Thanks Gilbert. Did the diff break or just get noisy?

Problem for me is that petrol Grand Voyagers (converted to LPG of course!) are ideal for my purposes except for the weak gearbox they all use. The diesel autos use the same box but you can't fit a manual diesel box to the petrol engine (not that I'd ideally want a manual GV anyway). I go OTT on looking after the gearboxes and drive with mechanical sympathy but still they go wrong.

_________________
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Diff got noisy so the owner took it back to the dealer to complain. They asked if he'd been towing with it and when he said he had, that was when they said that although they look like they should be good for towing, they weren't really up to it. So he bought a TD5 Disco instead.......

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Aye, the 42RE in the 1st gen Grand Cherokees isn't that highly regarded amongst off-roaders. Seems fine under normal use though, including towing - but that Output Speed Sensor always goes at about 150k miles. Not a problem really, it's a £30 part and a 5 minute job to replace it.
The back axle is a Dana 35, I've never had problems with them - they are in loads of pickup trucks, etc. I used to race VW Golf GTis, and towed them on a flatbed trailer all over the place, with no issues.
Again, the off-roaders don't like them - but what do you expect if you put on 33" tyres and go and drive up a canyon!

It's the front wheel drive Mopar boxes 41TE aka A604 (in Chrysler Grand Voyagers, Dodge Caravans, Neons, etc) that are notably problematic, particularly when in the bigger engine'd heavier vehicle models...

The old shape (to 2000) Jeep Grand Cherokee back axle is known for going noisy and locking diffs but I thought they'd sorted the problem on post 2000 models. I've had 2 pre 2000 Grand Cherokees (still have 1), both with the problem and have seen the same problem all over the net, can buy diff repair kits but they're fairly expensive. Don't know if the Cherokees fair the same. I didn't actually mind the locked back diffs too much, scrubs tyres but where I needed to use the Jeep it was usually for purpose that made good use of the 4x4 or pulling power of the vehicle - on the tricky stuff a locked diff can be better than an open diff or LSD (especially if the LSD no longer works properly). I bet there's been a few old Jeeps sold with sawdust in the diffs

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

One of mine actually had a "Lunchbox locker" installed in the rear diff when I bought it - makes a bloody loud clicking noise when you go round tight corners, but otherwise is great in mud etc. I have 2 others that just have LSDs in the back from the factory - probably the most useless LSDs ever installed, they last about 50k and then wear out and turn into an open diff!

I did laugh at this, though, knowing that Chrysler insist that you use ATF +4 in their gearboxes - a factory TSB.

"SUBJECT:
Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type M59602)

MODELS:

1989 - 1995 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron Sedan

1989 - 2003 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon

1989 - 1993 (AC) Dynasty/New Yorker/New Yorker Salon

1989 - 1993 (AD) Ram Truck

1989 - 1994 (AG) Daytona

1989 (AH) Lancer/Lebaron GTS

1989 - 1995 (AJ) Lebaron Coupe/Lebaron Convertible

1989 - 1990 (AK) Aries/Reliant

1989 - 1990 (AL) Horizon/Omni

1989 (AM) Diplomat/Gran Fury/New Yorker fifth Avenue

1989 - 2004 (AN) Dakota

1989 - 1994 (AP) Shadow/Sundance

1990 - 1991 (AQ) Maserati

1990 - 1993 (AY) Imperial/New Yorker Fifth Avenue

1994 - 2003 (BR/BE) Ram Truck

2004 - **2008** (CS) Pacifica

1998-2003 (DN) Durango

2002 - **2008** (DR/DH/D1) Ram Truck

2007 - **2008** (DC) Ram 3500 Cab Chassis

1995 - 2000 (FJ) Sebring/Avenger/Talon

1996 - 2000 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (International Market)

2004 - **2008** (HB) Durango

**2008 (HG) Aspen**

1995 - 2000 (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze

2007 - **2008** (JK) Wrangler

2001 - 2006 (JR) Sebring Sedan & Convertible/Stratus Sedan

2007 - **2008** (JS) Avenger/Sebring/Sebring Convertible

1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible

**2007 - 2008 (KA) Nitro**

2002 - 2007 (KJ) Liberty

**2008 (KK) Liberty**

**2008 (L2) 300C (China)**

1993 - 2004 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/Vision/LHS/New Yorker
/300M

2005 - **2008** (LX/LE) 300/Magnum/Charger

1996 - 2000 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager

1995 - 2005 (PL) Neon

2002 - 2003 (PG) PT Cruiser (International Markets)

