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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:28 am 
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Hi There,

I got a Volvo S90 with Prins VSI LPG system.

not sure if relevant but ill paint the whole story:

Been driving this car for over 2 years with no problems untill a few months ago.
It started out with a inconsitend idle when in drive while having my foot on the break (stoplights)

It comes and goes and usually when then car is warm the inconsitend idle goes away. One day the car would ony drive on petrol. i managed to figure out that this was the cutoff valve and replaced it. direcly did a stage 0 on the engine. this was about 1 month ago.

All problems seem to be gone... however new problems have risen. When i take corners or hit a speedbump at a specici angle the car switched back to petrol. on long straight roads it usally stays in LPG but very few times when under load it will also switch back to petrol.

I bought a Prins VSI diagnose cable from some poland people and ran diagnostics, there are no error codes to be found.
I tried recreating the problem corners on my driveway and managed to get it switched back to petrol. the statatics show a drop in LPG pressure before cutting out/ switching over.

I also feel that the power from the engine has decreesed on LPG over the last year.. idea's on where to start? I have no spare PRINS VSI stuff but i do have a complete STAG 300 here (i have stolen the cutoff valve from this set too, it swaped right over so who knows)

Clogged Filter?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:43 pm 
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The inconsistent idle with cooler engine might not be related, that could just be due to spark plugs/ignition, how the system is calibrated/setup (including changeover temperature), where injector outlets are in the manifold, failing lambda probes (which don't work properly until thoroughly heated). Though under bonnet / component temperature can effect already temperamental components (like dodgy valves/injectors) or electrical connections. If the reducer doesn't get enough hot water flow through it at idle then it could switch back due to detecting the cool reducer temperature - in which case it might get colder quicker now the weather is getting colder.

Components and connections are not temperamental when in good condition, can become temperamental if damaged/broken or due to wear and tear etc. Going over speed bumps could also effect temperamental components / connections, including the main power feed from the battery, fuses and earth connections. On speed bump point worth mentioning fuel slosh with low tank level could cause vapour pickup instead of liquid pickup from tank, thus causing switch back to petrol, but shouldn't be the case with enough gas in the tank. Solenoids (and the coils on them) can be effected by knocks / road bumps, you've already been into one of those, there's the one on the tank and one on the reducer. Have known Prins injector modules (small black box connected to VSI ECU) to have intermittent fault that can be brought on/cured when knocked but such fault usually brings on misfires rather than causing change back to petrol.

How did you recreate the low pressure problem on driveway? The answer stands a good chance of pointing to a problem.

Unlikely any parts from the Stag system could serve as replacement for equivalent Prins components.

Clogged filter is unlikely to be the cause - filter issues are very uncommon anyway and would expect filter issues to be most evident when most gas is flowing (foot down) rather than when going over speed bumps or on your driveway. But have known Prins solenoid filters to become clogged - If this were the case then due to the nature of your problems would expect the clog to be moving around in the solenoid filter housing, obscuring flow over bumps, something you could check for though unlikely to be the cause.

You have the tuning lead and software, in parameters you should be able to see the pressure which the installer set as working pressure and compare this to the actual pressure reading. Actual read pressure should equal the working pressure setting, you can adjust the reducer (allen key middle front reducer) to achieve that. This could be the cure-all or might not have any effect but this is a good place to start. Don't try achieving equal pressure readings the other way around by adjusting the working (nominal) pressure setting in software to equal actual pressure reading, as that would definitely mess up the system calibration (presuming calibration is correct). Would expect the Prins system to log 'pressure too low/high at idle' errors if actual pressure was far from setting pressure but pressure control spring in Prins reducers does go soft over time leading to lower pressure than the original installer set (allen key re-adjustment can usually fully account for this, no need to change the spring).

If the check engine light is on then essentially the engine could be running in open loop mode, which could cause low peak power and drive-ability/smoothness problems particularly when running on LPG.

I noticed your raceteam signature only now so apologies for anything that reads like a lesson on sucking eggs. Assuming a race driver is likely to notice a difference in power - point you back to the points on clogged filters possibly effecting top end power but not affecting idle, engine ignition and sensor points, could have a dodgy LPG injector... Dodgy Keihin injectors often caused when lube systems that inject fluid in the gas feed to injectors are fitted but this wouldn't cause switch back to petrol in itself. The Prins system may detect a fault (that causes it to switch back to petrol) in the event the petrol system cuts off fuelling to a cylinder (like it might do if it detects a misfire on that cylinder), but if this occurs would expect a fault to be logged by the Prins ECU.

Above assumes this is an old type 1990's S90, or the Prins VSI system wouldn't be suitable and you wouldn't have had the car 2 years, new type not been made that long!

Into your Volvo's so probably know Classicswede?

