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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:53 am 
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Got a Range Rover fitted with a single point that I'm working on and have a weird problem. It's got a brand new mixer and what looks like an almost new OMVL R90E too. Tried setting it up and at idle everything is as expected, lambda flicking rich/lean and if I adjust the vaporiser pressure the actuator default moves as expected. However, as soon as the throttle is opened it goes ridiculously lean. With the vaporiser set so the idle has a default around 150, the open throttle default is at 245! Having had the bits off I tried energising the tank solenoid and it seems that I'm only getting vapour at the vaporiser. Two causes spring to mind, either it's running low on gas even though both the OMVL Millennium display shows 3 LEDS and the tank gauge agrees with that. Tank gauge also works when I make it work with a magnet. Or, the pickup in the tank has fallen off so it isn't picking up liquid from the bottom of the tank, just vapour from the top. Question is, is there any way of checking this without venting off what could be up to 50 litres of LPG and taking the multivalve out?

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'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Only thing I can think you might get more info from is to uncouple the feed pipe where it exits the tank and then open the valve and see what comes out - if you have liquid there I'd suspect the feed to the front is kinked somewhere along its route?
At least you could then close said valve once you have your answer until you have a plan to fix it if its the tank at fault.

The alternatives would seem to be add more gas to it and see if it takes any (not ideal if you end up taking it out to fix the suspect valvework but would be the quickest answer) or find out how heavy the tank is (which would give you an idea of how much gas once you know how heavy the tank is).]

Could be that the float is stuck and its empty really, The only other way I can see you could isolate the problem to the tank is to feed the vapouriser with LPG from another container to see if it works like that?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:23 pm 
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I must admit, my first thought was that the tank was empty and it had a stuck float so it was empty but saying it wasn't so was going to take it down the road and bung some in . I then realised that I must have had it running for over an hour trying to get it set up right and I can't see the vapour from an empty tank running it for that long. This would mean I'd need to take the multivalve out and the less gas in the tank the better if I was going to do that.

I could prove it by parking my other car next to it and running a pipe from the tank in that one but other than resorting to the Toolless method of a bit of orange barbecue hose, I've got nothing laying around that I could connect the two together with. I think I can find the odd short bit of copper pipe with some fittings so can probably rig up a piece of that straight down through the vent tube and out the bottom of the car to try venting off to see if I get vapour or liquid out of it. It's always possible that there has been some bodgery going on as it's a single hole toroidal tank but the multivalve is at one side so no idea where inside the tank the pickup is sitting.

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'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:44 pm 
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Could well be that someone previously has had it off trying to bend the float arm to get more into the tank and made a mess of it (getting it caught on one of the other bits in the process so it can't drop below the 3/4 mark).

I've found you can do a fair number of miles with very little left in the tank at low rpm, only to have it switch back as soon as you use the throttle a bit more, It will idle in that state for quite a while too.

Might be an idea to try tapping it with a rubber mallet to see if the tank sounds mostly empty or mostly full is the only other idea I've got, maybe Simon or Dai will appear with some suggestions though?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:16 pm 
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I'm on holiday so apologies if I missed any points, I just quickly scanned through this.

Warm summer weather -If you only blipped the tank solenoid perhaps the pipe/gas stayed warm enough to vaporise the liquid gas.. might need to try longer to get gas liquid our the vaporiser end.

Dunno where you bought the R90. These days an R90 isn't always the R90 we expect, there is a 'standard' (note the inverted commas - standard here means lower power rating) version and then there's the R90 of similar spec to what we'd expect. Not even the 'expect' version is as good as the old R90's but should be well on top of the job for a P38 IF it's working properly. 'If' because I have seen a few duff new ones over recent years, some with this type of problem.

If this was a conversation with most other people I'd be telling them to confirm the idle bypass was closed under idle conditions but you'll have done that.

One other aspect of recent model R90's I find is that they're more sensitive on signal at very low loads than at medium/high loads, I have come to expect a low (closed) stepper position at idle if stepper is to be around in the middle at mid/high loads.

