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 Post subject: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:05 pm 
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Hi folks,

I've just completed my install couple weeks ago, it's a Stag Qbox with Hana 2002 injectors. I ran the initial autocalibration and the car drives fine with no problems to speak of. Still, after spending a lot of time researching the hardware/install side of the conversion, I feel now compelled to (at least) attempt to tune it myself to a reasonable level where I can call it a day. I'm after fuel economy foremost, I drive like a granny most of the time. Unless I'm in a hurry :D

After the autocalibration I've manually tweaked the multiplier and it's nearly there. Then I became aware of this thing called 'fuel trims' and I've noticed the values are quite off (pict 1). Found 3 ways to bring them in the right range (pict 2):

1. Auto adaptation. Works very well at least momentarily, but I'm reluctant to leave it on constantly, based on suggestions of experienced installers on this forum.

2. Flow correction. An increase of 7% across all injectors also brings the trims in the right range. Incidentally, there is this option called 'flow test' which apparently tests all injectors for flow and comes up with values for each injector. Some injectors can be on 0% correction, others as high as 16% which I found odd. Also not consistent from one test to the next, so I've disregarded that test.

3. Moving all points of the multiplier up 5-6 steps. But wouldn't that offset my curve quite a bit?

Which is the correct way to do this?

On a general note, what makes a system 'tuned'? What are the indicators and what is the range to aim for?


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:25 pm 
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Done a bit of research and seen the threads where experienced pros (ie myself) wrote about problems developing from leaving autotune systems active too long.. But seem to have missed the threads where I mentioned I sell DIY kits that come with my tech support? But the place you bought the kit from said they include tech support... so no problem then, all tech support is equal etc... :roll:

You missed the first part of my tech support already (component selection), maybe not components I would have advised for your install but will be workable nonetheless. The next step is to confirm you have a workable nozzle size and pressure combination. Then, tuning in your case without really thorough tech support will probably be best done using autotune. With a good nozzle and pressure combination for your install (using the components you have), autocal will probably say you have too big nozzles at idle (mentioned the difference between autocal and autotune in other threads).

2. Injector flow correction isn't intended as a tuning handle/tool, this is to correct for abnormal individual injector performance and/or to correct bank trims, these settings ideally shouldn't need to be changed from zero (if they do need to be changed it can point to a problem), any change should usually be done at least part way into mapping not before mapping. If you have the same corrective figure for all injectors at the moment, then really you should reset all back to zero and the adjustment should be done on the multiplier. Most likely there isn't a 16% difference in flow rates between injectors, the discrepancy will be due to you adjusting injectors on different banks while the shape of your map and figures in the map are wrong (point 3).

3. Your curve is likely to be incorrect anyway. Default maps (including shape) assume various aspects about the engine and the petrol fuel system, the assumptions are likely to be incorrect, none seem to get the low load end of the map anything like especially on installs where idle pinj is below 3ms and especially with certain types of injector...

I sorted an install this morning, an ML55AMG that was a pro installer's own vehicle before the current owner bought it from him. Reckon the pro will have believed he'd done the best install possible on the car - aftermarket petrol tank (to allow fitting of 1 of the 2 LPG tanks), modded exhaust (to allow fitting of the other LPG tank), 2 KME Golds, Hana injectors, timing advance processor, etc. But the phrase 'a bit of knowledge can be a wonderful thing' comes to mind, he may have bought into the hype about components etc without knowing real world specs of components or how to get the best from them, and then seemingly didn't consider how temp correction will lower ping when setting it up... Anyway, shortly after buying the vehicle the new owner found it was misfiring etc and the pro advised him to reset the ECU. The pro probably meant reset the Stag's autotuning figures in the rpm compensation boxes but the new owner simply reset the ECU... and found it ran a whole lot better even with the default (wildly incorrect) settings for injector type, working pressure and with no mapping done whatsoever (just the default flat multiplier line)! After the reset it surprisingly ran OK, just occasionally put the MIL on (due to fuel trim issues) even with maxed out positive fuel trims and even lean running through the load range.