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:03 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
The inconsistent idle with cooler engine might not be related, that could just be due to spark plugs/ignition, how the system is calibrated/setup (including changeover temperature), where injector outlets are in the manifold, failing lambda probes (which don't work properly until thoroughly heated). Though under bonnet / component temperature can effect already temperamental components (like dodgy valves/injectors) or electrical connections. If the reducer doesn't get enough hot water flow through it at idle then it could switch back due to detecting the cool reducer temperature - in which case it might get colder quicker now the weather is getting colder.


it took me a while to get all the proper answers to the questions. Here we go.

How the engine is now wired up:
Image

Some wiring insulation has degraded at this point. I have replaced the fuses for a propper set with connectors. i could revisit this fix for connections



LPGC wrote:
Components and connections are not temperamental when in good condition, can become temperamental if damaged/broken or due to wear and tear etc. Going over speed bumps could also effect temperamental components / connections, including the main power feed from the battery, fuses and earth connections. On speed bump point worth mentioning fuel slosh with low tank level could cause vapour pickup instead of liquid pickup from tank, thus causing switch back to petrol, but shouldn't be the case with enough gas in the tank. Solenoids (and the coils on them) can be effected by knocks / road bumps, you've already been into one of those, there's the one on the tank and one on the reducer. Have known Prins injector modules (small black box connected to VSI ECU) to have intermittent fault that can be brought on/cured when knocked but such fault usually brings on misfires rather than causing change back to petrol.


I have suspected the injector modules before. the local LPG guy pointed out to me too that these can fail at times, but i would heve suspected a error code on it

LPGC wrote:
How did you recreate the low pressure problem on driveway? The answer stands a good chance of pointing to a problem.


Driving a small point and steering fast to the right, not the best idea but it did "work" getting the system to respond like it does on fast rights.. by switching over

LPGC wrote:
Unlikely any parts from the Stag system could serve as replacement for equivalent Prins components.


Dam

LPGC wrote:
Clogged filter is unlikely to be the cause - filter issues are very uncommon anyway and would expect filter issues to be most evident when most gas is flowing (foot down) rather than when going over speed bumps or on your driveway. But have known Prins solenoid filters to become clogged - If this were the case then due to the nature of your problems would expect the clog to be moving around in the solenoid filter housing, obscuring flow over bumps, something you could check for though unlikely to be the cause.


I can open this thing up and check the filter? i saw in the PRINS manual that it needs replacing around 25K. I must have driven around this or more at this point so by the book it would be needed to replace.. but it does not point this way for my problems?

LPGC wrote:
You have the tuning lead and software, in parameters you should be able to see the pressure which the installer set as working pressure and compare this to the actual pressure reading. Actual read pressure should equal the working pressure setting, you can adjust the reducer (allen key middle front reducer) to achieve that. This could be the cure-all or might not have any effect but this is a good place to start. Don't try achieving equal pressure readings the other way around by adjusting the working (nominal) pressure setting in software to equal actual pressure reading, as that would definitely mess up the system calibration (presuming calibration is correct). Would expect the Prins system to log 'pressure too low/high at idle' errors if actual pressure was far from setting pressure but pressure control spring in Prins reducers does go soft over time leading to lower pressure than the original installer set (allen key re-adjustment can usually fully account for this, no need to change the spring).


So i should hook up the software and start turning the reducer, keep away from chaning parameters


LPGC wrote:
If the check engine light is on then essentially the engine could be running in open loop mode, which could cause low peak power and drive-ability/smoothness problems particularly when running on LPG.


Check enginelight? does the PRINS system have this our your reffering to the check enginelight of the car. thats not on


LPGC wrote:
I noticed your raceteam signature only now so apologies for anything that reads like a lesson on sucking eggs. Assuming a race driver is likely to notice a difference in power - point you back to the points on clogged filters possibly effecting top end power but not affecting idle, engine ignition and sensor points, could have a dodgy LPG injector... Dodgy Keihin injectors often caused when lube systems that inject fluid in the gas feed to injectors are fitted but this wouldn't cause switch back to petrol in itself. The Prins system may detect a fault (that causes it to switch back to petrol) in the event the petrol system cuts off fuelling to a cylinder (like it might do if it detects a misfire on that cylinder), but if this occurs would expect a fault to be logged by the Prins ECU.


I love the way you took the time to describe it to me. I do race and build and maintain my racers but there is tons of stuff i know or will ever know. so no hard feelings at all!

Regarding the rest, again with the injectors i would expect a code to be trown.



LPGC wrote:
Above assumes this is an old type 1990's S90, or the Prins VSI system wouldn't be suitable and you wouldn't have had the car 2 years, new type not been made that long!

Into your Volvo's so probably know Classicswede?