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:10 pm 
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I ran gas out of it for a good few seconds in case it was vaporising in the pipe and and was sort of spluttering rather than a jet of liquid. I didn't fit the R90E, it was on the car when I got it but it is very clean and shiny and is the high power 901504 version (incidentally, while everywhere else is showing them as out of stock, this place http://lpggpl.com/product/omvl-single-p ... ouriser-2/ seems to have them in stock, decent price too). The mixer had the venturi missing so I got a new mixer from TT expecting it to all work once that was fitted. My theory was that the R90 had been replaced to try to cure the problems caused by the missing venturi. That's what makes me think there is another problem and a vapour only feed seems the most likely one. I know all about setting the new ones up and know they can be a real pain but this one just doesn't seem to be following usual logic.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Reckon your reasoning makes perfect sense.
Still I might suspect this more of a 'feature' of the R90 rather than tank pickup - Have you tried adjusting sensitivity to near all the way out / maximum?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:35 am 
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That's the only time I can get the lambda to move with an open throttle. At normal type settings the idle default is around 160 but open throttle stays lean even with the actuator at 250, if I adjust the sensitivity out the idle default drops as you'd expect and with it almost fully out I get a default at idle of 130 ish and at open throttle at 245. If I unscrew it any further, the adjuster comes right out. Thinking that someone had been mucking about with the R90, even though it does look new, I took the back off it to make sure the adjuster was doing something and everything looks fine in there and you can see the diaphragm moving in and out as you adjust the sensitivity. The only thing I haven't done yet before venting the tank is to swap the mixer from my car to this one. Mine a 4.0 litre and fitted with a 34mm venturi but the one I got from TT to fit to this 4.6 is a 38mm (which is what they recommended). My logic would say that the slower air speed through a larger venturi would make it lean at idle rather than at open throttle but I've give it a go and see.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:56 pm 
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I think that just about covers it Gilbert.

Simon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:14 pm 
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A result, but not the one that was expected. Before venting off what could have been up to 50 litres of gas, I decided to have a bit of a play. Now my everyday car is a 4.0 litre P38 with a Leonardo controller and R90E feeding a 34mm mixer. This one is a 4.6 litre P38 with a Millennium controller and R90E feeding a 38mm mixer. The mixer came from Tinley Tech and it was the one they recommended for a 4.6 and logic would say that a bigger engine would suck more air so could easily handle a bigger mixer. Not so. Today I took the 34mm mixer off my car and put that on. It's bloody perfect! After a minor tweak, default opening at both idle and 3,000 rpm is around 120 compared with 130 at idle and 245 at 2,000 rpm. Without adjusting the R90E, I had 110 at idle and closing down to about 70 at open throttle. I might be able to get it to run on a 36mm mixer but I think, as I know it will work, I'm going to be going back to TT for another 34mm one. As said, I would have expected a too large venturi to go lean at idle with the lower airspeed, but it seems not. Anyone want a brand new, only fitted once, 38mm Mixer?

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Nice one! I did suspect the 34mm mixer would sort it. Begs the question, though, if you fitted an older R90 with the 38mm mixer on the 4.6, would it work OK (difference between old and new spec R90's).

