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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Please could you advise which LPG conversion is the best for a 2004 / 2005 4.4 V8 Range Rover?
Looking at buying one and having it converted to run on LPG
Which installers would you recommend?
Any help much appreciated - Thankyou in advance...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:59 pm 
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That question opens more cans of worms that any other asked on here. There is no best, there is what various different people install and consider acceptable. Virtually any sytem will be up to the job on the BMW V8, some will just be marginally better or last longer than others.

When choosing an installer go for one that is local, definitely do not go for the cheapest. So the choice of installer depends on where you are.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
That question opens more cans of worms that any other asked on here. There is no best, there is what various different people install and consider acceptable. Virtually any sytem will be up to the job on the BMW V8, some will just be marginally better or last longer than others.

When choosing an installer go for one that is local, definitely do not go for the cheapest. So the choice of installer depends on where you are.

also range rover changed engines around 2005 to ford /jag and they dont convert very well....if its the BMW 4.4 then you should have no probs

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:08 am 
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It is true that there is no best system.

Not any system will do on a BMW V8. These engines make 286bhp. You need a system with a reducer capable of flowing that much LPG otherwise you're going to either be running lean at the top end of the power range or using petrol at the top end of the power range. To make for a neat job, you want injectors that will fit under the plastic engine cover. Ideally, the injectors shouldn't fit with the plunger shafts mounted horizontally, as this can make the injectors wear out quicker.

There are good and bad performing parts, and then there are reliable and unreliable parts.

There are combinations of components that complement each other better than other combinations on specific applications.

Then there is what will physically fit on the vehicle - either for the amount of space available full stop, or bearing in mind you want to keep the install looking neat and tidy / like factory fitted.

I consider all of the above when choosing components to make a system to install on a vehicle.

Let's look at a thought process when considering parts for a 4.4 RangeRover, and I'll just mention / consider a few components to keep it simple....

There is plenty of room under the bonnet on a 4.4 Range Rover to fit the reducer, ECU, injectors and everything else - But to make for a neat install you want injectors that will fit under the plastic engine cover of the BMW engine. This rules out all the 'down draught' type injectors. I like OMVL Superlight injectors for many applications because they perform very well (if not the best) and are extremely reliable. Incidentally, these are side draught not down draught. On the 4.4 Rangerover they just fit under the plastic engine cover if the sound deadening material is removed from it. Or, MagicJet injectors perform even better than the superlights and fit easily under the engine cover, but I've seen a couple of coil failures on these injectors and, although I like their performance, I think the wires that connect them to the loom look like they might easily break off. I have fitted many different reducers on 4.4 RR's, mostly OMVL Dream reducers and MagicJet reducers, but also KME, Bigas, Prins to name just a few. I don't fit many OMVL reducers these days as the temp sensors don't seem as reliable on them as they used to be and they're not great on pressure stability, but they are good at high flow rates. The MJet reducers don't flow quite as well as the OMVL and don't respond to demand as fast, but they are more pressure stable. One downside to the MJ reducer is that the pressure limit is 1.5 bar. If we fit the MJ reducer along with MJ injectors, no problem with getting the gas into the engine even with only 1.5 bar as the MJ injectors flow exceptionally well.. No problem except for a possible low pressure blip due to the not so great response to demand from the reducer. Now we're into ECU's - which ECU? With most LPG components including those mentioned above, we might expect a short and slight low pressure blip if the driver suddenly slammed his foot down on the throttle... it's not like most people drive like that often, but as installers we've got to make the system drive on LPG just like it does on petrol in all circumstances. If we fit an AEB system we're not fitting a truly sequential system, as AEB only measure the petrol injector durations from number 1 and number 5 cylinders and each LPG injector gets the same injection pulse time. In contrsast, there are many none-AEB systems that are truly sequential. If we fit an AEB system we have the advantage of being able to dial in a petrol addition to cover the low pressure blip, which is not possible with other systems. Not being truly sequential, the AEB ECU might suffer slight hesitation due to not being able to respond to quickly changing individual cylinder injection durations at low rpms with a quickly adjusting throttle position, but this could be dialled out in a crude fashion by using the 'enrichment in acceleration' slider. This slider isn't necessary on truly sequential systems however, as they do measure each injector's duration individually. The AEB ECU has facility, due to the 'petrol addition' capability, of correcting any issues with getting gas into the engine under demanding circumstances but the none AEB ECU, though more technically correct, has not. The AEB ECU offers very good calibration prospects for both load and rpm, whereas the none AEB offers very good load calibration but cruder RPM calibration. However, on most applications, rpm calibration is not very important.