Simon


Yep its a S90 classic from 98 ;-) And yes i know Classicswede. I have a bunch of stuff from him on my race car

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:07 am 
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Prins system error reporting isn't very thorough, wouldn't expect the Prins system to generate an error code for most problems associated with injector modules, injectors, solenoids. Prins doesn't have a MIL light but errors that it records can be read using VSI software, I was referring to the usual vehicle MIL light.

You can open up the liquid filter housing, the one that's in the feed from the tank to the reducer, this is often directly mounted on the reducer or mounted just a short distance from the reducer in the engine bay. If a filter is a problem it is far more likely to be this liquid filter than the vapour filter which is in the pipe between reducer and injectors, the vapour filter may be a sealed unit anyway - if there's a bolt through it the bolt may just attach the LPG pressure sensor. The Prins liquid filter solenoid has been known to gum up.

Could be worth looking at tank orientation if the fault generally occurs with low tank level during sharp right turns - If the tank's fuel pickup pipe is on the right side of the tank then during sharp right turns fuel slosh may leave the pickup pipe above liquid fuel level (the reducer needs a feed of liquid LPG from the tank). Sharp right turns and knocks could also effect intermittent wiring problems, electronics internal of the VSI ECU or injector modules, could force a gummed/sticking liquid filter solenoid to close and shut off flow of gas to the reducer. I have known many Prins injector modules with intermittent problem that could be brought on or cured just by tapping the module.

Yes I would connect a laptop and check/set reducer pressure to the normal/working pressure configured in software. It would be unusual for knocks/turns to effect reducer pressure and if pressure is already a bit too low would expect the system to have stored a 'pressure too low at idle' error (vehicle would still run on LPG with this error), but worth checking.

Dai gets on this forum from time to time, same name Classicswede... I'll tell him about this thread.

Simon

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:00 am 
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Did you only change the solenoid coil or the whole unit? I asume only the coil.

I would first try taking the solenoid post off and clean the piston inside. I would also run some injector cleaner through the injectors to make sure they are clean and nothing is stopping them from opening correctly.

That is all part of dong a service on the LPG system but often does not get done. It should help with teh cold running and could also solve the switch back to petrol but it does sound more like a loose connection

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:58 pm 
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LPGC wrote:
Prins system error reporting isn't very thorough, wouldn't expect the Prins system to generate an error code for most problems associated with injector modules, injectors, solenoids. Prins doesn't have a MIL light but errors that it records can be read using VSI software, I was referring to the usual vehicle MIL light.

You can open up the liquid filter housing, the one that's in the feed from the tank to the reducer, this is often directly mounted on the reducer or mounted just a short distance from the reducer in the engine bay. If a filter is a problem it is far more likely to be this liquid filter than the vapour filter which is in the pipe between reducer and injectors, the vapour filter may be a sealed unit anyway - if there's a bolt through it the bolt may just attach the LPG pressure sensor. The Prins liquid filter solenoid has been known to gum up.

Could be worth looking at tank orientation if the fault generally occurs with low tank level during sharp right turns - If the tank's fuel pickup pipe is on the right side of the tank then during sharp right turns fuel slosh may leave the pickup pipe above liquid fuel level (the reducer needs a feed of liquid LPG from the tank). Sharp right turns and knocks could also effect intermittent wiring problems, electronics internal of the VSI ECU or injector modules, could force a gummed/sticking liquid filter solenoid to close and shut off flow of gas to the reducer. I have known many Prins injector modules with intermittent problem that could be brought on or cured just by tapping the module.

Yes I would connect a laptop and check/set reducer pressure to the normal/working pressure configured in software. It would be unusual for knocks/turns to effect reducer pressure and if pressure is already a bit too low would expect the system to have stored a 'pressure too low at idle' error (vehicle would still run on LPG with this error), but worth checking.

Dai gets on this forum from time to time, same name Classicswede... I'll tell him about this thread.

Simon


I have the software and no error codes. i have checked bot the filter on the reducer and on one between the injectors.
The one near the injectors looks dirty enough to give some trouble, it a can be cleaned with brakedisk cleaner (LPG shop told me)

<a href="http://imgur.com/Lcg9zld"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Lcg9zldm.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
<a href="http://imgur.com/0EoQXTq"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/0EoQXTqm.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

also a photo of the tank orientation, not sure what i can say about this
<a href="http://imgur.com/9Uk9GYO"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/9Uk9GYOm.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>


I wanted to have the car fixed before my holiday to Germany and i did not had enough time to fix it so i took the car to the garage/LPG installer for the first time in my life. The guy spend 4 days driving around with my car and could not replicate my problem nor did it gave any codes. The only time the car stopped working while backing up into a parkingspot.

