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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:46 am 
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Hi all,

I'm new to the forum & have joined to feel out my options to convert my TVR Chimaera to LPG.

Think Range Rover Classic.

The car is currently running the original Lucas 14CUX system and Lucas distributor ignition.

As an ex-mechanic it's clear to me these are both significant limiting factors to extracting the best efficiency irrespective of fuel type, and further limit my options when moving to LPG.

With this in mind I have been looking at after market ECU systems such as Emerald, MegaSquirt, Canems ect.

I am also interested in exploring the benefits of moving from batch fired injection to a fully sequential system.

To my mind true sequential injection would allow me to get the very best from LPG but would clearly add complications such as a cam position sensor.

Any advice on the above project would be gratefully received.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:43 am 
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CU14X based rovers convert easy, with any basic gas system. Sounds like you are overcomplicating. If you are planning other engine enhancements youy'd need to take those into account when sizing the LPG system.
Tank siting would probably be the limiting factor.

ChimponGas wrote:
I am also interested in exploring the benefits of moving from batch fired injection to a fully sequential system.

Immeasurably small, the main benefits are in emissions not performance.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Thanks guys, I accept the benefits of fully sequential are negligible so we will forget that one.

But I don't see how replacing the virtually unmappable 14CUX (been down that road at great cost with Mark Adams) with something I can map myself on my laptop is unnecessarily overcomplicating things.

Equally ditching the mechanical distributor that can only control advance & retard using centrifugal force, a set of bob weights & a whiff of vacuum has to be a good idea surely.

Going for something like MegaSquirt would immediately put the control back in my hands and allow two efficient fuelling/ignition maps to be built .

Remember this is a TVR not an old Rangie, I want it to work on both fuels and still perform like a sports car on LPG.

Ok then, if I'm barking up the wrong tree, what system do you suggest?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Swap your engine for the later GEMS or Thor Range Rover version? The basic engine is the same so will fit physically, but it has sequential injection and a wasted spark ignition system with no distributor.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:43 pm 
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ChimponGas wrote:
But I don't see how replacing the virtually unmappable 14CUX (been down that road at great cost with Mark Adams) with something I can map myself on my laptop is unnecessarily overcomplicating things.

Equally ditching the mechanical distributor that can only control advance & retard using centrifugal force, a set of bob weights & a whiff of vacuum has to be a good idea surely.

Sure, that's all fine. But it's not really owt to do with LPG. Before or after you do all that, you can fit an off the shelf gas injection system.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Ditching the CUX set up in favour of a stand alone is definately the way to go in terms of performance and reliabilty[we have just finished putting a DTA Pro8 on a twin turbo Chimera].
But dont expect the stand alone to run the lpg as well as the petrol injectors,unless you intend to use the LPG ecu to piggy back from the stand alone.
Megasquirt is a good starter system...but make sure if you do go this way that you only use one sorced through Phil Ringwood.
We have fitted loads to RV8,s and they perform very very well.Above all its cheap by comparison to others[a lot of the others are megasquirt in a different box Mtech etc].

Back to LPG , being fibreglass this causes more headaches ...tank mounting for instance, also consider the weight you will be carrying in the boot..a 70 litre tank will weigh approx 80kg or so,Chimps are tail happy as it is!!.


If you want any more info give me a bell


cheers Woody


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:42 am 
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woody wrote:
Ditching the CUX set up in favour of a stand alone is definately the way to go in terms of performance and reliabilty[we have just finished putting a DTA Pro8 on a twin turbo Chimera].
But dont expect the stand alone to run the lpg as well as the petrol injectors,unless you intend to use the LPG ecu to piggy back from the stand alone.
Megasquirt is a good starter system...but make sure if you do go this way that you only use one sorced through Phil Ringwood.
We have fitted loads to RV8,s and they perform very very well.Above all its cheap by comparison to others[a lot of the others are megasquirt in a different box Mtech etc].

Back to LPG , being fibreglass this causes more headaches ...tank mounting for instance, also consider the weight you will be carrying in the boot..a 70 litre tank will weigh approx 80kg or so,Chimps are tail happy as it is!!.

