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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:31 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
So far this reads as though you may have LPG injector plugs on the wrong injectors on the bank where turning off an LPG injector causes a misfire, and you may have a reducer coolant flow problem at low rpm cruising speeds.


Thanks Simon, I'll take another look at this. The lettering on the injector plugs has worn off, but I matched the wiring colours from the other bank. I'm not 100% sure which bank the (misfire when turning off) corresponds to but I presume it'll be the bank which had the melted plugs. Also, now that my lead is working I can check the coolant temp while cruising :-)


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:10 pm 
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I've tried swopping plugs on the injectors around but to no avail. It's not making any sense. I wonder why they don't make wiring looms with matching colours so that the cut injector wires on the LPG ECU loom match with the colours of the loom feeding the LPG injectors? Surely this would make absolute sense and avoid any confusion! I have two sets of cut injector wires green/red /blue but the wires to the lpg injectors are yellow orange and red. Does anyone know which corresponds to which?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:45 pm 
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http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/content/downloads/AEB%202568D%205-6-8%20CYLINDERS%20MULTIPOINT%20SEQUENTIAL%20INJECTION%20KIT%20WITH%20OBD.pdf
Does this help any? (scroll down past the first section to page 19 - this bit should what you want and is in English, so probably a better bet than the Italian version at the top!)

"GAS INJECTOR CONNECTION/PETROL INJECTOR INTERRUPT:
-
Sheath with ring A
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector BLUE AND BLUE-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring B
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector RED AND RED-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring C
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector GREEN AND GREEN-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring D
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector YELLOW AND YELLOW-BLACK wires"

You'd need to take note of which bank your working on, It suggests you skip the yellow and yellow-black pair for 3 cylinders, so would expect you to skip both pairs in your case.

I can't find the colours of the matching injector loom, I don't have a matching AEB system to look at. If you unplug one of the injectors does it just show an injector error or does it tell you injector X error? If so thats probably your easiest way to identify them?. With any luck Simon or someone else might give you an answer anyway on that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Brian_H wrote:
http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/content/downloads/AEB%202568D%205-6-8%20CYLINDERS%20MULTIPOINT%20SEQUENTIAL%20INJECTION%20KIT%20WITH%20OBD.pdf
Does this help any? (scroll down past the first section to page 19 - this bit should what you want and is in English, so probably a better bet than the Italian version at the top!)

"GAS INJECTOR CONNECTION/PETROL INJECTOR INTERRUPT:
-
Sheath with ring A
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector BLUE AND BLUE-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring B
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector RED AND RED-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring C
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector GREEN AND GREEN-BLACK wires.
-
Sheath with ring D
to connect to the gas injector at the interrupted petrol injector with the cut injector YELLOW AND YELLOW-BLACK wires"

You'd need to take note of which bank your working on, It suggests you skip the yellow and yellow-black pair for 3 cylinders, so would expect you to skip both pairs in your case.

I can't find the colours of the matching injector loom, I don't have a matching AEB system to look at. If you unplug one of the injectors does it just show an injector error or does it tell you injector X error? If so thats probably your easiest way to identify them?. With any luck Simon or someone else might give you an answer anyway on that.


Thanks Brian, looking back at my installation pics that does appear to correspond with the way it's wired. But, I'm still with the same problem ie misfiring when I turn off each individual injector from the software. If I unplug an injector it will tell me injector 3 error for example, but it doesn't tell me which one '3' is. The injectors aren't labelled numerically but ABC (D) EFG (H) so which one is '3'?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:16 pm 
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colin33 wrote:
I've tried swopping plugs on the injectors around but to no avail. It's not making any sense. I wonder why they don't make wiring looms with matching colours so that the cut injector wires on the LPG ECU loom match with the colours of the loom feeding the LPG injectors? Surely this would make absolute sense and avoid any confusion! I have two sets of cut injector wires green/red /blue but the wires to the lpg injectors are yellow orange and red. Does anyone know which corresponds to which?


On perhaps most LPG ECU looms the gas injector wires do match the petrol injector break wires channel for channel but even on those that don't it's still simple enough to match up wiring colour / markings. You have an AEB system so gas injector colours don't match petrol injector break colours but blu/red/grn/yel correspond to gas injector outputs ABCD and if you have a V6 not a V8 you only use blu red grn and ABC... I reread some of the thread to find you had a Kng system but even if I didn't re-read to find King I'd know you had AEB just from the wiring colours. Being a King system it will be a new enough AEB system to be fully sequential so (in theory) as long as you match inputs to outputs you should be OK regards channel routing.