Just a note, but the BMW 4.4 engine, fitted in the RangeRover, runs with a different ECU than the same engine fitted in the X5. The X5 takes longer to calibrate properly, whereas the RangeRover is quick to do a good job of calibration. With the X5, fuel trims seem to change even though you're seeing the same petrol injector durations but the RangeRover is a more conventional vehicle to calibrate.

So, turning the question around for a moment, armed with all the above information, which combination of components out of those i've just mentioned would you fit? There is no easy or best answer, and we have fitted all combinations of the above, and all run better than most other systems you'd pay more for fitted elsewhere. All components are amongst the best in their field. Any shortfalls mentioned are me being hypercritcal and detecting slight areas which could be improved upon whilst using a connected compouter. The driver wouldn't be aware of any difference when driving on petrol or LPG. On RangeRovers we don't just fit the components mentioned above, we've fitted many other components to make up many different systems too. There are dozens and dozens of L322 RangeRovers out there that we've converted and all run on LPG just like they do on petrol. Any company that says they 'fit the best system' are talking from bias, and where does that bias come from...? It comes from the fact that they only fit a limited range of systems, and they only fit the standard components that come in those systems.

The Jag engines convert fine too, and have converted many supercharged RangeRovers with the Jag engine. The Jag engines, though, do need valve lube systems, petrol returns, injector impedance matching units. Have converted supercharged RangeRovers and not used a petrol addition, courtesy of the two reducers capable of flowing enough gas for 800bhp between them and the excellent performing injectors we fitted.

It is worth noting that AEB is the manufcaturer who makes ECUs for OMVL, Bigas, Zavoli, Romano, etc etc.

If you have a preference in components that you'd like installing, we will likely be able to fit a system comprised of those components. We may offer advice where components complement each other for your vehicle and will, of course, offer advice anyway if we think you want it! In most cases when the customer chooses their own components it doesn't affect our price. Some components do affect price. By default we choose components that perform very well, are very reliable and are suited to the application. This is a much better approach than the 'one size fits all' mentality that people get elsewhere.

Simon in Yorkshire
at http://www.Lpgc.co.uk

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Personally i have fitted many a different gas system in my time, which is rolling up to the 16th year now ? how did that happen. I cut my teeth on early open loop, moved onto Leonardo's and then onto LPG injection systems. And i have to say that the AEB way of doing things works for me. Out of all the varied systems that run the AEB ecu, the nicest, most well behaved system i have come across is the EMER system. The Palladio reducer never seems to drop its pressure, considering its probably half the size of the Bigas reducer its always quite astounding on the larger engines. As far as pressure stability goes I cant say I've ever seen better. That includes the so called 'high end' systems.
At the end of the day its customers choice really. I cant really understand people who go and spend big money on a car and then look for the cheapest, quickest conversion. In turn they all seem to end up on here...moaning about the problems that they all so blindly walked into. At least the OP is doing a bit of homework before taking the plunge. Makes a change.
But there is no reason why you should go and spend £2500 on an LPG conversion when a conversion costing £1550 will do equally as well. Its all about pay off at the end of the day. Most companies offer a 24 month warranty. The ones offering a 'lifetime' warranty fail to tell you that if something like an injector rail packs up then its classed as a wear item. So they wont cover that under warranty. However, as installers are pretty much bound by the manufacturer's warranty its 24 months generally.
But you want to have a pay off for your initial outlay within that period really. I'm not saying the system will be knackered in 25 moths either, far from it. I have systems that are years and years old, having covered well in excess of 200k that you only hear about when the customer wants a new car converting.
Unfortunately they never appear on the forum because its only ever people doing some legwork or people with problems. It looks awfully problematic from the veiws on this forum. But installed correctly, using good quality components a system should easily do the lifetime of the car.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:08 pm 
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Would agree with a lot of what Tubbs says, and have fitted the same.

