if you run group injection rather than sequential, particularly if you run a lot of boost. On a group injection setup there are twice as many opening/closing cycles as on a sequential setup, so group is more demanding in terms of injectors (during every open/close operation, in a way, constitutes 'dead time' for the injectors). They're not the most linear injectors (take a fairly long time to open and close), you wouldn't want to run them below 4ms pulse duration. On turbo setups, particularly with group injection, you can end up with the problem of needing combination of high pressure and big nozzles for correct top end mixture, but then that same combination means that for idle the injectors would need to pulse below the minimum duration at which they will work properly. The less linear the injector and the greater the operational load range of the engine (turbo increases that range), the more likely you are to run into that problem and even if you reach a good compromise (pressure/nozzles) that works for both idle and top end power, fuelling accuracy still suffers as a result of effectively lowering the injection pulse time resolution (resolution in this case points to petrol injectors can work from extremely low pulse times up to the full extent of available 'window', where window is 20ms at 6000rpm with sequential or 3000rpm with group due to rotational speed of engine setting the frequency at which injectors must close to start a new cycle, if LPG injectors have minimum pulse of 4ms the resolution in this example is 20-4ms = 16ms for LPG but 20ms for petrol). There might be a problem with top end power on a turbo setup using these injectors anyway, because they don't flow too well. Some of them internally have only 2.5mm diameter holes, so on those rails there wouldn't be much point in fitting bigger than 2.5mm nozzles. I do fit V30s on some installs but would never fit them on a blown motor, and particularly not if the motor also runs group injection.

Regardless of group/sequential I would advise you to fit MagicJet injectors on this motor, very linear and very high flow. Two types of MJ injector, old type and the newer (and smaller, named 'FX') type, I would go with the old, bigger type. They can come on rails of 4 with 12mm inlet pipe, or singular with 6mm inlet pipe. Gas distribution manifolds that split a 12mm pipe into 4 x 6mm pipes are available.

Edit - re-read your post and noted you have V30s on your turbo Astra with good results, still I would advise the MJs.

Reducer advice will depend on spec of the engine, bhp? These days I fit a lot of Romano HD reducers, a really good unit.

Trust that helps, Regards, Simon.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:33 pm 
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hi Simon , thank you for a great bit of input ..
re bhp , max 500 i think . according the eb those valteks can go 55 bhp/cyl ,so that's 440 bhp . but i don't take these numbers as gospel

it WILL be batch fire ,with 4 inj on each trigger .

on my v30's i am running between 3.5ms and 16ms . that's on around 175 bhp 1.4 litre .

i will go and have a look at the price of magic jets .;)

regards
robert.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:55 pm 
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ok doke , looks like mj have these specs..

MAGIC JET LPG CNG Single Injector with Nozzle
Spare MagicJET Injector for Replacement or as a Single Mounted

General characteristics:
Handled fule: LPG / CNG
Max device pass: 52 ccm (air 1 Bar , puls 24 ms) cca 60 HP/cyl., 1,5 Bar rel.
Product life expectancy: >250 000 000 cycles >200 000 km (2500 RPM, 60km/h)
Maximum operating frequency: 300 Hz
Operating response time: (+12V DC ON) 2,2ms ± 0,2 ms (1Bar rel. air)
Closing response time: 1ms ± 0,2 ms (1Bar rel. air)
Operating temperature range: -20°C ÷ 120°C
Gaseous phase filtration requirements: 80 microns
Lubrication: Not required
Operating pressure range: 0,5 ÷ 4,5 Bar
Pressure response time: P0 -> Pmax < 1,0 ms (1Bar rel air)
Pressure response time: Pmax -> P0 < 1,0 ms (1Bar rel air)

Electrical characteristics:
Electrical control Ref .encl: 1
Speed -Up voltage: 10V DC ÷15 VDC
Speed –Up time: 4 ms
Opening curent: 1,8 A / 3,6V (1Bar rel. air)
Holding current: 1,0 A
Power absorption in holding: 12W (12V)
Resistance: 2 Ohm (20°C)
IP protection ratio: IP65

60 bhp/cly at 1.5 bar ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Injector-MAGI ... Swv0tVbYYn


or on a rail..


