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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:56 am 
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I'm posting this on behalf of a member on the UK Legacy Owners Club, as they're unable to create a new user account on here.
The car in question is a Japanese import 2004 Subaru Legacy GT Spec B. That's a 2.0 twinscroll turbo four cylinder boxer 280bhp engine.

It's been converted by a reasonably competant BRC installer it seems, and BRC themselves do appear to be involved in trying to resolve the issues. However any extra information that might help his installer get it sorted from people with a more general LPG system background might be helpful. To our knowledge there's only one other GT Spec B with a BRC Sequent in the UK, and BRC have tried using the map from that on this car - however that other car has issues too.

Apparently he was going to take it to Simon for conversion, but they couldn't settle on a suitable date and then his clutch failed to had to put it on hold.

Anyway - here's some information from the owner:

Quote:
On part or sudden throttle inputs in the lower gears the car sometimes 'jumps' then starts pulling; as if there is some sort of delay in getting gas into the car?
Low speed running can sometimes be a bit 'chuggy' for want of a better word and parking can prone to stalling. Idle is ok but I have a feeling it might be a bit low.
The car generally feel a lot more hesitant on gas (Even though in theory it should be fine as it is a higher octane than petrol in my mind) running on petrol is certainly a lot smoother; not how the install was sold to me and certainly not reflective of the price.

When the put the car onto gas it threw a CEL. I don't know a huge amount about injectors but it was actually me that suggested it was because the injectors were not receiving the inductive/resistive loads they expected to see (The BRC ECU emulates a resistive load) and they said they'd need to investigate. Having looked at the module they fitted it appears I was right.

Small update; managed to get back in touch with the installer and spend some more time trying to setup the car; it appears the Tip-In settings we leaning out the car quite a bit under closed loop conditions. Open loop the car actually seemed to run a lot better once you were up to motorway speeds but lower speeds were rather unusable. We've adjusted this down from 60% to 40% and fiddled in between and believe this is the sweet spot. As such the car now runs a lot better in closed loop conditions and runs very close to petrol in open loop conditions. Looking at the fine tuning graph the red/green dots overlap each other perfectly when pottering around and on the odd occasiona where it's been opened up for a split second.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:06 am 
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I don't remember if some later Subaru's need a fuel return, or if that would apply to a 2004 model...

If injectors are a rail of 4 as is usual with BRC, pipe lengths to spuds will be long on the flat 4. This usually has more of a negative effect at low rpms than at high rpms but can be detrimental to drive-ability, especially on a turbo, at any rpm.

Does this Subaru have the 'extra throttle flaps near the intake valves' setup that helps with throttle response? If so it is necessary to fit spuds below those flaps.

Tip in/out settings are similar to acceleration/deceleration enrichment/leaning, ideally not employed.

BRC Sequent could mean Sequent/24/24MY07/56, etc. There are some key differences in terms of calibration abilities and how they're set up - Pre MY07 Seq24 systems are not capable of sequential fuel changeover and wiring is unusual, pre Seq56 systems only have manifold pressure sensor connected during calibration during which time the system learns gas pressure versus manifold pressure versus Pinj etc, then the manifold pressure sensor is disconnected.. Would struggle to get any re-calibration based on incorrect original manifold pressure readings correct - so for complete re-calibration of pre56 the installer must have and use the manifold pressure sensor, rather than assume some supplied file contains correct data. In addition, supplied files contain injection methodology data with certain functions (e.g. extra injection filtering) pre-configured/enabled/disabled. Seq56 is better, Plug N Drive better still. Older spec systems generally a fair bit cheaper than the more recent BRC stuff and not always as appropriate for modern/demanding engines. With BRC, injectors with correct spec must be chosen from the outset as you can't change nozzles etc on BRC injectors... and when selecting injectors you cannot always go on charts which suggest an injector spec based purely on bhp per cylinder. 280Bhp will need BRC's big reducer.

I don't remember being unable to arrange a conversion date for a Subaru turbo. I don't often fit BRC and would have advised a different system but if the customer still wanted BRC I would have advised Plug N Drive, or maybe we could have come to some arrangement where I first tried one of the second hand Sequent24/56 systems I have on the shelf here. If I'd converted it there would be no issues but it's a bit late for that.. Still, if it comes here I'll definitely identify the issues - and sort it if possible given fitted components, or advise different components in which case would sort it for sure if tasked with doing so.

The LPG bits I fitted on your car would give excellent results on this car if fitted and calibrated correctly Rich :lol:

Simon

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:30 am 
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Cheers Simon - I'll pass that on.