It is worth bearing in mind the drawbacks at the same time as the advantages when considering AEB systems though, and then selecting an AEB based system where they are best suited to the vehicle. The main drawback is that they only measure petrol injection duration of one cylinder on each cylinder bank, which can lead to incorrect fueling on other cylinders (especially with a quickly changing accelerator position at low rpm). Main advantages are ability to do petrol additions and effective rpm correction - though rpm correction is less useful with good injectors.

The day is probably coming when AEB based systems won't work on some new cars - some inline 4 cylinder cars already run as 2 cylinder banks... if they start making cars with 1 Lambda per cylinder, which they likely will, then AEB will be no good for purpose whereas a lot of other systems will work equally as well as they do already.

I keep saying this but I'll say it again - A lot of installers fit the same system to every vehicle they convert, usually because they're comfortable fitting that system. To me, they are not therefore LPG specialists but are only specialists in that particular system. Better to apply lateral thinking, to choose an LPG system for an application, and to know a wide range of LPG systems and components - Doing so allows the installer to repair those other systems too.

Simon
www.Lpgc.co.uk
07816237240

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Quote:
The day is probably coming when AEB based systems won't work on some new cars - some inline 4 cylinder cars already run as 2 cylinder banks... if they start making cars with 1 Lambda per cylinder, which they likely will, then AEB will be no good for purpose whereas a lot of other systems will work equally as well as they do already
.
So what do you base this information on then simon ? AEB see it as a sequential system. Is it because you take the switched live from cylinder 1 ?
I would be interested to know what you base your opinion on.
All the systems, not just the AEB based ones we now fit will be no good for purpose within the next 6-12 months on new cars anyhow....They are all going over to direct injection engines. Luckily we still have a few years left on the vapour injection systems because we generally see cars 3 years old and upwards. But its all happening, and you don't think AEB know that, I'm sure, in fact i know that they do.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:21 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
some inline 4 cylinder cars already run as 2 cylinder banks...

*gasp* just like straight six Jags and BMWs of yesteryear ... whaddawegonnadonow ...

LPGC wrote:
choose an LPG system for an application, and to know a wide range of LPG systems and components

Wholeheartedly agree there.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:21 pm 
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excellent - LPG god, simon talks shite yet again


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:38 am 
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Tubbs, Rosko, Tommo,

I base that information on the fact that governments and hence manufacturers are pushing more and more to get emissions down further. If you have one lambda probe on an engine with 4 cylinders, then some of those cylinders will run richer than others because although almost the exact same amount of fuel may go to each, there may be different amounts of air going to each due to differences in wear and machining tolerances on valve gear etc. So, some cylinders will be more likely to produce Nox and some more likely to produce HC/CO emissions. On a 4 cylinder engine with one lambda probe, the single lambda sees something that will approximate average lambda across the 4 cylinders, so average mixture may be correct even though each cylinder can be running a slightly off mixture. On 4 cylinder single bank engines, we never used to see more than one pre cat lambda - we do now, and it's due to emissions. As one of you said, many 6 cylinder engines have had 2 pre cat lambdas for a long time - why do you think they do that? In fact, why does any engine need more than one pre cat lambda? It is because manufacturers know they can reduce emissions with more lambda probes. One per cylinder bank used to suffice but it seems now some manufacturers are already thinking one per bank isn't enough. If manufacturers can get each cylinder working at closer to the correct mixture by not compromising on number of lambda installs (compromising by having less than one lambda per cylinder) then they are likely to do that. 2 lambda probes on a 4 cylinder engine is a compromise between having 1 lambda probe (like most do) and 4 lambda probes - 3 wouldn't be feesible. So, do you think emissions is going to get less or more important? Considering one lambda per cylinder helps emissions and that some manufactiurers are already fitting more lambda probes than necessary (in fact all are that make V engines), do you think it is likely that manufacturers are likely to make vehicles with one lambda per cylinder? I do and having read the above, I reckon most people with a bit of sense will.