He did notice that the temperature did not get up high and pointed out that it was ether the reducer failing or the thermostat.
So i got the car back with no step further. thankfully i did not had to pay for it.

I took the ride to Germany one day later and hoped for the best. The ride went fine but one thing became clear when entering the hill of the Eifel. The LPG installation can have real problems generating power going uphills, some serious power loss at some point. It can deliver power fine the one moment and the other it will hesitate.

When i got home i replaced the thermostat, no change to behavior.

Germany got me thinking.

* Car can cut out in corners
* Car can cut out when backing up

Both situations make the power steering work for its money having, load on engine

* Car can hesitate going uphills in Germany (remember Netherlands is flat!)

You can conclude that there can be at times problems with the installation delivering load while on LPG, Petrol is fine.

I got a strong feeling that it has to be the reducer failing, it has a ton of miles on it. The cutting out in corners might be a result of that or might be an unrelated problem in the wiring. So considering this i think i should at least invest on the reducer. Should i rebuild it or is it better to get a replacement, and where can i source one for the best price?



classicswede wrote:
Did you only change the solenoid coil or the whole unit? I asume only the coil.

I would first try taking the solenoid post off and clean the piston inside. I would also run some injector cleaner through the injectors to make sure they are clean and nothing is stopping them from opening correctly.

That is all part of dong a service on the LPG system but often does not get done. It should help with teh cold running and could also solve the switch back to petrol but it does sound more like a loose connection


I only swaped over the solenoid, not the whole unit. i should look into cleaning the unit then.

I have read about injector cleaner but how do you clean LPG injectors with a fluid you have to put into the Petrol tank.. this does not reach my LPG injectors or do they?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:03 am 
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Video of car switing to petrol
https://youtu.be/8Ms364FLo-w

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:41 am 
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This morning driving to work the LPG installation kept switching over to petrol the whole ride (around 20 minutes).
The last 10 minutes the sound would come on of empty tank. even with 3 lights left. Went to the gas stationed and filled up the 20 liters of the 60 liter tank.. so there was more than plenty in the tank left.

Its really starting to get on my nerves

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:29 am 
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The injector cleaner goes into the lpg vapour pipes.

Another thought. Take a look at the cable going to the switch. Is it possible the cable is rubbing on the steering causing the problem?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:07 am 
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classicswede wrote:
The injector cleaner goes into the lpg vapour pipes.

Another thought. Take a look at the cable going to the switch. Is it possible the cable is rubbing on the steering causing the problem?


good idea, i'll look into that.
That wont be the reason for the lack of power in the hills though?

Meanwhile i was looking into sites for parts, anyone knows this supplier?
http://enerma.pl/en/search?orderby=posi ... it_search=

They have one of the best prices for Prins stuff , Made in netherlands but cheaper to import :lol: typical

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:09 pm 
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The two problems may or may not be related. The cutting out sounds more of an electrical problem than anything but does not have to be.

Poland is usually the cheapest place for parts. Just pay by a means that you can recover the money should you need to

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:52 am 
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I was reading the installation manual of the Prins VSI system and noticed that the ECM ECU had to be installed straight and away from heat. Mine is installed upside down pretty close to the manifold.

I started to fiddle around with the ECU and the wiring and managed to get the car to shut of during that. First I thought it might have been the ECU but when I twisted the wiring twice it seemed that the car kept running even if I tapped and hit the ECU.

Lucky for me it was raining so I could skit around at night doing some cool righthanded drifts.. nothing car ran perfect. This morning I took all the corners on my way to work fast and where it used to cut out it kept running fine.

So I have to diagnose the wiring and the connector to the ECU in particular as It seems to be around there.
Strange thing is that the wireloom is for a 8 cylinder car and has 2 4 cylinder emulators. it would explain the loose wires in the loom I have encountered.

Video of the first diagnosing:
https://youtu.be/D4nX3BEdciQ

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:33 am 
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Aha! Disconnect the harness from the ECU and check all the pins on the ECU looking for any that are discoloured. Any discoloured will be main power pins (feed/earth to ECU, feed to solenoids, etc) - clean them up. If the fault isn't a bad pin connection then you must have disturbed wiring somewhere else, perhaps an earth joint between a couple wires inside the connector plug (plug cover will remove to check). Or you could have disturbed wiring further away from the ECU than would seem obvious, but I think that's doubtful because just tapping the ECU (as you did toward the end of the video) would really only have a very local effect.

Simon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:29 am 
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Been driving around since the last post no issue whatsoever. i'll keep in mind the tips here when it starts acting up. (mater of time im sure) for now I'm just happy its all working :D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:53 am 
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Yes it would seem you disturbed something while moving wiring around etc, though because you haven't yet located or fully addressed the problem it probably doesn't bode well for the problem being solved yet... Did you check the pins?

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