There is a fuel return as far as I know on this engine, it's effectively the same as the older 2.0 turbo in Imprezas/Foresters etc, but with a twinscroll turbo and variable valve timing etc that were introduced in 2003. Not sure about the manifold swirl flaps though, I'll find out.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Here's his reply:

It's a Sequent 32 system (Apparently it's quite new) I'm not sure regarding the head/flaps but the injectors are split; 2 next to one bank of cylinders and 2 next to the other. The injector piping is very short and the injectors are very low in the intake manifold (As near as you can get without being in the head if you like) it certainly looks like the correct components are installed (The reducer is a bit of a beast and the injectors are the right type) so I am hoping what I have now is just a little bit of setup to be done.
Interested to know if he can troubleshoot the newer '32 as the software is an improved installer only jobbie.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:08 pm 
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No probs Rich.

I'm not a BRC UK approved installer but they did allow me access to their installers area/downloads etc on the basis of me knowing my stuff. But I just tried visiting their downloads page and it seems I've been removed from the list of authorised people... I'm guessing that's because I haven't bought anything from them for a while or logged in for a while, so I've emailed BRC Ben to ask for my account to be re-instated and told him about this discussion..

I've sorted a lot of BRC installs, including in situations like this (where several have tried already), if the car comes here I'd much rather attempt to sort it using already fitted components than remove the system and fit a different system that I know will deliver excellent results, but to sort it using existing components I'd need the software...

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:00 am 
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I've advised him to get in touch with you if he gets no luck from his local BRC installer - who to be fair does seem to be making a reasonable effort.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:19 am 
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Ben replied he'll ask BRC's Pete to set up a new account for me, I may have been unable to log in to their downloads page due to website reorganisation.

Wouldn't doubt the installer's or importer's intentions on sorting the problem but there would have been a way of avoiding the problem. I don't think I've been booked up more than 3 weeks in advance this year ;)

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:16 pm 
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Ben set up a new user account on BRCGB's website for me (thanks Ben), the software is fairly unique for BRC in requiring a licence file... I have emailed the unique 'activation code' generated by the software on my computer (probably mac address/windows licence referenced) to Ben and BRC sales, now I hope to receive a licence file...

Simon

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Last edited by LPGC on Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:42 am 
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To me it sounds typical of incorrectly positioned manifold nozzles. These are a very fussy engine in that respect and the running problems are typical of that

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:42 am 
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Hi Dai, I thought that too but Rich says spuds are as low as they could go.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:01 pm 
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I still think they are too far up

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:45 am 
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I'll ask him if he can take some photos.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:35 pm 
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Simon - I see you've replied on the UK Legacy forums. Hopefully he'll be in touch with you directly either on there or by phone.

Apologies for not anwering your call last night - I was out and had left my phone at home!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:11 pm 
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No probs Rich, call was to see if there were any further developments or info and to suggest installers look at pressure if they haven't already been through that. Seems an obvious point but lots of installs I see using certain brands of system seem to have paid little regard to pressure or ging versus pinj.

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:39 pm 
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I'm still waiting to hear from BRC's Peter about the software license, though BRC's Ben has implied Peter will send me one and I emailed them a reminder. Good job I haven't been holding my breath :roll:

Simon

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:23 am 
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It seems to have gone quiet on the Legacy forums too anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:05 am 
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Yes, I had a quick look last night. Maybe it's been sorted...

I'm still after the software though!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:02 pm 
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My email to BRC Ben wrote:
I very much appreciate your sending me the license file.

Perhaps unfortunately it hasn't seemed to work but so far I have only tried clicking 'Load licence file' and pointing the program to the file you sent me which was in my downloads folder. I revisited your website to see if there were any different instructions and read the message to call Peter. If I haven't heard from you before, I'll call Peter on the number in the website message tomorrow... I suppose either the license file is a dud or Pete will give further instruction on installing it properly.

Regards... etc etc


Simon

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:20 pm 
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I tried to phone BRC's Peter a few times today but nobody picked the phone up. Ben emailed soon after my last call attempt to say they've had a few issues with the license code not working unless Peter himself somehow applies the license code by using remote access to installers computers via Teamviewer...

I'm afraid at this rate, if other installers were in a similar position to myself, the above in itself would account for the vehicle being sat at the installers for a week without much being possible to put the LPG system right. But I suppose the original installer must have had the software up and running to be able to get the car at least running on LPG. The delay may be a one-off in my case, and I can understand being put to the back of the que because I'm not a member of BRCGB, just rather good at sorting LPG issues out.

Simon

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:23 pm 
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It seems a bit odd - maybe there's some weird procedure that has to be carried out but it's never the same twice so not been written down yet!

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