Considering the 4 cylinder engines that already have 2 pre cat lambdas - if the same manufacturer of these made a new V8 engine it would seem they would use this 1 lambda per 2 cylinder approach to the fuelling, because to not do so would seem a backwards step? On a V8 that would now be 4 cylinder banks - and AEB N systems would not be suitable.

It would seem AEB agree. According to at least one importer, AEB are working on a different LPG ECU that will be capable of measuring each petrol injector's duration and adjust LPG injection on an individual basis - like many of the none AEB systems have been doing for years. AEB N systems monitor petrol injector duration only from the blue wires - Surely you know that? If you don't believe me, ask someone else, or try this.. On your next 6 cylinder install, use 2 x 4 cylinder rails. Then connect the D output to the 4th injector that isn't used and don't blank the D output off. Injector D pulses gas out just the same as injectors A B and C - even though the yellow channel 4 wires aren't even connected. Why do you think it does that then? Why do you think AEB N systems only show injection time for each bank, not for each cylinder like other systems? Why do you think AEB N have a bank trim when other systems have an individual cylinder trim?

Don't be silly - it doesn't matter where the red and white injector on wire goes as long as it gets 12v when the ignition is on.

So the person who thinks AEB measure each petrol injector's duaration and give each LPG injector it's own corresponding duration has demonstrated how well they know the system they install - I have mentioned the V6 test above - Anyone reading this with an AEB N system on a V6 can connect injector output D to an injector and they will see it pulsing - proving that the LPG injectors output has got nothing to do with anything measured from petrol injector wiring to cylinders 2,3 and 4 (4 at least).

The person who said I was talking rubbish - I won't quote the guy I thought this site was moderated - proven wrong.

Thanks to the guy who inadvertently, by ignorance, helped prove one of my points - by mentioning the fact some straight 6's have had 2 lambdas and 2 banks for years but then not thinking it through properly - why were straight 6's fitted with 2 lambdas again?

Who called me the LPG god? I don't think that - I just know my job and am prepared to show up the people that criticise my comments whilst not knowing what they're talking about.

Simon
LPGC

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:49 am 
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I will have to check, but i thought that when you enabled the two banks within the AEB system it then monitored bank B separately, Otherwise how can it give diffrent reading on injection times.
If this is the case then as you say a V engine which has had two Lambda's per bank for many years now can still be controlled correctly.

The Jag straigt six had two lambdas pre cat as it treated the engine in the same way as it does a V engine, two banks of 3.

Toyotas have had 4 lambdas on some of their 4 cylinder vehicles for years, (like a V4 engine or maybe even a flat 4!!!) and AEB systems have run them absolutley fine. Little bit stange that they employ the same strategy on their V8's though and treat it as two banks of 4 rather than putting in 16 lambda sensors.

Modern engines are quite clever and relativley efficient in their monitoring, so if there was a bad cylinder it would flag a code on most modern cars. I belive it is called missfire monitoring, which a lot of cars of had for a number of years now.

So there you go just because it doesn't monitor each individual injector doesn't mean that it won't work and still work effectively as the vehciles petrol ECU is still doing all its clever stuff and keeping a careful eye on things

I agree that it would be better to monitor each individual injector, and some other systems do, Easyjet for one, but AEB systems have worked without problems for many years on such vehicles.

All LPG manufacturese are are striving to make their systems better, which is why we have Euro regulations and all LPG system Manufacturers must comply, Some manufacturers state that their systemr are compatible with the lateset euro regs


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:11 am 
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mercedes straight six also has two regulating lambdas, same way it has in the V6, V8 also has two regulating lambda's.
4 cylinder only has 1 regulating lambda though.