There have been reports on other forums of fake branded spark plugs. If the vehicle otherwise runs OK, why not try fitting a set of plugs sourced from a reputable outlet before taking it further with the LPG system?

Simon

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:30 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
colin33 wrote:
I've tried swopping plugs on the injectors around but to no avail. It's not making any sense. I wonder why they don't make wiring looms with matching colours so that the cut injector wires on the LPG ECU loom match with the colours of the loom feeding the LPG injectors? Surely this would make absolute sense and avoid any confusion! I have two sets of cut injector wires green/red /blue but the wires to the lpg injectors are yellow orange and red. Does anyone know which corresponds to which?


On perhaps most LPG ECU looms the gas injector wires do match the petrol injector break wires channel for channel but even on those that don't it's still simple enough to match up wiring colour / markings. You have an AEB system so gas injector colours don't match petrol injector break colours but blu/red/grn/yel correspond to gas injector outputs ABCD and if you have a V6 not a V8 you only use blu red grn and ABC... I reread some of the thread to find you had a Kng system but even if I didn't re-read to find King I'd know you had AEB just from the wiring colours. Being a King system it will be a new enough AEB system to be fully sequential so (in theory) as long as you match inputs to outputs you should be OK regards channel routing.

There have been reports on other forums of fake branded spark plugs. If the vehicle otherwise runs OK, why not try fitting a set of plugs sourced from a reputable outlet before taking it further with the LPG system?

Simon


Yes on the spark plugs - just as they were brought in a batch doesn't mean they were even from the same box. Boxes of them are usually 10 to a box after all. I've brought 4 NGKs before and ended up with different colour boxes (some blue, some orange) in the same part number.

His problem I think is that the ABCD marking bits have fallen off so he doesn't know which of the gas connector outputs is A/B/C/D ?


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:05 am 
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I don't suspect the plugs because it's too much of a coincidence for 3 plugs on one bank to be absolutely fine and all 3 on the opposite bank to be damaged. They were all purchasd and fitted at the same time. It just has to be an issue with that bank. As I mentioned earlier, I did change the ignition coil as I had a suspected fault with it. I'm pretty sure these coils consist of two windings, one for each bank. I do wonder whether one of the windings was duff (the 2 windings were giving different resistance readings) and caused the problem with one bank.
However, that doesn't explain my current problem in which although I appear to have the right plugs on the right injectors, (cross checked inj plug colours with my other vehicle's identical system) there is still a misfire when I turn off the injectors within the software. I also feel that the engine runs hotter than it used to, the fan overrun seems to be in use far more than I remember.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:02 pm 
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colin33 wrote:
I don't suspect the plugs because it's too much of a coincidence for 3 plugs on one bank to be absolutely fine and all 3 on the opposite bank to be damaged. They were all purchasd and fitted at the same time. It just has to be an issue with that bank. As I mentioned earlier, I did change the ignition coil as I had a suspected fault with it. I'm pretty sure these coils consist of two windings, one for each bank. I do wonder whether one of the windings was duff (the 2 windings were giving different resistance readings) and caused the problem with one bank.
However, that doesn't explain my current problem in which although I appear to have the right plugs on the right injectors, (cross checked inj plug colours with my other vehicle's identical system) there is still a misfire when I turn off the injectors within the software. I also feel that the engine runs hotter than it used to, the fan overrun seems to be in use far more than I remember.


Did you manage to get a look at the petrol side of the data via obd (Fuel trims, what the lambda sensor is doing etc?)


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Did you manage to get a look at the petrol side of the data via obd (Fuel trims, what the lambda sensor is doing etc?)[/quote]

No not yet Brian. I'm not sure how to do this, I've only ever used the OBD to check fault codes, but I'll take a look at it this week.
The lambdas look like they're both behaving in a similar pattern on the LPG software though...


Last edited by colin33 on Sun May 20, 2018 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:18 pm 
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What are you actually using on the obd port? Theres a variety of different devices and what they can show does differ somewhat. What you want is the live data if you can get access to it. That should show you a figure for each bank for a short and long term trim. That will indicate if the bank is running correctly or rich or lean. You might also get a different display of the lambda output for each bank, it should look like a smooth alternating wave if its working properly (this may be visible in the king software, I've not used it to tell you for sure).

Any idea how the king ecu is hooked up? Is it directly connected to the lambda sensors? (this isn't usually recommended on sequential systems anymore as it can cause as many problems as it helped with originally). It may be monitoring via OBD if those wires are the only ones hooked up.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:43 pm 
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From memory, A yellow B orange C red D brown but I think he's already found this by looking at LPG injector plugs which still have the ABCD markings on the other bank.

