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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:27 pm 
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i wish to fit LPG to my range rover. have it on my other car and am very happy with it.

i have 2 options. get the local installer to conver it for £1700 or do it myself.

the local installer would use a OMVL EOBD 5th generation sequential system with a 95 ltr tank.

is this a good recomended lpg system and will it work well on my jaguar v8?

im not sure if installer price includes oil lube kit for exhaust valves, but i must fit the valve lube to the jag motor.


question time:

1) where is the best part source for LPG kits.? i used one known company for electrical part but had to return it (polish electronics)
2) if i install the system myself is there someone on here local to bristol who could set up they system for me? (fine tune it (fuel trims/map)

i would rather fund forum members for there help over taking it to garage
and i like to know whats on my car so i can work on it myself. (im a mechanic)

cheers

spencer.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:50 am 
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Location: West Sussex
Hi Spencer.

I'm not an expert but I beleive a lot of the cost of installing the system is labour so there should be quite a saving.

I know Tiney Tech is popular with the DIY market.

When you say local how far are you considering.

James


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:13 am 
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as you say tinley tech do a kit. so may give that a go. seems good value. i like the way it can connect via OBD so fuel trims remain correct.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
I sell DIY kits.

I do make a modest profit on the parts so kits from me will cost a little more than a trade supplier's price. But kits from me include very concise tech support anytime (in and out of working hours). Should there be a problem with your install that you can't sort out (even with the tech support), I sort it out for free if you visit (which would have the added benefit of giving opportunity for me to personally check your work and calibrate it for free too).

Where people save a few quid by buying direct from a trade supplier, I now leave tech support to the trade supplier and others on the forum.. I wouldn't sell much if I worked for nothing! Not all advice on the forum is equal.

Connecting to OBD on the Jag engine'd models isn't a bad idea but the OBD connection is in no way a substitute for accurate mapping.

Forget 'X'th generation', all fairly meaningless sales talk.. it depends what you count as 'generations'.. The OMVL system is no more advanced than many other sequential system, some might consider it a 3rd generation system, others might consider it a 6th generation system. The OMVL system is capable of good results on this engine though personally I wouldn't fit the OMVL reducer on your vehicle, and would be a bit dubious about an installer who talks sales speal... to a mechanic too..

Simon

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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:58 am 
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lamb190 wrote:
i wish to fit LPG to my range rover. have it on my other car and am very happy with it.

i have 2 options. get the local installer to conver it for £1700 or do it myself.

the local installer would use a OMVL EOBD 5th generation sequential system with a 95 ltr tank.

is this a good recomended lpg system and will it work well on my jaguar v8?

im not sure if installer price includes oil lube kit for exhaust valves, but i must fit the valve lube to the jag motor.


question time:

1) where is the best part source for LPG kits.? i used one known company for electrical part but had to return it (polish electronics)
2) if i install the system myself is there someone on here local to bristol who could set up they system for me? (fine tune it (fuel trims/map)

i would rather fund forum members for there help over taking it to garage
and i like to know whats on my car so i can work on it myself. (im a mechanic)

cheers

spencer.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:31 am
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lamb190 wrote:
i wish to fit LPG to my range rover. have it on my other car and am very happy with it.

i have 2 options. get the local installer to conver it for £1700 or do it myself.

the local installer would use a OMVL EOBD 5th generation sequential system with a 95 ltr tank.

is this a good recomended lpg system and will it work well on my jaguar v8?

im not sure if installer price includes oil lube kit for exhaust valves, but i must fit the valve lube to the jag motor.


question time:

1) where is the best part source for LPG kits.? i used one known company for electrical part but had to return it (polish electronics)
2) if i install the system myself is there someone on here local to bristol who could set up they system for me? (fine tune it (fuel trims/map)

i would rather fund forum members for there help over taking it to garage
and i like to know whats on my car so i can work on it myself. (im a mechanic)

cheers

spencer.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:38 am 
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Not sure what you are trying to add. You've hit the Reply with Quote button but then only posted the quote rather than typing whatever it is you wanted to say after the end of the quote (the quote ends with the [/QUOTE] command, anything typed after that will be added underneath).

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'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:54 pm 
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Probably trying to get enough replies in to post his advertising in the find a pro section.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:44 am 
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making slow progress on converting to LPG. but was happy to find out tinley tech sell complete kits.

the local bristol lpg company also sell and fit for reasonable prices.

so which LPG ecu is better? OMVL 5th gen or AEB (believe you can use OBD2 to run fuel trims to be correct all the time.)

tinley tech sells the AEB kit (ecu)

ive heard the OMVL can be a complicated etc/software.

personally i would like a fairly simple set up. and somthing i can play with easily.

does anybody have any views on preferable ECU makes?

thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:52 am 
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OMVL is AEB, just with a different label and firmware. OMVL don't make controllers, they buy them in from AEB (as do Zavoli, Emer, Romano, King and a few others) so an OMVL badged ECU and an AEB badged ECU will both be an AEB 2568 unit.