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Injectors-rai ... SwpdpVbY0e



cheapest seems to be the singles at 10.71 each , so 90 odd quid .versus 60 for the v30's. but i don't get rail/nozzles with the single mj injectors .investigation continues ...i may have friends with various 2nd hand bits .:).

this looks a bit sexy..


http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/magic-3-250-45 ... m-reducer/


regards
robert.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:35 pm 
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I never read much into on paper specs of LPG components mate, seems some are vastly exaggerated while some are understated. I'd put MJ's in the former category and V30s in the latter! ECU firmware always seems to get the latency incorrect too, even if there is an MJ injector setting in an ECU I generally use the Matrix setting.

Can push MJs to silly figures like 90bhp without ridiculous pressure, I once tried 3(point odd)mm nozzles on them on a supercharged Rangerover, 0.9 bar was a bit too much, wouldn't want to go lower than 0.9bar so fitted smaller nozzles.. I know this equates to only around 50bhp per pot on the SC RR but then the SC RR is driving the SC (which takes a fair bit of power from the crank too), and this was at only 0.9bar...

They make for a very flat map too, linear due to the fast response, good down to around 2.5ms. Unless you fancy splashing out on something like the old Matrix injectors (expense!) you'd struggle to find a more linear or better flowing injector, and you'd struggle to find singular Matrix injectors... Regardless of other injectors being more hyped or having better on paper specs, these perform better in the real world.

No problem with MJ FX version on this http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14115. MJ's are small but MJ FX even smaller, I needed very small on this motor!

TBH you're probably close to pushing the minimum duration of V30s on your other motor, also got to factor in that when gas is cold that pulse time will be lower and reducer pressure can be higher, also on over-run or fast idle that 3.5ms will be a bit lower anyway. Would really start to notice dosage inaccuracy with them at 3ms... but MJs will work just fine at 3ms.

Regards, Simon.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:14 pm 
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looks like for an additional 25 quid the mj are worth it then simon ....muchas gracias !


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:15 pm 
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robertXX wrote:
looks like for an additional 25 quid the mj are worth it then simon ....muchas gracias !


Definitely for this install Rob. Good price on the MJ's.

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:32 pm 
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my current stock of vaps..


Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:03 am 
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No combination of those reducers will run to 500bhp, looking at buying at least one other reducer.

One tank will struggle to flow enough gas for 500bhp anyway, even with 8mm or 4 hole outlet (especially this weather when tank pressure is comparatively low) for true 500bhp capability you might need 2 tanks.

The AMR reducer is good for 500bhp but costs more than 2 x good quality 350bhp good quality reducers.

It is normally good to fit a pressure stable reducer but this can be a bit of a negative if you decide to run 2 reducers in parallel, because one reducer does all the work until it's flow limit is reached then it's pressure falls off drastically and the other reducer (with slightly lower pressure setting) starts flowing gas, in this kind of situation you often don't realise the full combined flow rate of both reducers so it can be better to fit slightly less pressure stable reducers in a 2 x reducer setup.

On the Merc (in the above link) I fitted 2 x Romano HD reducers (higher flow capability than your Romano reducer) which are very pressure stable, but these each fuel only 1 bank of the V12 engine with no pressure balance between the 2 banks, each bank has it's own LPG ECU and pressure sensor, and gas for each bank comes from separate tanks, so in effect it has 2 x complete LPG systems each fuelling a straight six (guaranteeing each reducer does equal work flowing equal gas and tank contents are used at equal rate). You could do similar on the V8 using 2 x 4 cylinder LPG systems (point of 2 ECU's is to get 2 pressure sensors) though with only one tank the tank outlet flow might be the limiting factor. If you fit only one tank it might make more sense just to fit 1 x 8 cylinder LPG ECU and one new reducer (perhaps in parallel with your current top pictured reducer for 2 x reducers) and dial in a bit of petrol addition at the top end if necessary.