If the ABCD outputs are properly matched to respective petrol injector break wires, then if switching a channel back to petrol causes a misfire this is a clue that either calibration is very wrong on that bank or something else (such as the LPG ECU or petrol injector break wiring) is dodgy. By calibration I don't just mean software calibration, it also includes pressure, injector spec, injector health and nozzle size.

Perhaps the most likely explanation is that the injectors on the effected bank have smaller nozzles (at least effectively) than those on the apparently good bank. But first I would try swapping injector plugs around on the effected bank to see if the misfire still occurs when channels are switched back to petrol to rule out possible incorrect petrol injector cut routing.

Can find out which bank you're switching injectors on because plug markings are ABCD for what is bank 1 in software and EFGH for bank 2, wiring colours for EFGH are the same as ABCD respectively.

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Tue May 22, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:31 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
From memory, A yellow B orange C red D brown but I think he's already found this by looking at LPG injector plugs which still have the ABCD markings on the other bank.

If the ABCD outputs are properly matched to respective petrol injector break wires, then if switching a channel back to petrol causes a misfire this is a clue that either calibration is very wrong on that bank or something else (such as the LPG ECU or petrol injector break wiring) is dodgy.

Perhaps the most likely explanation is that the injectors on the effected bank have smaller nozzles (at least effectively) than those on the apparently good bank. But first I would try swapping injector plugs around on the effected bank to see if the misfire still occurs when channels are switched back to petrol to rule out possible incorrect petrol injector cut routing.

Can find out which bank you're switching injectors on because plug markings are ABCD for what is bank 1 in software and EFGH for bank 2.

Simon


What I did discover today is that when I replaced my injector rails recently, with exactly the same make/model, it turns out the new ones had slightly smaller nozzels. I think they are 2mm. I've swopped these to the 2.5mm from my original injectors. Went for a drive but it's still not running well. You may be right Simon, the wiring to the injectors may be suffering, it's squashed in under the plenum so subject to heat etc. Will take half a day just to expose it but I may have to if nothing else sorts the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Brian_H wrote:
What are you actually using on the obd port? Theres a variety of different devices and what they can show does differ somewhat. What you want is the live data if you can get access to it. That should show you a figure for each bank for a short and long term trim. That will indicate if the bank is running correctly or rich or lean. You might also get a different display of the lambda output for each bank, it should look like a smooth alternating wave if its working properly (this may be visible in the king software, I've not used it to tell you for sure).

Any idea how the king ecu is hooked up? Is it directly connected to the lambda sensors? (this isn't usually recommended on sequential systems anymore as it can cause as many problems as it helped with originally). It may be monitoring via OBD if those wires are the only ones hooked up.


Yes, both lambdas are connected to the lpg ecu. I didn't connect them originally but Tubbs (whatever happened to him??) connected them in when he was down my way a few years back. I can't remember the reasoning, but they remain connected...


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:20 am 
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Just had a quick scan through this thread but haven't found which AEB ECU and type of injectors you had before and have now..? edit found King ECU but still don't know before and after injectors.

Did you replace injectors on both banks?

Vectra V6... 2.5litre?

What actual pressure does the system read when running on gas? What pressure is set in software?

What range of numbers does your calibration screen have? When the engine is idling on petrol what numbers does the ball hover around (numbers inside the grid of boxes)? What injectors are selected in software?

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:42 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Just had a quick scan through this thread but haven't found which AEB ECU and type of injectors you had before and have now..? edit found King ECU but still don't know before and after injectors. the before and after injectors are OMVL Reg Fast Blue

Did you replace injectors on both banks? Yes

Vectra V6... 2.5litre? yes

What actual pressure does the system read when running on gas? What pressure is set in software? 1 bar set in software. 1.02 bar at tickover on lpg

What range of numbers does your calibration screen have? When the engine is idling on petrol what numbers does the ball hover around (numbers inside the grid of boxes)? What injectors are selected in software?
'omvl fast' selected

The range of numbers on the map is 171 - 242 At tickover, petrol or lpg, the ball sits on 171


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:11 pm 
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I've had the car off the road for a few weeks to do a little maintenance. I've fitted a cooler running stat to help keep temps down (82 degrees) I replaced the remaining iridium plugs with 'normal' ones because the tips had almost disappeared like the last 3. I couldn't find any wiring issues with the cut injector wires, but I used a spare loom I had to re-do them, and found a neater way to route them so as to avoid heat damage. The plugs all looked a bit too 'white' so must be running a bit too lean for some reason. Hope to get it back on the road in a week or so, fingers crossed it will run ok :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Not necessarily related to your plug issues - A map range of 171 to 242 would usually point to combination of nozzle size and pressure that are too low (because they imply a multiplier of around 1.71 to 2.42 which is far too high for a multiplier). Need for a high multiplier can mean the gas injectors run out of available window at medium high rpm (I've described this before on other threads).. if injectors need to pulse for longer duration than window duration the LPG system can't possibly put enough gas in to provide rich enough mixture so the engine can only run lean under those conditions. However, for the window effect to apply to your system your OMVL ECU would have to be very old because even early OMVL ECU's automatically switch back to petrol when calculated injector pulse duration exceeds window.