5th Gen is an interesting way of describing it. You've got single point open loop, so that would have been 1st Gen, then along comes single point, lambda controlled, closed loop, followed by the early injection systems. Now as the AEB controllers are type C, D, E, etc, it doesn't take long to get up to 5. All 5th generation means is that it is the current model. Marketing bull.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:37 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
OMVL is AEB, just with a different label and firmware. OMVL don't make controllers, they buy them in from AEB (as do Zavoli, Emer, Romano, King and a few others) so an OMVL badged ECU and an AEB badged ECU will both be an AEB 2568 unit.

5th Gen is an interesting way of describing it. You've got single point open loop, so that would have been 1st Gen, then along comes single point, lambda controlled, closed loop, followed by the early injection systems. Now as the AEB controllers are type C, D, E, etc, it doesn't take long to get up to 5. All 5th generation means is that it is the current model. Marketing bull.


yes i see what you mean. i said "5th gen" as thats how the bristol company describe it.

so does this system run from or via OBD2 so fuel trims stay correct? if so how does it do this, does it litraly plug into the OBD socket? or is it just because it piggy backs the cars ECU?

thanks.

Spence :)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:22 pm 
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All systems piggy back onto the petrol ECU, take the petrol injector pulse duration from the petrol ECU and add a preset fiddle factor to that duration to allow the correct amount of gas in. It is this preset map that needs to be programmed when you first install the system. If it is slightly out it doesn't matter because the petrol system will fine tune the pulse duration (using the output from the lambda sensor as it's reference). This fine tuning is called the short term fuel trim. The systems that connect to the OBD port, with a single wire onto the back of the socket, look at the short term fuel trims and adjust using that. So if at any given revs and load the preset map in the LPG controller is slightly out and the short term trim has to adjust the mixture slightly, it sees this adjustment and alters the map so no adjustment to the fuel trim is needed.

At least that is the theory although it has been found to not always work as well as it could depending on the car it is fitted to or how good the algorithm in the controller is.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:31 pm 
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how do you program the map when you first install the system. on my landirenzo ecu im sure it gave me manufacture makes and models to choose from... was this a base map program?

just wondering that if this was the case, and the lamda (open loop) circuit set up was used.. then i could be good to go, using the OBD2 wire/signal to take care of short term fuel trims.

very interested in learning LPG systems, but have zero knowledge on the set up, only on minor adjustments with laptop/software. so thanks for your input.

Spencer


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:05 pm 
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My experience with multipoint systems is very limited so can't give you too much info. I can't see how giving it the details of the car is going to help as the map is going to vary far more on the gas pressure and nozzle size you have selected than on what car it has been fitted to. Some, maybe all, systems have an autocal where they will set themselves up and get the map something like close but then it needs a bit of fine tuning to get it right (unless you are a done in a day installer in which case you just leave it as it is as it's close enough ish....). Unless it was a very new Landirenzo system, it wouldn't have had an OBD connection and the lambdas don't have to be connected to the LPG ECU. The only way I can think the autocal works is by adjusting the map up and down and going for highest revs. Bit like old school tuning an open loop system.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Agreed with Gilbert.

Can add that an OBD connection is by no means a substitute for accurate mapping (like Gilbert described). Accurate mapping is very important, OBD connection is not.

When we calibrate an LPG system we set up a 'slave map, which the LPG system uses to interpret the (would be) petrol injector pulses to arrive at a pulse length for the LPG injectors. Get this 100% correct and fuel trims on both petrol and LPG will be identical (one school of though), or zero (another school of thought), or somewhere between the petrol trim figure and zero (another school if thought). Depending on vehicle spec and what I note when setting fuel systems up, I usually (not always) opt for the latter as best compromise. Every aspect is a compromise.

Get the above slightly wrong and fuel trims may be different on different fuels. Fuel trims are the way in which the petrol ECU learns to give precisely the correct amount of fuel to your specific engine, particularly when you first move the throttle or engine revs change while driving. Aiming for an 'ideal fuel trim of zero (as most, including AEB wit OBD connection, usually do, can cause fueling issues on some installs).

If you get the LPG map wrong, then fuel trims will need to be re-learned every time you switch fuels. If fuel trims are too far out when you switch fuels, then the engine warning light will come on with all associated consequences (no need to go into those here).

An OBD connection allows the LPg system to read fuel trims and if found incorrect to gradually steer LPG fueling to bring fuel trims to correct (in terms of AEB this means to zero, some systems allow the programmer to enter a preset here). The operative (and problematic) word here is 'gradually'. The LPG system adjusting fueling of it's own accord has to be gradual, else the closed loop functionality of the petrol system would not be reflected - and this would bring many problems of it's own. But the slow nature of the LPG system fuel trim steering facility also means the system still has to be mapped at least, maybe, 70% properly, rising to maybe 90% at full loads. With a correct LPG map, the fueling will be almost exactly correct immediately when you change throttle position and/or rpm changes. The engine has many fuel trims (each covering a certain load range within a certain rpm range) but the LPG system does not know what these ranges are... This is why the LPG system cannot have it's own identical fuel trim system, and this is the reason for issues behind installs that rely too much on OBD connection. The LPG system effectively only has one fuel trim, the petrol system has very many.