Simon

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:40 am 
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simon , to quote ..


''negative if you decide to run 2 reducers in parallel,''


"it can be better to fit slightly less pressure stable reducers in a 2 x reducer setup."


"I fitted 2 x Romano HD reducers"


"and one new reducer (perhaps in parallel with your current top pictured reducer for 2 x reducers)"


um , is it me , or that one 'nay' for parallel reducers ,and three 'yays' for parallel reducers ?


i have a state of parallel confusion lol.

i guess another romano like above with my present one would be best ,and run them both side by side .


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:48 pm 
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:lol: It's you mate... ;-)

But I might not have been clear enough, I'll try to explain again in a different way..

Where I fitted two very pressure stable reducers (on the Merc), since the engine is a V12 there are two complete LPG systems on it, each fuelling one bank of engine cylinders. There is no pressure balancing between the two banks of cylinders, each has it's own gas tank, reducer, pressure sensor and ECU so they are totally independent separate setups.

If I had fitted a balance pipe between the two LPG systems, since the reducers are so pressure stable and since it would be (as always) difficult to set exactly the same pressure on both reducers, one reducer would be flowing all of the gas most of the time, so then one tank would also empty before the other tank.

Incidentally, the tanks are both the same capacity and the LPG systems are both controlled by the same fuel changeover (ECUs networked together in a master/slave setup, the master dictates when it changes to LPG but either ECU can force switch back to petrol due to low pressure), so tanks run out of gas at the same time, so no dead weight is carried in terms of fuel that could never be used (as would happen if one tank held more gas than the other).

Simon

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:16 pm 
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so if i run my two romano's side by side in parallel,and connect both the gas feed pipes and the vacuum signals , then if one reducer is running more flow than the other , when it gets to the point of running out of flow and the pressure drops a little the other reducer would start to flow more and keep the pressure up ?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Emphasis on that part of your point 'gets to the point of running out of flow and pressure drops a little'...

The ideal reducer is extremely pressure stable, so it holds same pressure at it's maximum flow as it does at idle. This is almost an ideal situation, because if gas injector duration is almost the same (maybe just a tad longer) than petrol injector injection duration at full load (so we don't run out of injection 'window'), gas injector duration at idle won't have to be less than petrol injector duration (I can do more on this if necessary). So, if a reducer is rated at 350bhp and we fit it on an engine that uses 349bhp worth of gas, then ideally at 349bhp we don't want the reducer pressure output to drop one bit from what it was at idle.. In fact, it would be even better if reducers had a slightly rising rate of pressure (in reference to manifold pressure), but to build such a reducer probably requires the reducer to have a wider diameter vacuum side on a diaphragm than on pressure side of same diaphragm (the offset, positive pressure, is controlled by the spring which acts to oppose the vacuum side). However, both the classically envisioned ideal reducer and the (perhaps) 'further improved' ideal reducer both suffer from the same drawback - sudden drop off of pressure when the flow limit is reached.

Suppose we have two reducers in tandem, one set at 1.3 bar and one set at 1.29 bar. If the reducers are perfectly pressure stable, then the reducer set at 1.3 bar will do all the work until it's flow limit is reached. Now, again because it is so pressure stable up to it's flow limit, it's pressure will drop off very suddenly - perhaps too suddenly for the other reducer, that until now was flowing no gas at all, to suddenly take up the slack in pressure.

If, on the other hand, the reducer(s) were not quite so pressure stable, if for instance at 80% of the flow capability the pressure dropped by say 30% and at 50% of flow capability the pressure drop was about 25%, then this implies a kind of self balancing that sees both reducers working all the time in conjunction (perhaps not flowing equally but nevertheless both flowing similarly), and this also implies that one reducer will not suddenly reach the limit of it's flow.