2001 - **2008** (PT) PT Cruiser

1997 - 2002 (PR) Prowler

2001 - 2007 (RG) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets)

2001 - 2007 (RS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager

**2008 (RT) Town & Country/Grand Caravan/Grand Voyager
(U.S. & International Markets)**

1997-2006 (TJ) Wrangler

2001 - 2004 (WG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)
Vehicles equipped with Gas engines

1999 - 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee

2005 - **2008** (WK/WH) Grand Cherokee

2006 - **2008** (XK/XH) Commander

1989 - 1995 (YJ) Wrangler

**1989 - 2001 (XJ) Cherokee**

**1989 - 1993 (MJ) Comanche**

1996 - 1998 (ZG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets)

1994 - 1998 (ZJ) Grand Cherokee/Grand Wagoneer
NOTE :**AWA (Asian Warner) transmission are now included in this Service Bulletin. ATF+4(R) is recommended for AW-4 (Asian Warner) transmissions**

NOTE :This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions, MK/PM vehicles equipped with Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) and WG vehicles equipped with a diesel engine (sales code ENF) and a W5J400 or NAG1 transmission (sales code DGJ).

DISCUSSION:

ATF+4(R) - (Type 9602) is being used as factory fill for Chrysler Group automatic transmissions. ATF+4(R) is recommended for all vehicles equipped with Chrysler Group automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED IN THE NOTE ABOVE.

NOTE :ATF+4(R) must always be used in vehicles that were originally filled with ATF+4(R). DO NOT USE ANY OTHER FLUID.

NOTE :ATF+4(R) is backward compatible with ATF+3, ATF+2, and ATF+. Additionally, ATF+4(R) can be used to top off vehicles that used ATF+3, ATF+2, or ATF+.

NOTE :If ATF+4® is used to service models originally filled with ATF+3, ATF+2, and ATF+ the fluid maintenance schedules listed for that model does not change. The service interval currently in effect for a given model should continue to be followed. Refer to the Service or Owners manual for maintenance schedule directions.

In general terms, If ATF+, ATF+2 or ATF+3 was the recommended fluid, it is now recommended to use ATF+4®

BENEFITS

^ Better anti-wear properties

^ Improved rust/corrosion prevention

^ Controls oxidation

^ Eliminates deposits

^ Controls friction

^ Retains anti-foaming properties

^ Superior properties for low temperature operation


FLUID COLOR

Mopar ATF+4(R) has exceptional durability. However, the red dye used in ATF+4(R) is not permanent; as the fluid ages it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4(R) also has a unique odor that may change with age. With ATF+4(R) fluid, color and odor are no longer indicators of fluid condition and do not necessarily support a fluid change.

So dark or burnt smelling fluid doesn't necessarily mean it needs a change, unlike every other ATF out there. Just change it every 50,000 miles, even if you live in Arizona, have no Transmission Fluid cooler, and tow enormous amounts for long distances.

They may as well say "Just trust in God!"

Hehe yeah, I think dark and burned smelling fluid should probably be changed... always a long shot if any symptoms are already apparent though.
When attempting to fix boxes I've replaced fluid with Dexron6, which is supposedly of a higher spec than +4 anyway just a bit more grabby, then if all seems well I've swapped +4 back in.
Even the diffs on GC's use special stuff... But don't the 6 and 8 cylinder GC's use different boxes?

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Yep, they use the stronger 44RE (for the 5.2 V8) and 46RE (5.9 V8) - but we didn't get them over here in the 1st gen (93-98) Grands, more's the shame.
I just think it's a joke that they specify you MUST use a fluid that gives you no idea if it is actually old and burnt, or just looks and smells old and burnt, especially considering the price of +4 and the amount you need - not the sort of thing you do just "on a whim". All mine came with the "towing package" which includes an external cooler, but I'd still like there to be some way to check the fluid condition rather than "Guess"!
AND no bloody drain plug, so you have to drop the pan and end up covered in slimy oil that smells like cat piss and BO...

Daft for a few reasons... Weak box design, designing a box that needs to use the special dear stuff, especially when they believe the dear stuff prevents a simple check of it's condition. Reckon can tell if +4 is burned though.. and if it contains bits of gearbox!

I didn't know about the service bulletin but have heard of writing on dipsticks reading ATF3 when actually ATF+4 is needed and of some main dealers and box specialists being unaware of the +4 requirement.