The consequences for having an incorrect map with and trying to compensate by use of an OBD connection is.. Well, say you have fuel trims initially of -5% at idle, the LPG system will then grqadually subtract 5% from the fueling to bring fuel trims to zero, so now the LPG system fueling adaption is at -5%... Then you move your foot on the throttle (say to set off driving in drive gear), and now the trims might have been +5% (without the OBD connection, because the map is wrong) - so fuel trims would still only have reached a maximum of 5% out, but because of the OBD connection and LPG system (singular) fuel trim is still at -5% and adapting slowly, the would be +5% petrol fuel trim now would need to become +10% for the fueling to be correct.. So the OBD connection has actually made things worse and for longer! But, that extra 5% incorrect fueling will be accounted for when the LPG system slowly steers fueling to correct the issue... Maybe fast enough to prevent the engine warning light coming on, but not fast enough to prevent the incorrect fueling issue that went on for longer. By connecting to OBD, the installer has prevented the driver/owner of being aware of the fueling issue, has prevented any major problem, but has fudged the job by not calibrating the system correctly. The LPG system can only slowly steer adjustment to fueling from the -5% to the +5%, during which time the engine will be running rich at first lean when you touched the throttle. Without that OBD connection, the furthest fueling would have been out would have been 5%, but now (at some points) they are 10% incorrect. Meanwhile, if the map had been correct in the first place, the LPG system would not have compensated at all, the petrol system would not have needed to have done any further correction, so there would have been no lag in the fueling correction... More correct fueling more of the time, without the OBD connection but with accurate mapping.

Too often used by dodgy installers who don't map systems properly, but a poor substitute for accurate mapping. Not very often a good idea to connect an OBD connection - much better to get the mapping correct. Having said that, it is a good idea to use a system with OBD connection on a Jag engine'd Rangerover! That's more due to the fact the Jag engine'd models will require a fuel return. You cannot map such engines on petrol pulse time alone, you do need a scanner that reads live data (and the ability to see petrol pressure helps too).

A simplified explanation but hopefully getting the point across.

lamb190 wrote:
how do you program the map when you first install the system. on my landirenzo ecu im sure it gave me manufacture makes and models to choose from... was this a base map program?

Even if you could find a file labelled 'AEB calibration for 4.4 Jag engined RangeRover', without experience, on your model of vehicle, maybe without an OBD live data reader, you do it very badly mate. Then you pay some 'pro' to calibrate it for you, only to find they don't know their stuff... Or, you could have bought a kit from a pro who does know his stuff and offers free calibration to kit buyers, saved money when all said and done, been issued with a free safety cert...

BMW engine'd 4.4 Rangerover, no probs for a DIYer. Jag engine'd Rangerover not nearly as simple. Maybe learn how to change the map reference points and become familiar with OBD live fuel trim data, lambda ratios, before attempting to calibrate. Would have been good to have had aptitude and plenty experience before getting around to the V8 Jag engine'd vehicle.

There are systems now which claim to be able to adapt for 'poor quality fuel' etc... As if 'oh no there was some steam mixed in with the LPG on that last tank'. :lol: What they do is adjust the multiplier in real time, based on a one time reading of petrol injection duration versus manifold pressure (and sometimes rpm). Most of these make a real mess of fueling because they don't take into account any of the other factors such as various temp corrections . No more can they accurately calculate multiplier, or nozzle size, or working pressure, than a washing machine can bring clothes in the laundry basket downstairs, sort colours, load itself and select correct wash temp. But some of these ECU facilities do a better job of it than some installers.

Depending on how much money you're prepared to waste and issues you're prepared to put up with, maybe see you later. 200 miles from Bristol, lots of people come much further!

Simon

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Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:27 pm 
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wow. just read all that on a late friday afternoon and i think ive just blown my brain. :lol:

its much valued input. and can and do clearly see the need for correct fuel maps.

on a side note.. you mensioned the jag 4.4 is harder to sort (than bmw) as it required such things as fuel return etc. but i thought the fuel return was 4.2SC only? i was under the impression the 4.4 NA was much simple, and hense why i bought one. ??

i think its likely ill have to get this pro installed at this rate. as i have no idea how to set fuel trims and was hoping (wishfull thinking) that it was simpler.

i also doubt i would easily be able to find out easily on the cars ECU which wires which for things like engine temp,RPM etc that he LPG ECU requires.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:54 pm 
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No need to worry about engine temp, vast majority of LPG systems measure LPG reducer temp sensor (reducer is plumbed into vehicle heater water circuit). Or rpm, as vast majority of LPG systems don't need an rpm signal these days.

I may yet be corrected regards fuel return on 4.4 Jag engines, have converted quite a few, though, and do seem to remember a return being needed on these models (I see a lot of vehicles!). Would expect so in theory too, as most Jags after around 2002 need one, Jag and Ford trait....

If a fuel return needs to be fitted, you could still DIY the install but would need an OBD live data reader to show fuel trims as you calibrate, maybe £100 and useful to have anyway.

Simon

_________________
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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