Even with correct injectors and pressure selected in software, autocal (on the ML55AMG) wouldn't get the shape of the map correct on an install with Hana's where idle pinj is 2.5ms. You should fare a bit better on your install where Pinj at idle is likely to be a bit higher than 2.5ms (maybe 2.8ms on the BMW - after you reset any codes due to fuelling issues brought on by running on LPG with dodgy calibration and after the BMW has re-passed it's IM readiness checks - some Beemers idle differently until then, you don't even get to see the real idle fuel trims until IM readiness has completed). Problem for amateurs can be it takes time to complete IM readiness, will only be passed with a good LPG map or by driving on petrol, you effectively then get a short time window to correct LPG mapping before another Mil error is generated which would call for another code reset and more time waiting for IM readiness to be passed. Not a problem for a pro who can quickly correct the map. If you heed warnings about too big nozzles/pressure etc during autocal you might end up running out of workable gas injector duty cycle at high loads because your pressure and nozzle size might not actually have been too big... But at least heeding such warnings might help you get the idle and mid-range running OK, at the expense of lean mixture at combinations of high rpm and high loads, with less messing than doing a proper job of calibration. I have a term for this type of mapping - 1DayPol type!

Correct mapping should end up with: ginj much the same as pinj with correct mixture at high load high rpm, fuel trims much the same running on LPG as on petrol throughout the rpm/load range, ginj above real world minimum injector pulse duration at minimum load.. All the while regardless of gas temp etc... Due to gas temp compensation, ginj will be lower with cold gas than with warm gas, so it is possible to get seemingly good results with warm gas but then to suffer poor idle and mil issues when ginj goes below minimum real world injector duration spec due to cold gas or if the low end of the map shape is wrong.

When I wrote the above the images didn't seem to work, now I can see them OK. Reckon your engine will run lean at high loads (when fuel trims are not active because the engine is running open loop), reckon it will be rich on over-run. Would anticipate increasing pressure to maybe 1.3 and adjusting map figures/shape with a fall before 3ms.

Any figures in the rpm correction box?
Was this idling in gear (auto) or out of gear with no loads (aircon) etc (manifold pressure of .42 and pinj of 3.5 with only +10% trim)?

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:17 pm 
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Thanks for your thorough response.

The kit was bought from lpgshop.co.uk. It's a Polish outfit, in some ways they're good, in others not so much. They're very helpful when about to make a sale, but they lack the patience needed to deal with first time installers. I did not make a beast of myself by any means, I must have ask for advice about twice in the course of the install and it became obvious they're not much help. They can answer straight forward questions but anything more complicated - half of it gets lost in translation. So asking for advice at this stage would be more hassle than it's worth.

Back to my install. Pardon my ignorance in the first post, but I'm learning as I go along. I set the flow correction back to zero. The picture in the first post shows a graph at idle, gearbox in park, everything electric turned off.

Car is a 520i automatic with the M54 lump, gas injectors have the 120-180bhp nozzles fitted (engine is 167bhp). Gas pressure is set at about 1.05bar in the Stag software. Reducer is KME Silver with default gas pressure, I did not increased nor reduced it). I've got to say right from the outset, the ECU is clear of any errors and has been for a week now. I only had a misfire on cylinder no. 4 once, and 2 codes of running too lean on (bank 1/bank 2). But that is only because I was experimenting with the multiplier, and I got it quite a bit offset from the mark. Therefore, I have to assume the car is running at the moment within reasonable parameters as is, even with my hamfisted tuning. Also, it's driving on gas just as it were on petrol - no loss of power (maybe ever so slightly), no misfires, no erratic behaviours.

These are the stages I went through:

1. Autocalibration. It completed fine without throwing any errors, and it generated a basic multiplier line. The gas curve was plotting fine at idle, but increasingly on the rich side the more you got up into load/rpm compared to petrol.