Probably not relevant here, and I don't know what mixer you fitted... but there is a difference in 'signal' between slimline mixers and full size mixers, you can usually go a bit wider on the venturi with a full size mixer, so where it's possible to fit full size they can give less of a compromise between signal (for gas flow into the mix) and air flow restriction. i.e. the full size mixers are more efficient.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:14 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Probably not relevant here, and I don't know what mixer you fitted...
This one....... http://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts/ ... -wire-afm/, although not sure why it says for specialist use only. I'll be bunging one of these http://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts/ ... -wire-afm/ on instead. They are a little slimmer than the one I have on mine, but not by that much. In fact, I'd say the actual venturi is the same depth, just the alloy housing is just that little bit longer.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:46 am 
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The length/slimness of the unit seems to have a slight effect on the vac signal to the reducer, which is what I was getting at above with the difference between slimline and full length mixers. I don't claim to fully understand why but guess it involves how the mixers develop the vac signal to the reducer, further guess there's an aspect involving chaotic eddy currents. Maybe that's thinking along the right lines, maybe not, but it's been a well known among installers that for a given venturi diameter a full size mixer needs a bit less reducer sensitivity so to me it seems there's some truths in that. Been a while since I fitted a lot of mixer systems but as an example - on some 4L Jeeps (post 2000 with resonance plenum atop the tbody) it's necessary to fit a slimline mixer, on others (pre 2000 without the plastic plenum, just 90 degree ducting from air filter to tbody) can fit a full size mixer, as memory serves it was the norm (advised by Dai/Classicswede - put you a word in Dai!) at FES OMVL importers to advise a slightly smaller venturi for the slimline mixer. There's still the other half of the equation (the reducer) to consider... Been noted that modern R90s respond differently to older R90s, this seemed to occur at around the same time as OMVL sequential system reducers changed spec, neither type seem as good as the older types especially the OMVL sequential reducers. I think Dai did a thread on the difference between older and newer R90s a while ago.

Edit - I just txted Dai, he'll probably post here.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:59 pm 
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The newer design R90E is a bit of a pain to set up and needs a very delicate touch compared with the older one, but once set, it seems to keep it's settings a lot better. The original one on my P38, and the one on the Classic that I had before, were the older type and setting them up was fairly easy. A turn on the bias screw one way or the other had an affect but not much so making fine adjustments easy. But they did need a regular tweak when the little yellow LED started to flash to show the Leo had flagged an error. When I replaced the one on my current car, I had a hell of a job getting it right as a quarter turn had it whistling from one end of the scale to the other. Once set up though, I haven't had to touch it in 3 years now though.

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Sorted. Picked up a 34mm mixer from TT today, fitted it, gave the R90E a tweak with the laptop connected and I've got a default of 138 with it switching around 10 steps either side of that at idle and right through to 5,000 rpm. According to TT, RPi insist on only fitting the 38mm mixer on their grossly overpriced Leonardo system. I wonder how well they run?

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 am 
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Gilbertd wrote:
Sorted. Picked up a 34mm mixer from TT today, fitted it, gave the R90E a tweak with the laptop connected and I've got a default of 138 with it switching around 10 steps either side of that at idle and right through to 5,000 rpm. According to TT, RPi insist on only fitting the 38mm mixer on their grossly overpriced Leonardo system. I wonder how well they run?


Back when FES imported R90's, mixers and Milleniums (for other people's benefit Milleniums are just the same AEB175 as Leonardos) I used to list P38 DIY kits on Ebay including my full tech support and free calibration etc for vastly cheaper than RPI's price. I also used to list sequential systems on Ebay (with my same level of service) for a lower price than RPI's mixer system... And I included RPI's Ebay listing numbers in my Ebay listings so customers could easily compare the difference in value. They moaned about this to Nick at FES, told FES I wasn't selling the same stuff causing Nick to phone me to ask if I was selling the same stuff... Of course I was and Nick knew it because FES supplied both me and RPI.

RPI buyers who went on to read their small print could look forward to shelling out hundreds of pounds on top of their already massively inflated prices... Their smallprint advised fitting another chip in the ECU, Magnecor leads and K&N air-filter to prevent backfires. The K&N would actually increase the number of backfires but would at least be less likely to be blown apart from a backfire. They also offered the sequential OMVL Dream system at massively inflated prices... when FES stopped supplying they continued with Dream from other suppliers, along with the odd King ECU with same OMVL Dream reducer and SL injectors, same chip filter and leads advice in the small print. Stevie Wonder apparently employed for in-house installation and/or calibration which again they charged massively over the odds for. All still ongoing, except now it seems they include at least the leads and K&N in the mixer system price.

Off subject a bit but if you fancy a chuckle, phone Central Garage and tell them you're considering buying a P38 to convert to LPG. Apparently only some V8 P38s can be converted properly depending on what numbers are on one of the vehicle's tag plates 'sir'...

_________________
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Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
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2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240


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