If you want any more info give me a bell

cheers Woody


Many thanks Woody that all makes perfect sense to me, Phil (DaxTojeiro) has a good reputation amongst the RV8 TVR community, as you will know TVR burdened us all with old the CUX & dizzy even though by the time my car was made the Range Rover was already getting a better system.

The twin turbo project sounds interesting there are a couple out there to my knowledge, are you talking about Richard Attfield's?

Clearly my project has somewhat different objectives, I'm not excessively power hungry, the car is a 4.0 litre running a V8 Developments Stealth cam, a full de-cat, MA Tornado chip and a few other light mods.

I'm running 32 degrees of advance at 3650 rpm, it delivers 246hp & 27mpg on cruise using 95ron, I want it to perform well as a well rounded brisk grand tourer package, not an all out track day toy.

The car runs pretty sweet TBH particularly after my a recent move to BPR6EIX which further confirmed my suspicions there is massive scope to improve the ignition side on these cars.

I have two objectives.

1) Replace the CUX & dizzy with something better that puts the control back in my hands

2) Move to LPG without significant loss of performance or economy thus halving my fuel costs

Both objectives seem to sit hand in hand to me, so rather than doing it in stages I think it makes sense to combine them into one project that will deliver all the advantages on both fuels.

With your experience of LPG & after market ECUs, perhaps it's best to hand the project over to you?

Would you be interested in quoting on the project?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:53 pm 
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There have been various discussions on the Chimaera forum on pistonheads on this subject in the past. The biggest issue is where to put the tank as the chassis finishes under the fuel tank so no structural support for the rest of the boot. Also you don't want to affect the ability to put the roof in. I did see a image of one where a cylindrical tank was mounted behind the seats on the parcel shelf. Also you will want to find a filler location that doesn't involve cutting a hole it the fiberglass on the outside of the body. Probably the same location as the petrol filler in the boot but on the opposite side may be possible?

If I had been keeping mine longer terms this would certainly have been an avenue to look into. My comments are based on Chimaera ownership not as an LPG expert!

The tail happy comment did make me laugh as compared to other RWD cars I actually found the TVR well balanced. I wouldn't fancy a gas tank in the boot though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:49 am 
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The project has progressed.

The platform for the conversion will be an innovative new engine management system.

As far as we can tell this system is the only ECU that has the ability to directly fire low impedance LPG injectors on the second map.

As such the car will not require a piggyback LPG ECU, this gives the ability to precisely build a truly unique separate map for each fuel type.

Significant performance & efficiency improvements are expected in both petrol & LPG performance over the 14CUX & distributor.

A loom will be built to correctly integrate the new ECU package to the car, everything will be designed & engineered with the intention to move to dual fuel from the outset .

Many thanks to Woody for his time last week, it looks like we will be creating a very neat, reliable & highly efficient RV8 conversion.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:08 am 
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Make sure your new wonder ECU will apply both fuel temperature and pressure corrections for LPG, you can't just whack a "gas map" into an ordinary petrol ECU.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:55 am 
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Rest assured the new wonder ECU (as you refer to it) has been specifically designed & engineered by the manufacturer to accommodate & respond to all the unique requirements of LPG.

The manufacturer are experts in the field of engine management systems and have developed the package in partnership with a team of highly qualified aerospace engineers, their combined credentials and experience in this field are proven & beyond reproach.

The true dual fuel ECU offers a significantly more complete package than any piggyback could ever hope to achieve, as such it is infinitely superior to such systems which in engineering terms can at best be considered a compromise.

This project is designed from the outset to be a properly engineered solution to accommodate the original dual fuel design brief, it is not a price driven spliced in conversion encumbered by the limitations of the original rather outdated fuel management system & it's associated archaic ignition control.

There are risks associated with being at the forefront of innovation, however history tells us those prepared to embrace improvements in technology are often the winners of the future.

Given the combined experience of the team involved I confidently predict successful results, we shall however let the rolling road & real world driving characteristics be the judge of that.

