LPG Forum


All times are UTC



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:00 am 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
hi all i am now running a range rover classic lse 4.2 as my daily driver
the existing lpg install runs ok but the stepper motor has been replaced with a manual power valve
have hooked up with leo software and it shows running rich with stepper at pos 1
adjusting power valve simply results in engine dying
i am thinking the vap (omvl r90) is probably duff age uncertain
i am wondering whether it is worth the aprox cost of £600 to upgrade to multipoint system or simply replace existing,
cost about £70
your thoughts much apreciated
regards kev

also am wondering is itpossible to fit a tinley tech lambda to run the gas perhaps in place of one of the standard ones


Last edited by moorsman on Tue May 05, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:30 am 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
Running stupidly rich is a sure sign the R90E diaphragm is shot. Replacing it is cheap and simple whereas fitting a multipoint won't give much of an advantage over the existing install, particularly on something as basic as a Classic. The only thing to bear in mind is that the new R90E doesn't come set somewhere close like the old ones used to and will need setting up. So you would be looking at half an hour to swap the new one and maybe a couple of hours to set it up rather than just half an hour to swap it and 5 minutes to fine tune.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:57 am 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
thanks for that it was how i felt as well. i do struggle a bit regarding set up but seem to get there in the end so will order a new vap from tinley tech today. strangly over the first few tanks the rr is returning the equvilant of 27mpg so high hopes for the magic 30mpg v8 lol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:21 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
I used to get roughly 200 miles out of a 60 litre fill on my LSE, so working out at just over 15mph. Depending on how much you pay for LPG that could hit the 30mpg equivalent mark. The guy that bought it was doing a 50 mile a day commute and reckoned that in a year he'd saved enough that he'd paid for the car!

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:19 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
yeah mine has been doing about 185 to around 60l lpg here about 54ppl so not too bad
have just ordered a new r90e from tinley tech hopefully it will arrive tomorrow and i can get it swapped and running mean and lean lol (not tooo lean tho) any advice on starting points for setting up
regards kev


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:45 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
A quick copy and paste from a document I wrote for someone a while ago. On a new R90E from TT, you'll probably find that you'll need to wind the lower of the two screws out quite a way to get it operating as it should. Confused me for a while when I changed the one on my P38 as the old ones were almost fit and forget.

Setting up a Leonardo

Software is simple enough to get things going. Plug it in and start her up. On the main screen you'll see things like the lambda output and actuator opening. To start from scratch you ideally need a manual valve to fit in place of the actuator. If you don't have one, I've made one using a plastic water pipe Tee piece and a seat belt mounting bolt but you can use just a length of hose and squeeze it with Mole grips if you have nothing suitable.

Take the stepper actuator out of the hose and fit the manual valve but leave the stepper attached to it's cables so you can see what it is doing. Set the manual valve about half open. Go into the software and under the Actuator tab (under Optional Configurations), set the upper and lower limits to 255 for idle and out of idle. If you make any changes in the software you must hit Return after typing the new value in or it doesn't save the setting and reverts back to what it was. Also make sure the actuator default lock box isn't ticked. Screw the idle bleed screw, the top one, all the way in. With the computer connected so you can see what is happening, start the engine and get it running at around 2,500 rpm (screw the throttle cable out on it's adjuster if you are on your own). Adjust the manual valve for highest revs (and adjust the throttle to keep it the same) and check the opening on the stepper. It wants to correspond with what you have the manual valve set at and, looking at the software display (hit F12 to display what is going on), you'll see the lambda sitting either somewhere in the middle of the scale or flipping between extremes. You want the actuator and the manual valve to be somewhere in the middle, around 120 - 150 on the software display. If it is right at the top (fully open), you need to unscrew the main bias screw on the vaporiser half a turn (the lower one with the spring under it) at a time until it is in the middle somewhere. Too low (fully closed), screw it in. Re-tweak the manual valve to get the revs back up. Keep doing this until it is sitting somewhere in the middle. You can check that the actuator is working by watching what does when you adjust the manual valve. Screw the manual valve in a little to make the mixture weak and you will see the lambda go green and the stepper open up to try to compensate. Screw it out to make it rich and the lambda will go red and it should start to close.

Now remove the manual valve and throw it somewhere, you may need it one day but hopefully not for quite a while, and fit the stepper in its place. Start the engine and hold the revs up to confirm that it is still in the wandering around the middle and the lambda output is flipping from one extreme to the other. Let it drop to idle and see what the stepper sits at then. It wants to be roughly the same at idle as at 2,500 rpm. If it closes down, screw the main bias screw in a touch to bring it back up. Rev it again and check that the stepper is still in roughly the same area. You'll need to try this a bit to get the idle and out of idle opening the same. You won't be able to get it spot on and a slightly higher opening at idle is fine. If it opens up at idle, then try screwing the main bias screw out a touch. If you find you can never get the out of idle opening within a sensible range and the idle is still opening up, then open the idle bleed screw a touch. I do mean a touch, it is very sensitive, especially on the newer ones with two 6 mm adjusters.