So from that logic the 4 cylinder is teated as one bank, the V8 will see it as two banks of 4. the staright six will see it as two banks of 3, in the same way it does the V6. Nothing really groundbreaking there, been like it for years. How do they manage to run fine and comply with emission regulations??

As any installer will tell you, Mercs convert very well indeed to LPG and a lot of them are on AEB systems.

A lot of problems that are found with installations are the fact that the installer does not know of any little quirks or strange occurances with an engine, when the Jags first arrived on the scene they caught a few installers out because of the controlled fuel pressure issue.

The hyundai V6 has 3 cats, one for each bank and another after the two, it still only has 4 lambda's, 2 regulating and 2 diagnostic


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:11 am 
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OK Simon - how do you explain that the later AEB software has individual timings showing for each petrol and gas injector (which are live and all slightly different) ??


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:57 am 
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.. a 4.4 RR does not have individual lambda sensors per cylinder ... an AEB derived system, old or new, will work fine on it ... a Polish system will work fine ... no-one asked about yet-to-be-marketed cars, and if existing gas systems will support them, or if there are changes released/in development to support them ...

Any further advice for the OP ? It's getting hard to pick it out.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
That question opens more cans of worms that any other asked on here. There is no best, there is what various different people install and consider acceptable. Virtually any sytem will be up to the job on the BMW V8, some will just be marginally better or last longer than others.

When choosing an installer go for one that is local, definitely do not go for the cheapest. So the choice of installer depends on where you are.


agree with everything said here except the advice to go to your local installer. Yes it will be handier should anything go wrong but I have experienced price differentials of £500+ for the same installation.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Tubbs wrote:
Personally i have fitted many a different gas system in my time, which is rolling up to the 16th year now ? how did that happen. I cut my teeth on early open loop, moved onto Leonardo's and then onto LPG injection systems. And i have to say that the AEB way of doing things works for me. Out of all the varied systems that run the AEB ecu, the nicest, most well behaved system i have come across is the EMER system. The Palladio reducer never seems to drop its pressure, considering its probably half the size of the Bigas reducer its always quite astounding on the larger engines. As far as pressure stability goes I cant say I've ever seen better. That includes the so called 'high end' systems.
At the end of the day its customers choice really. I cant really understand people who go and spend big money on a car and then look for the cheapest, quickest conversion. In turn they all seem to end up on here...moaning about the problems that they all so blindly walked into. At least the OP is doing a bit of homework before taking the plunge. Makes a change.
But there is no reason why you should go and spend £2500 on an LPG conversion when a conversion costing £1550 will do equally as well. Its all about pay off at the end of the day. Most companies offer a 24 month warranty. The ones offering a 'lifetime' warranty fail to tell you that if something like an injector rail packs up then its classed as a wear item. So they wont cover that under warranty. However, as installers are pretty much bound by the manufacturer's warranty its 24 months generally.
But you want to have a pay off for your initial outlay within that period really. I'm not saying the system will be knackered in 25 moths either, far from it. I have systems that are years and years old, having covered well in excess of 200k that you only hear about when the customer wants a new car converting.
Unfortunately they never appear on the forum because its only ever people doing some legwork or people with problems. It looks awfully problematic from the veiws on this forum. But installed correctly, using good quality components a system should easily do the lifetime of the car.


My experience is that it all boils down to the expertise ( or lack of it ) of the installer. I am a user and have been for over 10 years. My first system was a so called cheap Italian system and it is still going strong. My most recent was the so called top of the range Prins system - paid £500 more for this system and it has let me down 3 times in the 3rd year following installation. The problem has been the same on all 3 occasions - first injection failure ( electrical). For my next system my mmain focus will be on getting a well recommended installer rather than focussing on what system is best.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:22 pm 
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As the OP hasn't responded in over 18 months (frightened off torrents of irrelevance?) the sound advice may be a bit late ;)

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