2. Manual adjusting of the multiplier. I can do that reasonably well, as per picture (the upper tail end is now corrected). There is that 'Match multiplier' button in the STAG software which it suppose to auto adjust the multiplier but it doesn't work as well as manual correction, so I haven't used it.

I set off for about 2 hours driving today, me on the passenger seat with the laptop and missus driving away under my precise command :D

Now that the multiplier is straight (gas curve will drift slightly according to driving conditions, but so is petrol one), I started to make small corrections in the rpm map. Under at about 2500rpm I noticed it was plotting a bit far away from the curve, so I made an entry there to bring it in a bit. And so on... Now STFT are pretty much contained under 10% (and that is consistent with the real-time plotting I see on the map - no crazy leaps either side of the plotting curve), but occasionally I see a 15, even a 20% trim. I didn't have the eye quickness to catch the exact conditions, but that's maybe for another day. Am I on the right track?

I'm attaching a current picture. I see I just captured a 15% trim.

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:32 am 
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If you don't increase pressure the engine will likely run lean at combinations of high rpm and high load.
After adjusting pressure a full recal will be necessary.
Make all your adjustments on the multiplier at least for now. You may not need to enter any figures in the rpm correction table at all.
Still not adjusted (sloped off) the map below around 3ms like I said - this is why you have the -15% stft and only 1.6ms pinj at very low engine load (high vacuum when revving out of gear).
The peak at 10ms won't be correct, shouldn't be any peaks like that anywhere near 10ms (expect a single curved peak at the low pinj end of the scale around maybe 4ms). The peak and drop off on 10ms are probably around the load point at which the engine goes open loop - when it goes open loop the fuel trim figures will be pretty useless, you need to calibrate on lambda during open loop, expect to see a gradual curve.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:48 pm 
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Ok, from what I understand, the Pinj have to remain ideally the same on gas AND on petrol. Furthermore, when on gas, the Ginj have to be at a minimum 0.5ms more, at a maximum 1.3 times greater than the Pinj.

My Pinj on petrol is 2.6ms and on gas 3.1ms. The Ginj are between 1.8 and 2 times greater than Pinj. The number ratios are not pretty. Is that why you are suggesting to increase the pressure?

Anyway, I did increase the pressure and at 1.3 bar I have about the same Ping on gas and petrol, and Ginj is only 1.3 times greater than Ginj. Perfect numbers, BUT 1.3 bar is not the recommended pressure for the KME silver reducer, it's actually 1.0 bar. Plus, I didn't manage to get as good a tuning as before on the multiplier.

My Hanas have 2.1mm nozzles at the moment, which are good for 120-180bhp. The M54 is near the end of the scale at 167bhp.

Am I right to assume that if I ream the nozzles manually at say 2.3mm (2.4mm being the next size up off the shelf - good for 160-240bhp), I would be able to reduce the pressure to near 1 bar and be able to look at some pretty numbers for Pinj and Ginj? And then I will be able to tune to closer tolerances?


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:39 pm 
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Pinj should remain same on gas or petrol - But under open loop conditions (when you put your foot down) they will anyway, so under open loop conditions you need to tune according to lambda.

Yes that's why I suggested increasing the pressure. At 6000rpm your injectors (gas or petrol) only have a 20ms window in which to open, flow and close again in time for the next cycle. If you overshoot the injection window due to combination of too low pressure / too small nozzles then in order to flow enough gas for correct mixture the injectors would need to be open for greater than 100% of the available 20ms window, which is impossible, so in that situation the engine would run lean.

Don't worry about recommended pressure on the KME reducer.

Injector flow/power ratings are often at 1 bar, with more pressure they will flow more.

Yes you could increase nozzle size but I would go with increasing pressure in this case.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:27 pm 
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Thanks Simon.