Thanks for your interest in my project.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:16 am 
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Is that a copy and paste or do you write advertising blurb for a living?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:33 am 
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Thank you for your kind comments, please excuse me for being blessed with a quality education.

Joking aside, I expect to update you all on the project in the coming months.

Kind regards, COG.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:04 pm 
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ChimponGas wrote:
Rest assured the new wonder ECU (as you refer to it)

I have no other handle to refer to it by ;) It's you that needs to be reassured about basic functionality like density corrections.

ChimponGas wrote:
The true dual fuel ECU offers a significantly more complete package than any piggyback could ever hope to achieve, as such it is infinitely superior to such systems which in engineering terms can at best be considered a compromise.

What suprises me, is all this effort for a product with a really limited market.
I suppose even used without the LPG capability it can nibble away at Megasquirt type sales for elderly or track cars, but there won't be contract sales into real-world LPG conversions of new cars for manufacturer/dealers.
Or aftermarket conversions of newer cars - which don't need any further help with petrol, ignition, etc. and would be a bitch to emulate proper integration with gearboxes, security systems, dashboard, all the stuff that modern cars do. Guess it'll keep those aerospace engineers busy though.

Do keep us posted, it's interesting even if the economics look dodgy so far.

As an end user, you might need to look into if the product will be E-marked, should you need any certification for the car.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:57 am 
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talk to a tuner and see what ecu system they like to use and know
as some work better then others


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:49 am 
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Hi all,

I did promise an update, so here it is.

I've already invested heavily in the project, although LPG is not normally associated with this type of car I see no reason why it shouldn't work very well if I can get the installation and packaging right.

So for those interested, essentially I'm halfway there.

Four months ago a Canems Fully Programmable Dual Fuel Petrol-LPG ECU was fitted & mapped by Lloyd Specialist Developments.

On the face of it this looks like a very expensive rout to LPG, however as I already had intentions to replace the Lucas 14CUX & distributor it made sense to select a system that could also facilitate my dual fuel plans.

I see the Canems Dual Fuel ECU as a foundation for my conversion.

The installation included removing and replacing the 16 year old engine bay loom with a bespoke harness, this made for a much neater installation & should significantly enhance reliability.

Since the installation I've completed 4,000 evaluation miles (petrol only), the system has already proved itself to deliver three significant & very noticeable advantages over the old Lucas 14CUX & distributor.

1. Vastly improved throttle response
2. Increased torque
3. Improved fuel economy

Designed to fire the petrol injectors on map 1 & low impedance LPG injectors on map 2, the ECU is a single body unit sharing the same engine sensor inputs for both fuel types.

A separate output socket is provided for each fuel type & no additional piggyback ECU is required.

Unlike a piggy back the Canems dual fuel ECU is not manipulating petrol requirements to generate a second hand map for LPG; both petrol & LPG maps are completely independent of each other.

This removes a significant compromise & means both fuels can be precisely mapped to accommodate their very unique requirements, if mapped correctly the theory is it should allow for optimum performance on petrol & LPG.

Key features of the system are:

• Map switching facilities
• Automatic injector swapping and solenoid operation
• Enhanced dual-fuel settings
• 8 Peak and hold injector drivers
• Sequential LPG Injection Control for 8 Cylinders
• LPG Solenoid Control
• Two Switchable 3D Fuel Injection Maps with 252 programmable sites
• Two Switchable 3D Ignition Timing Maps with 252 programmable sites
• Semi-Sequential Fuel Injection Control for 8 Cylinders
• Wasted Spark Ignition for 8 Cylinders
• 2 Wide-band or Narrow-band Lambda Inputs - with Closed Loop Control and 3D Target Air-Fuel Ratio map
• Built-in Coil Control (no external modules required - e.g.: EDIS)
• 12000rpm capability
• Programmable Hard and Soft Rev Limiters
• Programmable Shift Light output
• Programmable Correction Maps for Coolant Temperature, Air Temperature and Cranking
• Programmable Transient Enrichments
• Staged Injector Control
• 3D PWM Output - with 252 programmable sites - ideal for open-loop Boost Control
• Further Output - currently controlling the rad fans
• PWM valve and/or Spark Scatter Idle control
• Closed Loop Idle control
• All settings Real-Time Programmable
• Adjustable Coil Dwell Control
• MAP Load Sensor
• RPM input from VR Sensor
• Data-logging of up to 24 optional parameters, with adjustable recording rate
• Diagnostic Recording of Max. / Min. Inputs and Outputs

I have also added an AEM Wireless System that allows me to monitor air fuel ratios under varying load conditions on the move, viewed on a wireless enabled IPod Touch or Ipad.

