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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Hi Guys,
SAAB 9000 2.3 turbo. I bought this car in 2011 with the lpg already fitted. I've used it as a daily driver since 2013 and have had no trouble with the lpg.
About six months ago it would occasionally not change over to lpg. It has now failed to change every time.

I have disconnected the gas pipes from the reducers (2 off) and remotely energised the solenoids. Gas emerged from the pipes under pressure.
I connected a lamp across the solenoids, visible from inside the car, and road tested it. The light illuminated at change over and went out on returning to petrol.
I overhauled the reducers (Landi Li-02). There was nothing apparently wrong but I changed the diaphragms anyway.
I replaced the filter.
After reassembly I tested it ...just the same.

I now thinking it could be the MAP sensor (Bosch 0 281 002 456). The cheapest I can find is £48. Is there anyway of testing this before I go for it.
Any help you can provide will be most appreciated.

Kind regards,
Rod


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Any idea which Landi ECU its using?

Getting a lead and the software looking at what its either saying as far as the readings show (you would be able to see the value its showing for the map sensor among other things) will give you somewhat of an idea where to start looking. (All the Landi ECUs use the same lead as far as I know, but the software is different).

The temperature sensor can be problematic - if it suspects its too cold due to a broken sensor (or a broken wire to the sensor) it won't switch over, though by the sounds of it you do see it attempt to switch over so its probably not that.

What does the switch lights do? Do you get any beeping from the switch when it tries to switch and fails?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Hi Brian
I did try, not long after I bought it, to connect up and get readings with no success. I will try again.

Start up.
Two steady green fuel gauge lights, one flashing green, one steady yellow.

Change over.
Two steady green fuel gauge lights, one steady green, one steady yellow.
Followed by,
No fuel gauge lights, one steady green, one steady yellow, plus beeping.
Press mute button,
One steady yellow only

It's just occured to me, could it be possible that the fuel gauge isn't working correctly and the gas pressure is too low to energise the pressure switch.
I'll try more gas tomorrow.


Thanks for your help.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:21 pm 
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As Brian says, we could do with knowing which Landi system you have.

The map sensor you mention is probably the car's original (petrol) map sensor, it doesn't have a gas pressure sensor built in and isn't the LPG system's pressure sensor (which could be bad).

When it would run on gas, did it occasionally beep and switch back to petrol at unusual times (not booting it and when there was plenty of gas in the tank)?

Did the problem occur just after you'd had a flat or disconnected battery?

Simon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:15 pm 
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If its beeping its detecting an error - the error could be anything really. If you use the wrong software it just will not work - Omegas will detect the lead provided the lead is working and drivers if its usb are installed correctly. (serial should just work).

First step is identify the ecu - you then will know/can confirm what software your need to use. If you can also confirm the type of lead - a USB one should show up in device manager, note you will need the right lead not just one with a matching plug! (KME and others use the same plug, but different pinout on the plug). If its in device manager set it to a low numbered com port (4 or below as long as nothing else is using that number - 1/2/3 or 4 should be fine)

The solid yellow light is showing its on petrol only (as you've used the switch to tell it to do so to shut up the non-stop beeping - one of the most annoying features i've known, as you switch it to petrol to shut it up when you have run out, only to forget to switch it back to gas when you've refilled!)

It could be detecting an injector error - that will cause it to fail, may be as simple as reseating the connectors (probably not a bad idea to do so if you can't get the lead to work at any rate). Beeping i'd suspect isn't the temp sensor, just would expect it to never switch if it wasn't working. The gas level reading does not matter its not taken into account.

If your really struggling then taking some photos of the bits you can find might help and posting them here (upload to another file host and link them - don't use photobucket!)

If its never worked and your new to dealing with LPG it might be best to go to an installer - I'd think possibly chucking your lead/laptop in the car at the same time might give you some answers at any rate, Provided you goto someone sensible - Simon would be one person I'd suggest who isn't too far from you, Dai (Classicsweede) the other installer that is still active on here is probably about the same difference in the other direction as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Hi Simon/Brian,

This is written on the control unit

LSI-NSI
Landi Sequencial Injection
3-4 cylinders
C.O.D. 032800049

MAP sensor is fitted to the end of the gas injector manifold.
I don't think I have ever heard it beep or switch to petrol unless it had run out of gas.
I had to disconnect the battery about six months ago, around the time the problem first started. I can't say for sure which was first.

Hope this helps,
Rod


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:35 pm 
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LSI helps - its not Omegas, What software are you using to connect with?

It should something like LSI NSI 2.2.0?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Our posts crossed Brian

I dont have the software a local guy tried to set it up for me when I first got the car. He's no longer arround.
Is there anywherer in uk I can buy a lead from? I can only find Bulgaria, Ukraine and Lithuania. The last two supply software as well.
I'll download the software when I get it.
I'll sort out photo's tomorrow.