I drove about for a bit with the pressure at 1.3 and I've noticed one thing - my auto gearbox is down-changing gear much earlier when going slightly uphill. Almost as if there is a torque problem. May very well be a tuning issue, but it definitely doesn't do it with a lower pressure.

So went ahead with plan B. I bored the nozzles, but surprisingly I had to go up to 2.5mm in order to get the multiplier around 1.2-1.3 and pressure just above 1.0 bar. That bore size is pretty much off the scale, in terms of the generic BHP bore guidelines from Hana and Stag. But works perfectly now and pulls just like petrol. Slight adjustments to the multiplier and this is where I am now:

https://youtu.be/RShkmH-Acsc

What do you think?

P.S. I've done the autocal at a gas temperature of 57˚C. Should I worry about significant map deviation at lower temperature?


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:26 pm 
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Replies won't be in my usual level of detail for a while as I'm currently on holiday in Cornwall... just waiting for the barbie to white over!

Changing gear differently may well have been a torque problem - due to incorrect tuning. But was looking like would have been possible to attain correct tuning with the 1.3bar.

Generic nozzle size guidance doesn't take into account individual engine specs - Although it is possible to calculate X nozzle size with Y pressure will flow enough gas for a cylinder making Z power, what is needed for best results is correct mixture with Ginj roughly = Pinj at full engine load.

Haven't been able to check your link due to poor internet from my phone in this area.

You should certainly check mixture at other gas temps, including shortly after changeover to LPG (after startup).

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:37 pm 
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No worries, whenever you get round to it. I'll take it for a drive tomorrow morning just after the change-over and monitor the trims. Will report back.


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:20 am 
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I just did a check with lower gas temp, not much change from the video above.

I've noticed one thing though, when low on gas and about to run out, I see the operating gas pressure rising from 1.06 to 1.2 bar. Is that normal?


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:56 am 
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E39LPG wrote:
I just did a check with lower gas temp, not much change from the video above.

I've noticed one thing though, when low on gas and about to run out, I see the operating gas pressure rising from 1.06 to 1.2 bar. Is that normal?


With an ideal reducer it wouldn't happen, but it isn't unusual to see this and to a much greater extent with some model reducers than others. Reducer pressure stability most often discussed is pressure over a wide range of flow rates but there are other aspects of pressure stability - same pressure over a wide range of reducer temperatures / same pressure over the range of tank supply temperatures and pressures (if you know one of the latter should be able to calculate the other). The worst offenders give a higher pressure when they are cool i.e. during engine warm-up when first switching to gas when vapour temps will also be cold, worse because with colder vapour it would be better to have lower pressure rather than higher pressure (to prevent the double whammy of Ginj needing to decrease twice, once for the higher pressure and again for lower temp - don't want ginj to ideally go below pinj and definitely don't want ginj to go below minimum ginj for the spec of injectors). For a constant draw-off rate, tank temp/pressure will remain fairly constant until it's very nearly empty, then the remaining volume of liquid needs to evaporate more quickly in relation to it's volume to maintain tank pressure, the overall cooling effect is the same as before but now acts on the smaller volume of liquid so the smaller volume gets cooler, the cooler liquid can lower overall tank temp so tank pressure is lowered.. best case scenario is then the reducer is fed with colder lower pressure liquid but at some point the reducer will receive liquid with vapour locks and then just vapour. The lower the flow rate to the engine and lower the reducer output pressure (related to manifold pressure), the more of the 'dregs' out of the tank you'll be able to use. All types of pressure stability will of course be effected by reducer design, I have wondered if stiffness of diaghprams at different temps and design of inlet jets (designed to handle liquid but under some conditions will handle vapour) has a lot to do with how different designs perform.. but experience tells me what to expect from most model reducers under all various conditions.

Have you noted gas pressure just after switching to LPG while the engine is still warming?

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:04 pm 
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Thanks for the explanation Simon. My reducer seems to be one of those less stable.