This system also has the facility to also show exhaust gas temperatures on both banks.

The Canems dual fuel system has already proved itself to be a big step forward over the 14CUX & distributor, in theory it should also make for a neater and more efficient conversion to LPG than the traditional piggy back ECU.

Prins VSI LPG front end components have been selected for their quality & reliability, the tank location & size has been designed with the following in mind:

• Optimum safety
• Best weight distribution
• Roof panel storage in boot retained
• Useful luggage capacity retained
• LPG touring range of 300 miles

Bringing all these elements together with minimal compromises has been challenging to say the least, I plan to complete some final mock ups in the next few weeks to establish the optimal set up.

I'm currently in the process of choosing between two potential fitters, pleasingly both are showing equal enthusiasm for the project.

My objective is to see the car running perfectly on both fuels by early 2013.

Wish me luck :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:25 am 
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ChimponGas wrote:
Unlike a piggy back the Canems dual fuel ECU is not manipulating petrol requirements to generate a second hand map for LPG ...This removes a significant compromise

What significant compromise? What 'unique requirement' is not met by a slaved fiddle-factor system?

ChimponGas wrote:
• Staged Injector Control

curious, what does this refer to?

I question the apparent lack of LPG fuel density corrections. It'll sorta work without, but not optimally and contrasts with all the other whizzy bits.

ChimponGas wrote:
The Canems dual fuel system has already proved itself to be a big step forward over the 14CUX & distributor

I'll bet it is!!

ChimponGas wrote:
in theory it should also make for a neater and more efficient conversion to LPG than the traditional piggy back ECU.

Can't see why, apart from one-less-box.

ChimponGas wrote:
Bringing all these elements together with minimal compromises has been challenging to say the least

I'll bet, so many conflicts with sensible size tank, fitting method, pipe/vent routing in a car like this.

ChimponGas wrote:
Wish me luck :D

The very best of it! Really interesting project.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Hi, newbie to the forum and LPG in TVR's (have had lots of LPG's and TVR's but not together ...yet.

I'm a bit of a numptie on techy things but I'm getting my Griffith 500 LPG'd with the 'Dream 21n EOBD' system and reading these posts have a couple of qu's:
1. I like the 'self mapping' ability the system offers but wonder how it copes with different maps on my ECU (I have 2 set up currently) and how quick it adjusts to sudden need for power/heavy right foot;
2. I am going to get a lube added but not sure if needed - probably me being over cautious but you hear the stories of V8 engines getting too hot with LPG/needing rebuilds etc....
3. My engine uses ALOT of oil although compression tests seen OK - will LPG possibly use less I wonder?

Hope qu's are relevant to the OP partly as I didn't wish to hijack this thread....

Thanks for any responses, Paul.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:21 pm 
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1, The Dream is the controller but the more important parts are the reducer and injectors which must be up to the job of supplying sufficient fuel, even at full throttle. The LPG system tracks the petrol map so should be fine with different maps.
2, Not needed, while LPG does run hotter than petrol it is only marginally so. Any extra heat would affect the exhaust valves and seats which are sufficiently hard to cope with it. LR V8s can get hot anyway no matter what fuel they are running on but that is usually down to something else entirely (water pump, thermostat, liner problems, etc).
3, Doubt it, if it's using oil rather than dropping it on the floor, I'd be looking at valve stem seals if the bores and rings are OK. Changing fuel won't have any effect on that.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Thanks Gilbertd - some reassuring words.

Can't wait to see the finished product/have a V8 beast giving 50mpg equivalent.

Will be interesting to see if the flames produced on overrun on my 2nd map will be larger when on gas? :D


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