The point in pain above is 'suddenly take up the slack', where a resonance can inadvertently occur where one reducer, and then the other does by far the bulk of the flow (repeat ad-infinum). Increasingly as this is the case, you will achieve a lower proportion of the combined flow ability of both reducers, which is why I reckon that less pressure stable reducers are better suited for tandem reducer setups.

Indeed I have fitted two fairly pressure stable reducers on such as supercharged rangerovers in the past with good results (where one reducer wouldn't have been capable), but in this case the 2 reducers I'd realistically rate each capable of 280bhp flow (manufacturer reckons they're good for 350bhp) and the engine is only about 400bhp. If the engine was 560bhp, I know the combination would not have held up even if each reducer was fed from 2 separate tanks.

Simon

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:09 am 
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hmmm , sounds like a reducer for each bank , not interconnected at all ,trouble is the wide band o2 sensor will be post turbo so collecting data or all 8 cyl , and not picking up on a lean bank.

Simon , on some of my turbo designs , i run the fuel pressure regulator signal from a dynamic take off , eg a hard line pointing at the flow in a pipe on or one design in the intercooler inlet ,this creates a higher pressure the faster the air flow/rpm , and so creates a rising rate of its own .

regards
robert.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Rob, thing is if you run a reducer for each bank, due to there only being one gas pressure sensor (one LPG ECU, one sensor), if each reducer outputs a slightly different pressure (which they will), one bank ends up with more fuelling than the other (the one with the pressure sensor attached should be the one that keeps correct mixture) - something you might just about get away with for closed loop operation(?) with very closely matched pressure but will lead to inconsistent mixture between banks at the top end, could get mixture right one day only for the next day the unmonitored reducer's pressure to have drifted.

If you fit a combination of 2 reducers that far exceed 500bhp capability (say 2 x 350bhp), in parallel, then there won't be a problem, especially not if they're not the most pressure stable. If you fit one reducer that is good for 500bhp flow then there won't be a problem, but if you fit 2 reducers each rated at 250bhp you might struggle to get them to conjunctively flow enough for 500bhp, especially if they're very pressure stable. Although since you already have one reducer I suppose (like you've said) you might as well try fitting it in conjunction with one new one before buying 2 new ones :lol:

Tomorrow I have a modified Mustang coming in (just had different cam fitted which has changed firing order, owner's had the car a few years but recently decided he wanted it to sound like a 60's hotrod), shaker hood and a few more goodies were already fitted. I've done a lot of work for this owner on various vehicles and previously sorted this Mustang's LPG system (before the recent mods) and removed engine bay LPG bits before the car went to a mustang specialists for the cam change... When I first saw this car I told the owner that really it should have a petrol fuel return and a lube system fitted as part of the LPG install but these weren't fitted and due to lack of fuel return the petrol ECU sees petrol pressure rise, so decreases petrol injector pulse duration to compensate for the high petrol pressure reading, turns on the MIL, goes open loop and since the LPG system works as a slave to the petrol system makes the LPG system open loop and difficult to calibrate or get consistent fuelling from. Options on ways forward were to ideally fit a lube system and a fuel return, or I could get decent results by setting the LPG system to pulse petrol injectors for 1ms (petrol addition) whenever the engine was running on LPG, which would also negate the need for a lube. He chose the latter option, so there is still no lube or fuel return fitted and the LPG system is set to provide a constant petrol addition of 1ms. Due to the petrol addition I had to fit smaller nozzles in the LPG injectors to prevent LPG injectors pulsing below minimum rated pulse duration (or they wouldn't meter LPG properly at idle, over-run and low engine loads, since 1ms of petrol pulse time equates to about 40% of fuelling under these conditions, so would otherwise decrease LPG injector pulse duration by 40% if LPG injectors were totally linear, which would push them well below duration at which they could work properly). Since then the reducer has developed a slightly leaky diaphragm so is leaking LPG through it's vacuum connection to the manifold, and the car is up around 75bhp on previous power levels due to the cam and other mods, pushing power to around 400bhp. Usually with such an old LPG system, when the reducer goes wrong I might offer the choice of reducer repair or a new reducer but this reducer is an old spec OMVL Dream reducer and while old spec Dream reducers are probably good for 400bhp, new spec Dream reducers will flow nothing like as well as the old reducer, so in this case to avoid having to change lots of piping to fit a different spec reducer altogether (not a new Dream reducer) I advised repairing the old reducer. Hopefully the old Dream reducer will flow enough gas for the engine with it's new cam by itself, but if it doesn't there is no guarantee that most other reasonably priced reducers would manage that sort of power level either, so in that case I would fit a second reducer in parallel with the Dream reducer and set the Dream reducer at a higher pressure than the second reducer... because Dream reducers are not very pressure stable the Dream will do most of the work until the driver really gives it some and even then the second reducer won't see a very sudden need to provide a massive flow of gas, second reducer might just see a fairly quick need to flow maybe 50bhp worth of gas. The thing is, due to having already employed the LPG ECUs petrol addition capability in order to provide the 1ms pulse to prevent petrol pressure rising to a peak and holding, which as said above would totally mess up fuelling on LPG, I cannot use that facility to add petrol addition to make up for any shortfall in flow of the LPG reducer(s), so it is either fit a fuel return and a lube system, which he prefers not to do, or fit reducer(s) that will flow enough gas for the engine.
First time I saw and sorted this car it was silver, now it's yellow. A mustang specialist who races mustangs did the cam change etc (same specialist apparently also has a few Nascars, one is an 'days of thunder' model, another newer model currently doesn't have an engine and he is looking to pay £40K for an engine)... My customer is having a roll cage fitted next (not by me), back seat removed, another LPG tank to be fitted in it's place (by me), after I've sorted the LPG fuelling. Other work I've done for him is converting his little fleet of SRT8 6.1 hemi engine'd vehicles, and having me sort his brother's car LPG system out was his Xmas present to his brother the other year.

Good idea with the dynamic take off, how effective are they (terms of increased manifold relative fuel pressure at high air flow)? I suppose one thing we could draw from that is confirmation that the old LPG installer advice to fit outlet nozzles in manifolds at similar angles to each other is correct.

Cheers,
Simon

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:34 am 
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good input thanks simon , i will assess the red i have now to see what its flow is .

re..

"Good idea with the dynamic take off, how effective are they (terms of increased manifold relative fuel pressure at high air flow)? I suppose one thing we could draw from that is confirmation that the old LPG installer advice to fit outlet nozzles in manifolds at similar angles to each other is correct."


my best example if this is on my bike ,500 honda twin engine ,turbo intercooled in a cagiva mito 125cc frame .

on the dyno i had the pressure signal for the fuel pressure regulator and the float bowls taken from the plenum feeding the carbs .

it would run up to 4500 rpm then go lean enough to act as a rev limiter . i went up to a 186 main jet ,and 6 psi fuel pressure ,all to no great effect bhp around 35 i think it was .

after a bit of a think , i removed the signal from the plenum , and connected it to a fitting mounted in the intercooler facing the incoming flow ..

next run the engine choked it was so rich .

with a bit of tuning i ended up with a 132 main jet ,fueling was good ,and now the engine made 135 bhp on 15 psi boost at 9500 rpm. the jetting was near as damn it the same as the stock engine with the needles up 2 notches .


regards
robert.


Last edited by robertXX on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:34 pm 
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my romano..


http://alreginta.lt/index.php?&langid=2 ... =0&id=1421

hmm 200 bhp .


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:06 pm 
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You're welcome Rob ,yes your Romano reducer is the little type.

Simon

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:43 pm 
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I have some matrix injectors here that would get the job done for you. They are the older type that flow better

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:04 pm 
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classicswede wrote:
I have some matrix injectors here that would get the job done for you. They are the older type that flow better

I forgot to phone you back about that Dai sorry mate...

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