Does the engine lose any coolant?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:03 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Not necessarily related to your plug issues - A map range of 171 to 242 would usually point to combination of nozzle size and pressure that are too low (because they imply a multiplier of around 1.71 to 2.42 which is far too high for a multiplier). Need for a high multiplier can mean the gas injectors run out of available window at medium high rpm (I've described this before on other threads).. if injectors need to pulse for longer duration than window duration the LPG system can't possibly put enough gas in to provide rich enough mixture so the engine can only run lean under those conditions. However, for the window effect to apply to your system your OMVL ECU would have to be very old because even early OMVL ECU's automatically switch back to petrol when calculated injector pulse duration exceeds window.

Does the engine lose any coolant?


The engine doesn't lose any coolant. The ECU is KING, and not very old. Now it's back on the road I've plugged it in and found the following: A very noticeable change when switching off each injector in the software. This happens on every injector. Strange because I've checked through the cut injector wires, and rewired them. The injector check screen shows the injector size to be one click 'too small' I've upped the pressure from 1bar to 1.2 so will see if this makes a difference. By upping the pressure, should I run auto calibration at the new pressure?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:59 pm 
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If the multiplier of 242 provides correct fuelling (for that point on the map) it would suggest you'd need to increase pressure by a high percentage but depending on what point on the map the 242 figure is at it is probably likely to suggest you need to increase nozzle size. I forget (if it's even been said) what reducer you have but most reducers don't have pressure adjustable over a wide enough range for it to be likely you'd to be able to compensate adequately via pressure adjustment alone to bring multiplier of 242 down to a 'normal' figure... not unless you're going from something like 0.9 bar to 1.6 bar and the 242 map figure was for a point close to something like 4ms pinj. What did you increase pressure from / to? At what pinj is the 242 figure and are you sure the 242 at that pinj provides correct fuelling (and actual pressure isn't higher than reference pressure)?

Sometimes, some engines, especially V6's fitted with certain LPG ECU's, don't like to run on some cylinders on petrol at the same time as some cylinders on LPG. With other LPG ECU's the same engine might run very smoothly doing the same... but we don't need to get into that lol.

Yes you should run autocal at the new pressure. Then a full manual cal, then see what numbers are in your map.

Would be handy to see your existing/old map and your new map at the higher pressure... If maps are something like correct I'll be able to read a lot into them and the differences between them and be able to advise in more in-depth.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:46 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
If the multiplier of 242 provides correct fuelling (for that point on the map) it would suggest you'd need to increase pressure by a high percentage but depending on what point on the map the 242 figure is at it is probably likely to suggest you need to increase nozzle size. I forget (if it's even been said) what reducer you have but most reducers don't have pressure adjustable over a wide enough range for it to be likely you'd to be able to compensate adequately via pressure adjustment alone to bring multiplier of 242 down to a 'normal' figure... not unless you're going from something like 0.9 bar to 1.6 bar and the 242 map figure was for a point close to something like 4ms pinj. What did you increase pressure from / to? At what pinj is the 242 figure and are you sure the 242 at that pinj provides correct fuelling (and actual pressure isn't higher than reference pressure)?

Sometimes, some engines, especially V6's fitted with certain LPG ECU's, don't like to run on some cylinders on petrol at the same time as some cylinders on LPG. With other LPG ECU's the same engine might run very smoothly doing the same... but we don't need to get into that lol.

Yes you should run autocal at the new pressure. Then a full manual cal, then see what numbers are in your map.

Would be handy to see your existing/old map and your new map at the higher pressure... If maps are something like correct I'll be able to read a lot into them and the differences between them and be able to advise in more in-depth.


Not sure if I'm doing this correctly, but finding the manual calibration very tricky! It's incredibly hard to keep the car at a constant rpm and constant load while reading the figures, then switching to gas and re-reading the figures, then trying to work out a percentage to add to the map. Is this often done on a rolling road, where traffic isn't such an issue? In the end, we just added either 5% or 10% to the figures diagonally down the map where the ball tended to spend most of its time. Before the autocalibration I upped the magicjet reducer pressure from 1 bar to 1.2, and after adding the percentages mentioned above the map now ranges from 127 - 185. Does this seem more realistic? The 'injectors check' slider is now much better, right in the middle of 'correct' :-)


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