Quote:
If its never worked and your new to dealing with LPG it might be best to go to an installer

I've had the car since 2011. Its never before put a foot wrong.
I am interested in sorting this myself as I have a couple of other cars I'd like to convert. Although I'm not afraid to go for help if I'm stuck.


Goodnight,
Rod


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:35 am 
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WTV are UK based and sell leads with software. I will post a link later today when I get chance to. If you've got a lead then the software can be sorted.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:28 pm 
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http://lpg-kits.com/ is wtv. He has a lead listed for lsi. If you just need software then drop a message back.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:46 pm 
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I fixed a Landirenzo LSI system just the other day. It's map sensor was a combined map and gas pressure sensor remote from the gas injection rail, a strange one but looked very similar to an AEB013. As far as I remember the standard AEB lead works - available from Tinleytech. Software is easy to get hold of, seems Bri has it, or I could upload it to my Dropbox so you could download it from there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Lead arrived today with software. I can't get to try it until Thursday.
Thank you both for all your help. I'll keep you informed as to progress.

Rod


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Well progress of a sort.
Connected laptop and started engine. Water temperature = 0deg.C
Drove arount until it warmed up. No change still won't change over.
Checked water temperature sensor in the reducer pipes. It seems alright 9k ohms down to 5oo ohms ish. when hot.

Why does it change over when there is no change in water temperature? Does it sense the gas temperature?

Test drove again. still 0 deg C, but it works now.
Pressure 1.43bar
Gas injector time 4.63ms
Petrol injector time 2.49ms
Livello 112
Water temperature 0deg.C
Gas temperature 66deg.C
Voltage for gas injectors 13.43 volts

RPM on laptop reads about half of the tacho on the car. Why?

What is "Livello"?

Any suggestions?
I'll check the wiring to the temp sensor when I get the chance.


Great service from WTV, thanks for the suggestion Brian.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Probably wrong type of coil or rpm trigger selected. Do you know if it's at wasted spark type ignition system? Would share q" coil between 2 cylinders.

Temp sensor many work. But the wiring between it land ecu could be at fault? Might be an idea to pop the connector off the ecu and check if it's got wet/corroded?

Livello I think is level sensor in Italian. Or possibly just level?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Thanks Brian.
It's a direct ignition unit peculiar to saabs. It has an output for firing stroke on number one cylinder I think.
I suppose I'm lucky it works at all.
Rod


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:34 pm 
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I'd need to install the software to tell you which setting to look at, can't do that right at the minute as I'm on my phone!.

There should be a wire from the lpg loom connected to the ignition trigger wire somewhere. Usually brown. Any idea where it's connected to?. Alternatively a screenshot of the settings might help with that. What's the changeover threshold set to?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Will this do Brian?

Image

I've noticed the capacity is wrong. Should be 2300.
Also won't the wrong speed upset the map.


Regards,
Rod


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Changing ignition type to single coil should sort out the incorrect reading. But if it was calibrated like that changing the setting could mess up calibration a bit.

Livello definitely points to level sensor reading (between 0 and 255, except you should never see more than maybe 130 if the sensor is working ok). This has nothing to do with your problem.

The water temp reading is most likely the problem, how often does it read 0c?

Simon

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Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:29 pm 
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What I'd suggest before doing anything more is to save the current config if you haven't done so already. once your connected it should be from the f6 option on the front screen.

Otherwise what Simon's said was what i wanted to say earlier, but not the easiest task on the phone. Given you have a changeover temp set to 40 degrees seeing 0 will stop it switching (Don't think it will let you set it lower than 40 on that in any case)

Given its been beeping its detected some sort of error - anything showing up under the diagnosis (f3) tab? Low gas pressure would be logged when the tank gets empty, but anything else might help, though I'd be looking at that temp sensor first.

I do notice that 1600cc and double coil etc are the default settings when i run the software without being connected (i've not got a suitable ecu to connect it to anyway) so I'd double check those are the real settings, you should be able to screenshot with the printscreen key and pasting into mspaint. I don't think you have a selection for the type of temp sensor (its a bit difficult to tell as the software doesn't load properly on windows 10 and a chunk of the top and bottom of the window are off the page


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Hi Simon,

The water temp has always read 0 since i put the laptop on it. Changing over or not changing over.

When it does work it can take a long time before it attempts to change, not so long when it fails.

It looks to me like the wrong speed reeding coupled with the change on acceleration means I have to be doing over 3200 revs and accelerating to make it change.

I'll sort the water temp first then look at the other issues.

Brian.
I'll check the settings tomorrow.

Thank you both for your help.


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