Possible to drain some fluid by removing a cooler pipe from the box and running the engine, return pipe best as it can be routed into a catch tank (best not to allow it to run dry though). No fluid change will change all the fluid (convertor etc) but removing as much as poss through the cooler then adding more fluid and draining again will change maybe 80% of it (more if repeated a few times), even better if after the first drain the sump is removed and valve body lowered.

The first GV I bought came with an aftermarket cooler fitted, I bought it knowing the gearbox often stuck in limp home 2nd gear only mode but promptly sorted it by fitting another solenoid pack and swapping the fluid. Since then I've kept the cooler and fitted it on every GV I've ran since. When towing I leave the selector in 3 rather than D, convertor will lock up in 3 (would slip in D) so less heat generated and less torque needed (weak 4th gear). But I won't be towing with this one until the gearbox is right, probably involve a rebuild but first I'll have the valve body off and see if there's anything amiss I can put right before having the box off, fingers crossed! With a dealer level Chrysler scanner you can read the fill volume data the gearbox ECU learned to make for smooth shifts etc, reading between the lines this can make it possible to interpret failing seals / clutches etc. But I haven't got one so could only really check pump pressure and assume multiple solenoid packs wouldn't all fail in the same way on the same solenoid.

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Back to the original topic - I just discovered today that the BP at Linford Wood that had removed their price and pump hoses some months back is now back online again, with the Malthurst accumulator scheme signage, so looks like its changed ownership. So at 53.9 that makes it the same as the cheaper of the two shell stations before the accumulator discount. So I'm back to 3 local stations again now. Hopefully some of the other stations where the pump is still present the same may be the case.

Brian,

Local to us, the broughton shell had it for 48.9 for a while which I was very happy for and then all of the sudden they upped to 56.9 over 1 change

J

It went upto 53.9 for a week at Broughton or so then upto 56.9 around the same time I discovered the BP at Linford wood (the one on v7 Saxon St) was back on - They are currently 55.9 so it starts cheaper, if you use their discount card it will give you 1p off each litre next time, stacking upto 10p off after 10 fills, then you start again.

Either way its going to work out cheaper, I'd expect it will go up overall - But my first fill was 69.9 so its still better than that either way!

It would seem BP have sold a lot of the former BP connect franchised stations to Malthurst, so if theres one that did autogas that didn't have an M&S shop theres a reasonable chance it will be back again if its not already.

The Flogas headquarters just up the road from me have jumped from 59.9 to 63.9p overnight. Have updated FillLPG to suit.

Jeez, my local Flogas is still at 47p!

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Last time I was in Coventry they were 39.9. The cheapest local station here is 58.9 at the minute. No depots round here sadly.

Yep, we get ripped off for gas over here, even though it's their N. Ireland depot!

I think you will find the overall demand for LPG there is higher when you factor in the heating usage. The impression I got over there is once your outside Belfast most places don't have mains Gas, or certainly by the amount of garages selling heating oil and red diesel on the pumps thats the impression i got. You also don't get the lower cost options of the man and tank for the most part there, where our cheapest prices are generally found. Or at least if you do they are well hidden.

At least its easier to find your side of the border than the other side though. I've never seen it in a filling station there, only the ones you have to lookup buried on an industrial estate for the most part.

The red diesel goes into the taxis
Heating oil on the forecourt is because a lot of people are too skint to order £600 worth of oil at once, so they fill a can once a week and chuck it in the tank!
The LPG demand is probably higher, but not by a huge amount as most people have a heating oil tank behind the garage, and just ring for a fill when they need oil (or a top-up when it's cheap!) - no real need for LPG, except from years ago when it was cheaper than oil... then a lot of people had LPG tanks installed and are just waiting for the boiler to die so they can switch!

That does make sense, though when your looking for red diesel on the pumps here its hard to find by comparison (I know of 2 places within a 30 mile radius here that do it, only need it for my mates digger anyway, but its not commonly seen) I did remember seeing a highly dodgy looking setup offering "white" diesel opposite one of the Emo garages when over there (one of the two doing lpg, think it may have been shore road though might have been the other one) - The setup in question was a man and pump on some wasteground, with hand painted sign on a bit of scrap plywood. I'd be surprised if its not somewhere regularly visited to check whats being sold though.

Well, I appear to have defied the Chrysler gods... dipped my ATF last night and it is as black as your boot, and stinks like a funeral pyre! Time for a change I think... I also "serviced" the old girl - added half a litre of engine oil, that should do for another 10,000 miles...