Finally, when you are happy that it is as good as you are going to get, close the actuator limits down to something sensible, say +-30 at idle and +- 40 at out of idle. If you are lucky, you should be able to get it looking like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6sGp2I9lts which is my 4.0 litre on an identical system.

If the lambda sensor is dead the Leonardo will be adjusting the mixture using incorrect information so getting it wrong. The 0-1V Zirconia sensors used in a 14CUX Classic give 0V for a lean mixture and 1V for rich. So if the lambda sensor has died it is giving 0V, the Leo sees this as a weak mixture so will open the stepper up to make it richer. That will cause you a problem..... In this case, using your manual valve, get the vaporiser set as above and note the actuator number. Tick the Default Lock box and type that number into the box that appears next to it. Then set the idle and out of idle steps to +-5. That way you will have locked the actuator opening to that fixed opening where the mixture is as close as it is going to be for most of the time. Then when you have replaced the lambda sensor, you can set it up correctly.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:15 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
wow thanks for that i will print the page and put laptop under the bonnet.
as to the lambda sensors i did notice when i first hooked it up that the setting was for a 5v sensor and i seem to remember a post somewhere saying about different sensors on different years .
is there any way to check which sensors are in mine?
i do have a multimeter but am not very experienced with it lol.
ps the ranngerovernet forum is full of excellent info


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:41 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
P38 with GEMS controller uses 5-0V Titania sensors, but Classic with the 14CUX and later Thor P38 with Bosch controller use 0-1V. So you should have 0-1V in yours. With it running on petrol and the laptop connected to the Leo, you should be able to see the lambda flipping from side to side and a readout of the voltage it is actually seeing to be sure.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:49 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
lovely thanks.
also was wondering if it would cause any probs if i fitted the vap to the drivers side of engine bay instead of passengerside as this would free up more space around the air cleaner which i want to modify to allow a second battery
i would mount the stepper motor close to the throttle body but obviously there would be a longer run of pipe from vap to stepper
regards kev


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:15 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
Shouldn't matter if you can find a space to squeeze it in and will keep the coolant plumbing shorter. If it isn't already, plumb it in series with the heater not parallel, my LSE would freeze the vap within 300 yards when running on gas from stone cold on a winter day until I changed it. Ran it on gas from initial start up all the time after that. As long as the stepper is as close to the throttle body as possible, the length of hose between the vap and stepper isn't critical.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:29 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
Yes I am hoping plumbing is right as I had no end of problems on the LCD until I figured that out . Was ok in winter with heater on full but within a mile of turning cabin heat down the cap froze


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:49 pm 
Advanced Member

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 7880
Images: 0
Location: Peterborough
That happens if you plumb a vap in series on a car where the heat is controlled by a valve. Turn the heater down and the valve closes so no flow through the heater or vap. Because most older cars were like that most systems got plumbed in parallel so it didn't happen. The Range Rover has full coolant flow through the heater all the time with the temperature controlled by flap valves that direct the airflow through or around the heater matrix. The LSE obviously had a nice clean free flowing, heater matrix so the coolant went through that rather than the vap causing it to freeze. The P38 was plumbed the same when I first got it and, while it never froze, the heater did get decidedly lukewarm when idling in traffic for any length of time in the winter. Presumably the easiest path was through the vap on that. Plumbing them both in series cured both problems. Run from inlet manifold to vap, vap to heater and leave the return as it should be and you can have a toasty heater and a car you can run on gas from initial start even in mid winter.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:28 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
Will make sure it's right when I fit new one lol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:06 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
damm both heater pipes have been cut and tees fitted so i will have to find a straight joint or 3 lol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:08 pm 
New member

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:41 pm
Posts: 52
well had a session under the bonnet yesterday and can now report that all is well with the new vap running nicely through the stepper motor
seemed to take me an age to get it right. these new r90e vaps seem to be very sensitive .
many thanks to richard (gilbertd) for that easy to follow advice .
will now see how i do over a couple of tankfulls .... hoping for the equivilant of 30mpg with gas here now being 55.9
once again many thanks
regards kev
ps i am going to keep manual power valve in the car just in case


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:55 pm 
Installer

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:21 pm
Posts: 3733
Location: Midlands
That reminds me ! I used my last power valve on something the other day. Must get another. The best diagnostic tool for a mixer system.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group