Here is a multiple snap shop at various gas and reducer temps. I think the higher pressure experienced yesterday was both because of reducer being unstable at start up and due to low gas on tank. Today was 1.23bar at startup, yesterday was I think as high as 1.27bar. Also, I've done the autocal at 1.10 bar (not 1.06) with gas at 59˚C and reducer at 80-90˚C.

But, the good news is the trims are still under 10%, even at 1.23 bar. I would be afraid of tweak it out of tune at this point.

Can we call this good, so we can move on to the fun part - the install? I want to take some picts throughout the installation so we can play the COP11 game :D

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:36 pm 
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As I might have expected, pressure is higher when it's cold, would expect it to be maybe a bit higher still in winter but the difference is only small and shouldn't cause any problems.

Whether or not to move onto other aspects is up to you, like I said before your multiplier map won't be correct as is - if fueling is correct with that map it could only really be due to entries in rpm correction or the OBD correction countering the multiplier.

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Are you referring to the video? So trims are not everything? I mean in closed loop of course. At 6000rpm lambda peaks at 0.8-0.9v, I thought that's the values I should see when tuning by lambda.

As for the 3ms sloping off the map, should I pull up on the multiplier on that narrow section? Just out of curiosity, why are the trims correct? I'm not running OBD or RPM correction by the way.


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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Referring to the pic of your map, the slope shouldn't go uphill after 8ms, should most likely need to fall at some point below around 3ms and the overall shape of the curve is likely wrong.

The green and blue points plotted on the map only go up to somewhere around 9ms maybe 10.5ms, this is the extent of pinj to which the self tuning plotted dots are a tuning aid, this will be because the system designers quite rightly expect many vehicles to be running open-loop above engine loads that need higher than this duration of injection. When open loop the position of the plotted dots wouldn't change regardless of calibration, adjusting calibration you just see lambda change as you adjust the multiplier, so dots would be meaningless for calibration purposes. This relates to the fact that self tuning systems are incapable of self tuning the high load/open loop end of the map. You checked lambda at 6000rpm (at what throttle?) and found mixture to be around correct but what is mixture like under other throttle opening conditions and maybe not quite as high revs? Would expect the curve to be fairly smooth and gradually flattening out towards the high load area of the map but never getting completely flat.

One of your pics shows you have or at least have had OBD correction enabled, in the pic the correction equates to leaning the mixture/ginj by 1.56%, likely in order to achieve the same fuel trim as the system earlier recorded when running on petrol - but would guess you don't know the conditions when the trims were recorded? It is a given that reducer temp was at least 70c and the car was at idle when those trims recorded but had the car been parked up idling for a long while just before the trims were recorded... and regards all the other trims that were recorded, again had the car been parked up idling for a long time, were they recorded during a steady cruise or during acceleration/deceleration (which can affect trims), etc... Again touching on one of the reasons autotune systems cannot achieve the same results as calibration by a good and experienced pro.

You may have noted correct trims - at least at the load/rpm points where you've checked - because: maybe haven't checked all closed loop load/rpm points yet, map may be OKish for areas where it actually is running closed loop (slope down from 4ms to 8ms may not be too far out but the rise on your multiplier line after 8ms may loosely correspond to where it goes open loop), if the OBD is still active this may be working to bring the trims correct even with an incorrect multiplier. In the latter situation, because the engine goes open loop momentarily when you abruptly change throttle position, trims would read as OK shortly after it goes closed loop but there would be a brief period when mixture could be far from correct while it is running open loop.

Only seen pics of the engine running at around idle, any pics (showing pinj/ginj/pressures/trims/trim correction/lambda) at around 6ms, 8ms, 10ms, 12ms, full load and at other rpms (2500 and 4500)?

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: New e39 diy install
PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Ok, it looks like you missed on the youtube clip:

https://youtu.be/RShkmH-Acsc

I did a complete retune since those pictures.


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